dogman dan
1 PW
Here we go again. Wearing a helmet has saved my life more than once. But don't make it a law for adults. I don't wear helmets out of fear, but out of certianty that I will crash.
Helmets Part 1,489,348 - To Wear Or Not To Wear
- Thread starter knoxie
- Start date
MattyCiii
100 kW
Agreed, helmets should not be required, and due care should be given to "awareness" campaigns to ensure they are not "fear generating" campaigns.
That said, I recently upgraded my clod weather melon cap from a bike helmet to a full-face (modular) motorcycle helmet. Why? for the protection yes, and it's cold here - the m-cycle helmet replaces balaclava, hat, goggles and bike helmet. Oh and it's a great mount for front and rear "head lights". But I would not likely wear a helmet at all except for the inconsiderate, aggressive and yes criminally negligent automobile drivers.
After a week of use it's a keeper, but my neck muscles still need to catch up. And in true ES spirit, I'm already planning to upgrade the front vent with either an air scoop (or possibly even forced air) - need better de-fogging of the visor ("pinlock" system on order).
That said, I recently upgraded my clod weather melon cap from a bike helmet to a full-face (modular) motorcycle helmet. Why? for the protection yes, and it's cold here - the m-cycle helmet replaces balaclava, hat, goggles and bike helmet. Oh and it's a great mount for front and rear "head lights". But I would not likely wear a helmet at all except for the inconsiderate, aggressive and yes criminally negligent automobile drivers.
After a week of use it's a keeper, but my neck muscles still need to catch up. And in true ES spirit, I'm already planning to upgrade the front vent with either an air scoop (or possibly even forced air) - need better de-fogging of the visor ("pinlock" system on order).
Ykick
1 GW
I crashed once without a helmet - suffered a concussion and mild skull fracture. One year later, 'crashed with a helmet and didn't suffer any head injury. Not exactly scientific test results but in both instances my head hit pavement at significant speed.
Lesson learned - now I almost always wear a helmet and suggest (preach, yeah right...) that any rider should wear one. Not because I'm part of a conspiracy but because I've lived and experienced it both ways and here at ES we share our knowledge and experience. Ideally, without ridicule and vitriol.
Personally, I don't agree with the laws requiring helmets (bicycle/motorcycle) but if government is gonna require 'em, car/truck drivers should be required to wear 'em too.
And why not wear a helmet getting out of bed? If your bed's moving +20MPH probably not a bad idea. Otherwise, I can only interpret that as some type of rhetoric to insult those who wear helmets.
Lesson learned - now I almost always wear a helmet and suggest (preach, yeah right...) that any rider should wear one. Not because I'm part of a conspiracy but because I've lived and experienced it both ways and here at ES we share our knowledge and experience. Ideally, without ridicule and vitriol.
Personally, I don't agree with the laws requiring helmets (bicycle/motorcycle) but if government is gonna require 'em, car/truck drivers should be required to wear 'em too.
And why not wear a helmet getting out of bed? If your bed's moving +20MPH probably not a bad idea. Otherwise, I can only interpret that as some type of rhetoric to insult those who wear helmets.
Lessss
1 MW
At 10 seconds in watch what side of the car hits. Gee isn't that where bicyclists drive? notice how there is LOTS of space on the other side of the car to the pole!
View attachment dsfg.png
[youtube]8zDz6iB3IhA[/youtube]
Gordo
100 kW
Ypedal said:
Perhaps there are other reasons for a 40mph impact? The cyclist traveling at a very "safe feeling" 10mph and the vehicle going 30mph. The young female airhead with the cell phone in one hand and a double double in the other is a zombie. If you survive one of these, ask the cop why the young lady is covered with coffee and to please pull her cell phone records. These facts will give her lawyer pause to think and greatly influence the settlement. So will the fact that you were wearing a helmet. The damage to the helmet is also very strong evidence.
John in CR
100 TW
Gordo,
Nice point about pulling cell phone records. That should become a standard for all accidents.
Nice point about pulling cell phone records. That should become a standard for all accidents.
