markz
100 TW
<<<<^^^^What he said back there!
+1 for Direct Drive's!
+1 for Direct Drive's!
Help Me Build My Daily Commuter?
- Thread starter reluctantsuburban
- Start date
wturber
1 MW
MadRhino said:
I usually stay out of the discussions on handling because "handling" can mean such different things to different people in different contexts. But MadRhino's comment about a light handling front resonates with me. My bike is very rear heavy. I've got a heavy DD motor and I hang my batteries on a rear rack. My bike is a hardtail and I think that makes for a good commuter/car replacement because you its easier to hang a lot of stuff back there. And that, of course makes the back heavy. I've got a modified milk crate on the back of my bike now and I've loaded it up with 28 16.9 oz bottles of water a number of times to re-stock our water at the studio. That's about 30 lbs. My rack mounted batteries are 20 lbs, and then there's the hub motor itself that weighs about 15 lbs. So the bike can get very rear heavy and the front remains light. But even with 65 lbs the bike handles fine in that it is stable, easy to steer and stop fast and predictably. When I add some weight to the front by carrying stuff in the front basket, that tends to affect handling way more than adding it to the rear. I think of my bike as being analogous to a large sedan or a small truck. It is not a sports car. The Chas58 bike is more analogous to a sports car.
A heavy rear hub is just fine for a commuter on flat ground. For your purposes, I think the main reason to consider a geared hub motor would be for the better ride-ability when you have no power and somewhat lighter weight. Even so, I'd put that motor on the rear. The rear gears and possibly the disc rotor tend to disguise the presence of the motor. But if you are legal and riding legally, there's not a whole lot of reason to hide the motor IMO.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
MadRhino said:
Haha! I love this summary.
I really like the idea of a rear DD in a FS frame if I can find a good one. So far, I am leaning towards the DD hub suggested by motomech:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ebikeling-...-Conversion-Kit/312058788232?var=610800250059
Here are two frames I've been looking at locally. Anyone care to weigh in on these?
BMC Softail: https://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/bik/d/bmc-softail-26-mountain-bike/6683093848.html
Trek 8000: https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d/mens-trek-mountain-bikes-8000/6688323509.html
For battery, I'm assuming just an em3ev set up at 48 or 52v to get a bit more speed.
My other options would be: purchasing a kit from West Coast Electrics for the FS Jubilee Motobecane or just purchasing a prebuilt.
I think I can justify spending a little more (a little over $2k) if this truly does become a car replacement, which I would like it to.
MadRhino
100 GW
A good FS build is not within your budget. You will be better with a good DJ that is stiff and robust, than a fishtailing FS. I build on old school DH racing frames, bikes that can compete with motorcycles. FS is a must at high speed, but building and tuning a good FS does require more time and money.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
Thanks Wturber--I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Especially sports car vs sedan--it's easy when reading these threads on a build to get caught up in how cool a build is and not think about what practically will make the most sense. I think DD fits my needs pretty perfectly.wturber said:
Now I just need to find the right bike for conversion...
markz
100 TW
Rear is heavy! Oh I heard that!
Move battery to the triangle, improves it somewhat, depending on rear hub motor weight.
Front Suspension! Oh I heard that!
Gotta have it, especially with ebicycles.
Full Suspension! Oh my nuts and butte would love that!
Me on 36V, tree roots, curbs, shifted sidewalks, pathway root bumps, park grass bumps all make da nuts and butte tender, sometimes. I just kinda sit up for a bit, but sometimes I miss them bumps. I ride roads, sidewalks, pathways, park fields, parking lots, I'd say my max is 45kph.
Bike Buying! Oh I hear that!
Buy a good quality used bicycle, and do not skimp. Research research research.
If your going FS, then buy a FS with lots of triangle space.
I really need a full suspension aka FS bicycle. My body parts would fall back in love with me again.
Move battery to the triangle, improves it somewhat, depending on rear hub motor weight.
Front Suspension! Oh I heard that!
Gotta have it, especially with ebicycles.
Full Suspension! Oh my nuts and butte would love that!
