Hill Climbing Motors

telly

100 µW
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
7
My e-bike enlightened brethren,

I currently ride up a 5% hill at around 8mph with leg power alone. If I were to get any geared, brushless hub motor at 48V, 35A would I be able to tackle that bad boy at 21mph? What's the theoretical top speed I could achieve on the hill at that voltage and ampage?

Many thanks for your replies guys (and gals)!
 
1 Horsepower = 750 watts
1 Horsepower = 550 ft-lb/ sec
21 mph = (21 x 1760 x 3) ft/hour = 110880 / 3600 = 30.8 ft/sec
5% of 30.8 = 1.54 ft/sec
So if W = weight of rider+bike,
Horsepower required ignoring horizontal work against rolling resistance, wind etc is:
1.54W / 550
= 2.1W watts
Say bike+rider = 250 lbs,
That's 525 watts.
Your motor gives (48 x 35) = 1680 watts so assuming 100% efficiency you
should be able to do it!

Someone please check my maths! :D
 
We're pretty much in agreement, Paul.

For 110 kg (240 lbs) I get:

726 Watts required in total, of which 509 Watts is the amount needed to climb the grade and 177 Watts to overcome wind resistance, the rest is rolling resistance.
 
With 1680 Watts of input to the motor @ 70% motor efficiency, you should be able to go up at 28 mph, without pedalling. With the same pedal input as before, 31 mph.
 
For the power calculation you can check the bike physics here:

http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm

Using the tool I'm getting that you need 820 watts for a "Roadster" type bike.
 
Thank you all for the replies. Very useful.

Are the calculations above based on maximum motor output, i.e. 48*35 = 1680W.

Does this mean the batteries will be running at full pelt for the the time it takes to clear the hill? The 5% hill goes on for 1.5 miles then turns into a 7% one for around 400m.

Is this OK for the batteries, or does it depend more on what chemistry I go for?
 
If the motor output is 1680 Watts you could go up at about 35 mph. The batteries would have to provide more than that to cover the losses in the motor, of course.
 
Your question WAS:
telly said:
I currently ride up a 5% hill at around 8mph with leg power alone. If I were to get any geared, brushless hub motor at 48V, 35A would I be able to tackle that bad boy at 21mph? What's the theoretical top speed I could achieve on the hill at that voltage and ampage?
Now your asking:
telly said:
Is this OK for the batteries, or does it depend more on what chemistry I go for?
If you use my figures, you can add the steeper 7% for 400 yards bit onto it and do the calculation yourself :D
You don't say what size battery you have. Our various calculations suggest that you would be using about half the theoretical amp-hours. You're going at 20mph ish and the hill is one and a half miles. So it should take you about five minutes to get up the hill. 5 minutes at 800 watts is about 66 watts-hours. I guess you'll get up the hill as long as your battery has a greater capacity than that. :D
 
Sorry if I wasnt clearer guys - I guess I'm a little confused. I think I've got it though.

Basically what you're saying is that 5 mins on the 5% hill will not put strain on the batteries even if I am pulling 35A for this time. Assume I am using LifePO batteries at 48V, 15Ah. So in this scenario I would need a battery that can handle 3C discharge for short periods of time. Correct?

I also assume running a 500W motor at that wattage for 5 mins wouldnt be troublesome for it?

I dont yet have a motor or batteries, so any recommendations based on the above would be very welcome.

Forget the 7% hill. I'll find another way round.
 
telly said:
I also assume running a 500W motor at that wattage for 5 mins wouldnt be troublesome for it?
That could be an issue. :(

750W - 1000W motor would be less dicey.
 
Don't ever ask me to calculate anything. But my real world commute has a hill very much similar to yours but a bit shorter. I go about one mile on the steep part, followed by about a half mile slightly less steep. I run a WE brushed hub, at 36 volts with a lifpo4 20 ah battery. It will do 25 mph or more on the flat and about 12 mph up the hill. As I start the hill, which does not get gradually steeper, I can go close to 20 mph for a few hundred feet but then for whatever reason at that point I slow down to about 15 mph for most of the hill. In the last 1/4 mile of the steep part, which may be steepest, I will slow down to around 8 to 10 mph. By then I may not be adding many watts by peadaling though I try. On the less steep part, I will be able to go about 15mph again. When I was using lead, it was much slower, especially at the top of the steep part. 48 volts lead did help, but it still was slow due to voltage sag.
48 volt lithium will get you up the hill very nice, and not so tired at the top of it. If you get a 20ah sise the cells will be able to handle more drain since the strain is spread out among more cells. Big hills can trip the bms of small lithium packs, and the extra range is worth it's weight in gold. If you are on a tight budget, Brushed is pretty fast, and climbs hills better than brushless motors in the same price range. The really fast brushless motors are expensive but well worh it if you have the cash.
I don't see you climbing that hill at 48 volts much faster than 15-20 mph. If you do that at 30mph I'll want to copy your bike for sure!