Evoforce
10 kW
I am one of those that have voted against seatbelt and helmet laws. I think it should be personal choice. I find it interesting that helmets are not mandated when driving in our cars. After all, the same logic should apply while driving your car. People die from head injuries in vehicles regularly. I ride motorcycle and in our state we voted down a helmet law. I generally ride motorcycle without one but offer passengers the option. My daughter rides in my sidecar with one on. My electric bike I usually ride with one on and it has saved me from some damage in a 40 mph crash. Do I wear it all the time? No, but when I am out in heavy city traffic, I usually do. I wear a half helmet. Motorcycles aren't seen in traffic many times just as bicycles but people (if they see me on my electric bike) still assume my speed is slower and this puts me at greater risk. Out on a path ride, I may assess my risk as less and may not wear a helmet. I believe this should be personal choice and we all have different comfort and risk levels. I also think that e-bikes should not be regulated to 20 mph. 
Those that want to go slow, let um. Those that want to go faster, let um without license, registration or other restrictions other than posted speed limit.
Those that want to go slow, let um. Those that want to go faster, let um without license, registration or other restrictions other than posted speed limit.Attachments
John in CR
100 TW
Here's an interesting read about how safe cycling really is. http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm We should all stop promoting the notion that cycling isn't safe. The fact that we are we are more exposed to injury in the event of an accident is irrelevant to overall safety. Things we can do to promote real safety are to promote cycling, teach and follow safe riding practices, push for more cycling infrastructure, avoid cycling at night and if it's unavoidable light yourself up, etc.
Here's more interesting statistics http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac-safety.html Look at the Helmet topic 2/3rds of the way down. Helmet use soared in the 90's, and serious head injuries soared in that same period.
Here's more interesting statistics http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac-safety.html Look at the Helmet topic 2/3rds of the way down. Helmet use soared in the 90's, and serious head injuries soared in that same period.
Evoforce
10 kW
Again, Insurance companies and all their money making rules for the rest of us so they can pocket more of our money.
Sheriff Jon
100 W
Oh Jeez, not this **** again.
I live in a state where wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, or a scooter is mandatory. It is also mandatory for people under 18 years old to wear a helmet when riding a bicycle. I do not whine about it, I do not complain about it or point fingers at big business and yell CONSPIRACY. I would wear a helmet even if it was not the law because I value the contents of my head.
My Daughter is now 18 years old. But when she was about 5 she was rollerblading on the sidewalk. She had just learned how to rollerblade and was going very slow, but she got her wheels stuck between the sidewalk and the grass and she went down. Luckily she was wearing her little pink helmet. She cried of course because it startled her more than anything else. But about 30 minutes later she complained of a headache and upset stomach, plus her eyes just did not look right. We took her to a local urgent care and it turns out she had a mild concussion, and the Dr told us if she had not been wearing a helmet....there likely would have been much more severe, maybe even permanent brain damage.
If some of you do not want to wear a Helmet fine, that is your choice, and your head. But NOBODY is going to convince me that wearing a Helmet is some kind of conspiracy or more dangerous because it causes complacency or people to take more chances. Wearing a Helmet is just common sense.
But then again I guess Common sense.....just ain't all that Common!
I live in a state where wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, or a scooter is mandatory. It is also mandatory for people under 18 years old to wear a helmet when riding a bicycle. I do not whine about it, I do not complain about it or point fingers at big business and yell CONSPIRACY. I would wear a helmet even if it was not the law because I value the contents of my head.
My Daughter is now 18 years old. But when she was about 5 she was rollerblading on the sidewalk. She had just learned how to rollerblade and was going very slow, but she got her wheels stuck between the sidewalk and the grass and she went down. Luckily she was wearing her little pink helmet. She cried of course because it startled her more than anything else. But about 30 minutes later she complained of a headache and upset stomach, plus her eyes just did not look right. We took her to a local urgent care and it turns out she had a mild concussion, and the Dr told us if she had not been wearing a helmet....there likely would have been much more severe, maybe even permanent brain damage.