Me on 36V, tree roots, curbs, shifted sidewalks, pathway root bumps, park grass bumps all make da nuts and butte tender, sometimes. I just kinda sit up for a bit, but sometimes I miss them bumps. I ride roads, sidewalks, pathways, park fields, parking lots, I'd say my max is 45kph.
Bike Buying! Oh I hear that!
Buy a good quality used bicycle, and do not skimp. Research research research.
If your going FS, then buy a FS with lots of triangle space.
I really need a full suspension aka FS bicycle. My body parts would fall back in love with me again.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
Would anyone be able to weigh in this Trek Fuel 80?
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d/trek-fuel-80-full-suspension/6711453532.html
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/bik/d/trek-fuel-80-full-suspension/6711453532.html
wturber
1 MW
I like the brand, frame size and the space in the main triangle. Some people will knock it for not having disc brakes. You can search the forums for tons on that debate. For your intended speeds, the caliper brakes should be fine with the right brake shoes and perhaps with some brake boosters. Speaking of the brakes, make sure your kit has a brake shoe compatible wheel rim.reluctantsuburban said:
I know nothing about the quality of the suspension or how the rear suspension will work with a relatively heavy DD motor. But given that your intent is simply to absorb road hazard bumps, potholes and the like, I'd think it would be fine. Hopefully some of the guys who know more about suspensions will chime in.
It will take a bit of fiddling/cleverness if you want to add a beefy rear rack for hauling stuff. The same might be true for fenders if you decide to add them. I'd also point out that the flat handlebar has a fairly forward stem. I'm imagining your riding posture may be less upright than many people would prefer. Though you are a bit on the tall side, so it may be fine. Just something to think about.
The price seems right. But be aware that you'll probably spend money on brake shoes, brake boosters, maybe a new stem or handlebar, seat?, new chain?, maybe larger chainring? Maybe some slick road tires that are better for commuting. Just pointing this out as these things can creep in and affect your real world build budget.
motomech
10 MW
reluctantsuburban said:
Good donor bike, especially if it is in gd. shape(looks like it)
21.5" frame is what you want, at 6'1", no prob. w/ stand-over height
LImited 3" suspension travel, but enough for the street.
Fox Float is solid unit, you will need an air pump. Rebuild kit is cheap and easy to install.
Big frame triangle means Falcon or Em3ev frame bag will fit nicely. Will need a guard(plastic)to keep bag from rubbing on shock.
Forks have disc caliper mounting lugs, I would install mech. frt. disc
Will need steering stem extender to raise H.bars
Seat stem mounted rack(no stays)and keep the load lite
Maybe clearance for 48T frt. chain-ring(has 44T now)
Gear-set/shifter ok for ebike. cassette has 11T sm. gear-good
wtuber has gd. point about kit rim possibly not being compatible w/ rim brk.s
I would use Ebay geared mini motor kit I linked(OP keeps calling it DD, it is GEARED) on frt. whl. to save on extra money needed for DNP free whl. and spend rest of money on 48V or 52V(if compatible w/ kit controller?) triangle batt. & bag and tires(WTB Slicks{they have tread}w/ flat guard
Controller, extra wires and connectors can go in frame bag making install clean and easy. Big size of kit controller means it won't over-heat
W/ Fox shock equipped bike this cheap, there is absolutely no reason to go hard-tail.
Frame bag in 21.5" frame;
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
wturber said:
Hey wturber--thanks again for your feedback. Very helpful. The rear rack seems like it may be a challenge, as that is something that I don't think I can commute without.
I think you are right on listing out all of these extras, but considering what a deal I am (potentially) getting here on the bike, I think I can justify the upgrades. Do you know how I would evaluate how large of a chainring I can fit? And do you have tires that you would strongly recommend? I have seen Schwalbe Marathon Plus really consistently recommended here.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
motomech said:
Sorry for incorrectly labeling that as a DD motomech. I see now it is geared--my mistake!
I think a front disc, air shock rebuild kit, and air pump are all reasonable. You prefer the WTB Slicks over Marathon Plus? That's what I have seen recommended most frequently so far.