My brushed motor gets real hot by the time I top the hill, on a 90 degree farenheight day, but nothing is frying yet. It's hot but you can still touch it. brushed seems to be ok at 48 volts from what others say. You mention getting a geared motor, from what I've read they work great at hills and slow speed, but may wear out fast at high speeds. I have no Idea how fast the geared motors are. For me, the brushed hub pulls that hill plenty good enough since I'm not getting off to walk. The majority of my ride is flatter and at 20-25 mph, or faster on the downhill ride to work. So though I do have bitch of a hill to climb, most of my ride is at above 20 mph. The brushed hub is a pretty good compromise between go fast, and pull hills good. If they wear out in 2 or 3 years, they are cheap enough to replace. But if I have money then, I'll be shopping for something that goes 35mph.
 
Nice one dogman.

If I'm pushing a brushed as hard as a steel geared brushless which one would go first? The brushes or the steel gears?

The thing about my commute is that its hilly all the way. The hill I mentioned is just the longest, not even the steepest. I'm fortunate enough to be able to hit a canal towpath for a small portion of my journey and anyone who cycles along canals know that when they built them they decided to put mountains at various places in-between, just to keep you on your toes and make your journey all that more enjoyable.

I have to contend with short sharp stupid grade hills. Probably 15% slopes for 10 metres or so. So I need a motor that can handle those. I'm not allergic to pedalling, but the return journey after work is essentially 14 miles of hills, which sometimes I'm just not in the mood for.

If I could get away with a 15Ah pack, that would be ideal. The 20Ah adds too much weight and capacity that I probably wont use. I would use the motor for maybe 3-4 miles on the way in and very probably all 14 of the way back, so would need a pack that could do 20+ miles. But not at top speed. Average speed would be around 18-20mph. I have the possibility to charge at work, so if need be I could re-energise there.
 
One thing you should keep in mind especially with ping type packs, if you keep your discharge to within 80% and the discharge rate at 1C you will see a massive life span, as opposed to a probably somewhat short lifespan if you are sitting at 2C and greater discharging to 100%. So it seems like wasted weight but its not that much different to get a 20AH pack and just treat it nicely.
 
telly said:
Nice one dogman.

If I'm pushing a brushed as hard as a steel geared brushless which one would go first? The brushes or the steel gears?

For a given power level, the geared will have less thermal mass and fry first. However, the geared will probably not be pushed as hard for the same hill, so it's not really a fair comparison.

Geared is probably the way to go if you live in a hilly area. Twin geared motors would be ridiculous, but no worrys about hills; you could pull a car with that kind of setup. 8)
 
I'd go for gears too if I were you, now that I know what your ride is like. In my case I have 700 feet of vertical drop to get to work, but about 500 feet of it is in the stretch I described. 90% of my ride is either very slight uphill, or very slight downhill and i fly on all of that. The Heinsman motors are the best of the geared I've heard, and there are some real fans of the others. I found the brushed hub so suitable to my ride where I do go a long way and need speed, but still need at least some grunt to get up the hill without going to big voltage. A lot of folks read the websites that say brushed is 30% less efficient but they gloss over the part where they go 20% faster. For about $400 less money. But if most of your ride is hilly, the gears will get better efficiency than a lugged down gearless hub. I think the reason my hub slows on the top of the climb is because its busy making heat.
 
So would this do what I want?

http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/brushless-geared-motor-p-163.html
 
Judging by the price, it better be. Ask them what brand it is. You could get almost three brushed hubs for that price, but we allready beat that horse dead, and I really have no Idea what a good price for a geared wheel is. Very cool that it comes disk ready so it looks quality to me.
 
Telly,

That is a great motor. I live in a very hilly area. Climbs great and with a little tweaking it can be made even better. The controller that they sell with the kit is for 36V only...trust me :shock: Even at 36V's it climbs great though.

These motors make a little more noise than the clites.... but not much more and when moving all I can hear is the road and the wind. They build the wheels in house and it's a very nice wheel build.

kyakdiver
 
Hi telly,

I agree with Paul and Miles' sums, and I can add a practical viewpoint. I am 69 kg and there is a long 5% hill near my house.

If you can provide a bit of useful pedal power yourself, then you should be looking at about 600 W power input to the motor. But you can get that with a motor that is nominally rated at 250 to 300 W.

At 36 V you would need a current draw of about 18 A peak. At 48 V, 14 A. That's allowing a bit for voltage sag in the battery under load.

Nick
 
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