If some of you do not want to wear a Helmet fine, that is your choice, and your head. But NOBODY is going to convince me that wearing a Helmet is some kind of conspiracy or more dangerous because it causes complacency or people to take more chances. Wearing a Helmet is just common sense.
But then again I guess Common sense.....just ain't all that Common!
Attachments
Gordo
100 kW
John in CR said:
John;
I'm always open to learn, so I read the article. I thought I might find twisted statistics but did not. My only thought is perhaps a sudden increase of first time cyclists?
I have been riding motorcycles since the 1950's and have followed the helmet controversy carefully. I also note we had a sudden increase in recorded head injuries when helmets became mandatory here in the 1960's. All of this data is hard to interpret when you don't know the historical baseline. Who was collecting data from what sources and when did the data collection methods change and by how much.
Wearing a helmet was a personal choice I made before I had a drivers license. I made this choice from my limited experience in the squared circle. Having be in various stages of unconsciousness 15 times before age 18, because of my lack of skill, I wish to save what little neural activity is left.
John in CR
100 TW
I thought about that helmet stat too, and I think a big factor may be a big change in the nature of biking over that same period with much more mountain biking, which is inherently more prone to crashes. I don't know if that's true, but it seems plausible. Isn't that the period when mountain bikes first became quite common? I don't think first timers explains the increase, because cycling overall saw a significant decline in that period.
I don't believe comparisons with motorcycle helmets is valid, because they offer far greater protection, and typical bicycle helmets only offer protection only within a fairly narrow angle of impact centered directly on top of the head.
I have no doubt that helmets make people feel safer, and this safer feeling leads to less care and riskier behavior on average. I also have no doubt that since helmets became THE safety item, that other things that really do make people safer have become a distant second. These 2 factors are the likely reasons that increased helmet use hasn't produced the intended result.
When I was a kid and later when I was in college, riding a bike wasn't considered dangerous. Is it coincidence that helmets became popular and recommended that cycling became considered a dangerous activity? I don't think so. I don't buy into some conspiracy either, but it's definitely the result of fear mongering, and I refuse to be a victim.
Biking is a pretty safe activity based on the statistics, and that's for average cyclists. If you eliminate the stupid mistakes of the average cyclists, avoid riding at night, avoid riding within door reach of parked cars, and stay away from the edges of the road where dangerous drains and other hazards are common, then it becomes a very safe activity. It's so safe in fact that there are many other everyday activities for which helmets are never worn, but wearing a helmet would improve your odds more than putting one on for cycling. I'm not going to wear a helmet walking around the house, whether the floor is wet or not, and I'm not going to wear one walking down the sidewalk or riding in a car either. I do wear one on my bike for the rare occasions that I perceive a higher than normal risk for that ride. Otherwise my odds are so good that I'll take my chances just like I do around the house, and to me it wouldn't be logical to only wear a helmet while biking.
I don't believe comparisons with motorcycle helmets is valid, because they offer far greater protection, and typical bicycle helmets only offer protection only within a fairly narrow angle of impact centered directly on top of the head.
I have no doubt that helmets make people feel safer, and this safer feeling leads to less care and riskier behavior on average. I also have no doubt that since helmets became THE safety item, that other things that really do make people safer have become a distant second. These 2 factors are the likely reasons that increased helmet use hasn't produced the intended result.
When I was a kid and later when I was in college, riding a bike wasn't considered dangerous. Is it coincidence that helmets became popular and recommended that cycling became considered a dangerous activity? I don't think so. I don't buy into some conspiracy either, but it's definitely the result of fear mongering, and I refuse to be a victim.