Do you think I could get away with rigging together a rear rack with some p clamps? I really like my current pannier set up--if I could retain it that would be ideal.
Would I just reach out to the seller on ebay to ask on the to ask about the rim break compatibility? Or is there a way for me to visually confirm?
Sorry to ask on this, but I guess I don't understand the purpose of the freewheel. I need to install that on the front wheel where I would install the hub motor?
Finally, how can I tell what size crankset/chainring will fit? I searched a bit on google but I'm coming up empty.
Thanks for your patience with all of these questions. Lots that I don't know, and I find out more that I don't know every time I post a question
markz
100 TW
https://knowyourbike.com/trek/fuel/80
2001-2006
6 versions
2001-2006
6 versions
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
markz said:
yes - based on color and brake, I think I narrowed it down to the 2003 model. Thanks for the link!
wturber
1 MW
reluctantsuburban said:
A seatpost rack is fine so long as you don't load it up with a lot of weight. For instance, clothes, lunch etc. Also, There are probably ways that you could strengthen it if needed. Here's a link to my first round of seatpost rack strengthening. You'd probably need to look for a mount point lower on your seatpost somewhere. BTW, I think I've seen people add a rack to the suspended rear triangle as well. And don't discount using a front basket or front rack.
I'm running a Panaracer RiBMo 26 x 2.0 tire on the back and a WTB Slick Flatguard 26 x 1.85 on the front. These seem to be good tires, but they are not necessarily the best. I put over 4000 miles on the cheap tire that came with my kit. And I only retired it because it was gashed by (presumably) glass and the gash continued to grow despite my large interior tire patch. In my experience, a robust flat resistant rear tire is more important on the back than the front. So you might want to get a premium rear road tire like a Schwalbe Marathon or Marathon Plus, and maybe put the kit tire on the front to get some good miles out of it. There are tons of opinions and threads on tires. They are probably worth reading.
Chainring clearance depends on chainstay geometry and the offset of the chainrings. The distance between teeth is .5", so a 52 tooth chainring will have a diameter of about 8.25". You can compare that to the diameter of the chainrings on the bike and get a decent estimate.
motomech
10 MW
I have used both and prefer the WTB. It's a much newer design and the flat guard layer is thinner, which means less of a "squirmy" feeling flat-guard tires impart. I combine w/ the Forte extra thick tubes, so some of the squirminess is still there, but it's worth it to not get flats. Here in Az. we get goat's head thorns washed into the road after a monsoon and this combo resists them very well. The compound is softer than the Marathon, which is great in the wet, but they probably will wear faster. Haven't had mine long enough to know. Above all, they look kool
https://www.performancebike.com/shop/wtb-slick-flatguard-sport-tire-performance-exclusive-50-8150
There are ways. They make rear racks for suspension bikes, pricey. dogman uses stem mount rack and fabs a pair of supports. It is not a difficult mod. Search his posts
The description for that kit is fairly detailed and when it doesn't say "rim brake compatible", I think it is safe to say it is not. I have never had rim brk.s, but I think the difference is the angle of the rim side, hard to know from pic. Maybe someone who knows rim brk.s will chime in.
There are two types of rear gear-sets, a Cassette, which fits on a spline, and a free whl., which screws on the threaded nub. Look at kit pic and you will see the threaded nub. Also, in the foreground, you will see a free whl. The problem w/ the one shown, the smallest gear is only a 12T or 13T. Only the Enoch DNP (about $40 w/ shipping) comes w/ an 11T gear. Every bit of high gear you can get is important if you want to pedal in the mid 20's mph. There are a few hub motor that accept a cassette, BPM C, Q100 C and Q128 C. But Q100 C does not come in mid-speed(260), which rules it out for your build. Many here consider the DNP a necessary evil. They are heavy and somewhat course. I don't mind them, except for the cost and the fact that they can be hard to get off once they have used(pedal force tightens them on the hub).
Except for trying it, you can't. Both of my bikes, the 48T just clears the chain stay. If you have to go w/ a 46T, you will only be out 15 bucks or so.