Biking is a pretty safe activity based on the statistics, and that's for average cyclists. If you eliminate the stupid mistakes of the average cyclists, avoid riding at night, avoid riding within door reach of parked cars, and stay away from the edges of the road where dangerous drains and other hazards are common, then it becomes a very safe activity. It's so safe in fact that there are many other everyday activities for which helmets are never worn, but wearing a helmet would improve your odds more than putting one on for cycling. I'm not going to wear a helmet walking around the house, whether the floor is wet or not, and I'm not going to wear one walking down the sidewalk or riding in a car either. I do wear one on my bike for the rare occasions that I perceive a higher than normal risk for that ride. Otherwise my odds are so good that I'll take my chances just like I do around the house, and to me it wouldn't be logical to only wear a helmet while biking.
deronmoped
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2008
- Messages
- 706
I figured it out.
Most of these people that are dying on bikes should not be on them in the first place. Riding a bike is as safe as the person doing the riding. If you have crashed you should be seriously looking at the way you ride, there is absolutely no reason to crash. Make sure your equipment is in good shape, take the safe route, ride like they are out to get you and don't take chances.
The other night I was coming home over the mountains in a rain storm, guess what I saw, two idiots on the side of the freeway riding their bikes. You could see by their packs they were doing a long distant ride. The guys should of found a place to camp before nightfall, they were asking for it, doing what they were doing.
Deron.
Most of these people that are dying on bikes should not be on them in the first place. Riding a bike is as safe as the person doing the riding. If you have crashed you should be seriously looking at the way you ride, there is absolutely no reason to crash. Make sure your equipment is in good shape, take the safe route, ride like they are out to get you and don't take chances.
The other night I was coming home over the mountains in a rain storm, guess what I saw, two idiots on the side of the freeway riding their bikes. You could see by their packs they were doing a long distant ride. The guys should of found a place to camp before nightfall, they were asking for it, doing what they were doing.
Deron.
dogman dan
1 PW
Bicycle equivilant of what we see here a lot. Harley Davidson Suicidecles.
The fact remains though, you can fall down and go boom.
The fact remains though, you can fall down and go boom.
grindz145
1 MW
dogman said:
Amen, brain buckets or helmetless riders, are people that sincerely do not care about their own lives, or are literally, too stupid to be alive.
Bicycle helmet are pieces of shit, but I can name several friends who have avoided serious injuries by wearing them. I think the BMX style helmets are alot better and of course a full face downhill helmet (or motorcycle fullface) is the best for ebikes. It should NOT be mandated by the government, but you should wear them, in most cases.
Sheriff Jon
100 W
grindz145 said:
As I see it...the reason that the government "mandates" use of a Helmet, is because if you or anyone falls down and goes boom, cracks your head open (wearing a Helmet or not) the local authorities (the Government) cannot stand idly by and say "Oh look at the stupid idiot who 'chose' not to wear a Helmet. Too bad" They have to come to your aid and try to help you and if necessary save your life. All of this heroic but un asked for attention costs money, and especially if someone ends up needing constant or prolonged medical care due to an unpreventable head injury. Guess who ends up paying for that medical attention? YOU and I do, we all do whether we like it or not.
We may not like the rules and laws that the Government has to put into place to protect us from ourselves, but where are ya gona go if you do not want such protection? The middle east ?
I for one, will take the laws, the mandates and the protection any time :wink:
Spacey
100 kW
Having face planted from a 40mph KDX200cc motocross accident and wearing a full face motocross helmet my only injury was being knocked unconscious as my chin hit the ground first and also my left thumb being torn off only to be held on by the skin.
Had I not been wearing a helmet my face would have been very badly damaged. My motocross friends used to take the piss out of me for wearing a full body armour kit yet I was one of the few to not break any ribs lol. The one time I did not wear my motocross boots I shattered my big toe.
On my ebike I look like a twat for wearing a full face motocross helmet instead of a push bike helmet, but I would rather look A twat then be a dead cool.
Had I not been wearing a helmet my face would have been very badly damaged. My motocross friends used to take the piss out of me for wearing a full body armour kit yet I was one of the few to not break any ribs lol. The one time I did not wear my motocross boots I shattered my big toe.
On my ebike I look like a twat for wearing a full face motocross helmet instead of a push bike helmet, but I would rather look A twat then be a dead cool.
John in CR
100 TW
For the accident prone who need those bicycle helmets and think it's stupid not to wear one at all times on a bike, it's even more stupid not to wear one around the house or walking down the sidewalk or riding in a car, because your chances of a serious head injury are higher there.
Sheriff Jon
100 W
John in CR said:
No matter how skilled you may be (or think you are) at riding and avoiding an accident (un planned mishap) we also share the road with idiots driving in big SUV's, mini vans and expensive sports cars while mindlessly blabbing on their cell phone or putting on makeup. YOU may want to trust those other drivers and assume they are as skilled as you are. But not me brother. I will take all the added insurance that I can get, like wearing a Helmet when it comes to sharing the roads with cars, buses, trucks and motor homes :wink:
Although bicycle helmets were mandated in many places for kids in the 1990's, helmet use among adults grew voluntarily. It was interesting to read in the link above that even though helmet use increased, head injuries increased faster. The article states that bicycle use grew dramatically across the board in the 1990's, but IMHO, it fails to mention that cell-phone use among drivers dramatically increased at the same time.
The two things may not be related. The increased use of cell-phones by drivers may not be a direct influence on the number of bicycle head-injuries that occurred, yet the fact that increased cell-phone usage by drivers was not even mentioned as a "possible" influencing factor gives me pause...
edit: when did "texting" get popular with drivers? just curious if it was in the 1990's, I don't know...
"...Each year, bicycle crashes kill about 900 people; about 200 of those killed are children under age 15. Each year, about 567,000 people go to hospital emergency departments with bicycle-related injuries; about 350,000 of those injured are children under 15. Of those children, about 130,000 suffer head injuries..."
This was about injuries in the US, the same article (linked to above) mentions that US bicyclists are manytimes more likely to be in a car-related accident than German or Dutch bicyclists. Yet...it doesnt mention the high per-cent of dedicated bike lanes in Germany or Holland.
Drawing conclusions from half of the pertinent info reminds me of a story.
A young lad was taking a walk through the park with his father, when they passed two dogs mating in the usual fashion. The boy asked "What are they doing?", and the father replied that they were "making puppies".
The next morning, the boy awoke early, and hearing some odd noises, he walked into his parents room. He interrupted them in a common sexual position, and asked what they were doing. The father replied that mommie and daddie were making a baby brother for him. After a slight pause, the boy said "would you mind flipping mommie over? I think I'd really rather have a puppy"
The two things may not be related. The increased use of cell-phones by drivers may not be a direct influence on the number of bicycle head-injuries that occurred, yet the fact that increased cell-phone usage by drivers was not even mentioned as a "possible" influencing factor gives me pause...
edit: when did "texting" get popular with drivers? just curious if it was in the 1990's, I don't know...
"...Each year, bicycle crashes kill about 900 people; about 200 of those killed are children under age 15. Each year, about 567,000 people go to hospital emergency departments with bicycle-related injuries; about 350,000 of those injured are children under 15. Of those children, about 130,000 suffer head injuries..."
This was about injuries in the US, the same article (linked to above) mentions that US bicyclists are manytimes more likely to be in a car-related accident than German or Dutch bicyclists. Yet...it doesnt mention the high per-cent of dedicated bike lanes in Germany or Holland.
Drawing conclusions from half of the pertinent info reminds me of a story.
A young lad was taking a walk through the park with his father, when they passed two dogs mating in the usual fashion. The boy asked "What are they doing?", and the father replied that they were "making puppies".
The next morning, the boy awoke early, and hearing some odd noises, he walked into his parents room. He interrupted them in a common sexual position, and asked what they were doing. The father replied that mommie and daddie were making a baby brother for him. After a slight pause, the boy said "would you mind flipping mommie over? I think I'd really rather have a puppy"
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
Two valid (IMO) points:
1. Helmets should not be mandated because the benefits of the increased ridership of no helmet laws outweighs the (statistically unknown) benefits of increased helmet usage.
Not to mention a similarly sized fee for motorists with the proceeds going to more bicycle paths, more and better bike lanes etc.