So, frt. mount and disc conversion eliminates rim compatibilty prob. and the need to buy DNP
I rode the 2WD in pic all summer in Mexico on frt motor(Q100H) only(Melted rear motor wire climbing hills)
Here in Az. I ride this bike;
Q100C low-speed(201) on 55 Volts of LiPoly(does 22 mph)
The rear drive feels a little better, but difference is slight.
Sometimes w/ the frt. drive, if the whl. is not straight and the throttle is "stabbed", it wants to take off at a tangent. But you are a big guy and it won't get out of control if you muscle it back in line.
So, unless someone comes on here and tells you different, to use that kit w/ rear mount, you will have to figure on relacing a rim brk. rear rim(Not expensive, unless you pay a shop to do it).
Note steering stem extender
motomech
10 MW
Wtuber posted while I was typing.
The Q100 mini is a little smaller than the Ebiking mini, but, as you can see, the difference in size between a DD and a mini geared is profound!
The Q100 mini is a little smaller than the Ebiking mini, but, as you can see, the difference in size between a DD and a mini geared is profound!
Kinni420
100 W
Meh...mid-motor go go. bafang bbs02 kit with everything including battery. $888 from Lunacycle. Ill never ride a hub motor again.
wturber
1 MW
Kinni420 said:
There are pros and cons to mid-drives and many threads for the OP to read if he's curious. In the OP's case, the "efficiency" advantages would be relatively unimportant since he's on flat ground. For a commuter, I'd almost always lean toward a DD hub for reliability and low cost. But the I'm pretty sure that the OP could be quite happy with a mid-drive system - especially one that isn't particularly high powered since that mitigates to some degree one of the negatives which is generally higher levels of needed maintenance.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
motomech said:
Really briefly (replying from work), the ebay motor you linked says it is compatible with v-brakes, which I assume means I am good to go if I do purchase that Trek. Just FYI! Thanks for all the feedback.
reluctantsuburban
10 mW
Kinni420 said:
I think given my relatively flat commute and budget, I'm better off with a hub drive. Less wear on components, too. Although, if your experience is different. I'd love to hear why you prefer the mid drive!
MadRhino
100 GW
Difficult to upgrade and tune the rear suspension of an old Trek fuel to build with a DD hub. The small air shock won’t do, and it has no room for a significant RC shock. Not a bad bike, but more suitable for a small geared hub or a BB drive. To build with a DD hub on a Trek FS frame, you’d better be looking at the Session series. In 2003 yr, the Trek frame I would choose is the diesel.
The weight of DD hubs, and the power that they are capable of, require a suspension design that has room for a big shock and a linkage with very good lateral stiffness. Not saying you can’t build a commuter on a Fuel, at the speed that you plan especially, but it won’t be upgradable. So if you ever plan to upgrade power and/or speed, you will need a better frame to make it a good ride.
The price is fair. That is what a 2003 Fuel is worth in average condition.
The weight of DD hubs, and the power that they are capable of, require a suspension design that has room for a big shock and a linkage with very good lateral stiffness. Not saying you can’t build a commuter on a Fuel, at the speed that you plan especially, but it won’t be upgradable. So if you ever plan to upgrade power and/or speed, you will need a better frame to make it a good ride.
The price is fair. That is what a 2003 Fuel is worth in average condition.
markz
100 TW
Kinni420 said:
Why is that Kinni420?
Do you have lots of hills in your area?
markz
100 TW
MadRhino said:
Yes but haggling is always fun. Start well below but dont insult the seller.
MadRhino
100 GW
markz said:
Haggling material:
BLUE BOOK
Excellent $191 - $197
Very Good $182 - $188
Good $166 - $171
Fair $120 - $123
MSRP New $1,200
markz
100 TW
MadRhino said:
I would start off at $100 from their $180 asking.
You never know how desperate the seller is in getting rid of it and gaining some spending money.
Like for example, rolling up to sellers house and they live in a rich neighborhood is a great clue of your starting price.