3. The one person study (insufficient sample size) in which drivers gave wider berths to cyclists without helmets and even wider berths to cyclists with with wigs (looked like women) is interesting.
Maybe the safest option is wearing a helmet and a large reflective sign on your back with something like :lol: :
Two valid (IMO) points:
1. Helmets should not be mandated because the benefits of the increased ridership of no helmet laws outweighs the (statistically unknown) benefits of increased helmet usage.
2. If the government/politicians are serious about reducing injuries to bicyclists (dicey at best) a much more effective strategy (for example) would be a tax on bicyclists equal to the amount of a cheap helmet. Then use the resulting funds for a campaign to encourage motorists to be more aware of and concerned with safe driving in the proximity of bicycles. Peppering cities with signs like:Sheriff Jon said:
Not to mention a similarly sized fee for motorists with the proceeds going to more bicycle paths, more and better bike lanes etc.
3. The one person study (insufficient sample size) in which drivers gave wider berths to cyclists without helmets and even wider berths to cyclists with with wigs (looked like women) is interesting.
Maybe the safest option is wearing a helmet and a large reflective sign on your back with something like :lol: :
AussieJester
1 TW
spinningmagnets said:
Increase in helmet and bicyle use in those times might have a whole lot to do with BMX craze taking off in the late 80's early to mid 90's ... just a thought.
@ Sheriff Jon, i couldn't agree more with everything you have posted on this thread well said.
KiM
Sheriff Jon
100 W
:lol: Your puppy joke reminded me of a similar tale.
One day little Johnny came home from school and ran up stairs to go to the bathroom. He burst through the door to see his Mother just stepping out of the shower. He eyed her up and down and puzzled, he pointed to her patch of fur and asked..."What is that Mommy"? Embarrassed his Mom said..."Err, um
that is my wash cloth, no go downstairs and let me dry off".
Later that year she gave birth to a bouncy baby sister and had to be shaved. About a week later he burst in on her again as she was getting out of the shower, and again he was puzzled as he pointed to her now shaved area and said...
"What happened to your wash cloth Mommy?" Embarrassed his Mom said..."Err, um I lost it, now get out of here. "That is OK Mommy, I think the maid found it. She is down stairs washing Daddy's face" 
One day little Johnny came home from school and ran up stairs to go to the bathroom. He burst through the door to see his Mother just stepping out of the shower. He eyed her up and down and puzzled, he pointed to her patch of fur and asked..."What is that Mommy"? Embarrassed his Mom said..."Err, um
that is my wash cloth, no go downstairs and let me dry off".Later that year she gave birth to a bouncy baby sister and had to be shaved. About a week later he burst in on her again as she was getting out of the shower, and again he was puzzled as he pointed to her now shaved area and said...
"What happened to your wash cloth Mommy?" Embarrassed his Mom said..."Err, um
I lost it, now get out of here. "That is OK Mommy, I think the maid found it. She is down stairs washing Daddy's face"
grindz145
1 MW
Sheriff Jon said:grindz145 said:
As I see it...the reason that the government "mandates" use of a Helmet, is because if you or anyone falls down and goes boom, cracks your head open (wearing a Helmet or not) the local authorities (the Government) cannot stand idly by and say "Oh look at the stupid idiot who 'chose' not to wear a Helmet. Too bad" They have to come to your aid and try to help you and if necessary save your life. All of this heroic but un asked for attention costs money, and especially if someone ends up needing constant or prolonged medical care due to an unpreventable head injury. Guess who ends up paying for that medical attention? YOU and I do, we all do whether we like it or not.
We may not like the rules and laws that the Government has to put into place to protect us from ourselves, but where are ya gona go if you do not want such protection? The middle east ?
I was never a fan of this argument, though I think it's sound logic. The problem is that stupid people do stupid things all the time and have to be saved by (government funded) support. The only way we can really be free is if we take control of our own actions and allow others to let other live as they see fit.
Funny how a helmet discussion ends up in deep philosophy....
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