How do the experts handle front wheel lock up?

[John in CR]

Ok guys I know a shitload of you know how to ride on 2 wheels a million times better than I, so it's time to prove it. Either me or my bikes leaving me on 2 feet have encountered the ground 5 times. Pics to come of the latest gift of skin and meat to the ebike gods to follow, but in the meantime how the f-u-c-k do I avoid impact with the asphalt when the front wheel loses traction?

 

[mwkeefer]

We jump and push off with our hands do a 360 in air and land on our feet... NOT, we crash and do the best possible to avoid breaking anything _

 

[Farfle]

Hope you don't slide into anything, and thank (or curse) your safety gear.

Not a ton you can do. esp in a turn with meh tires. (Assuming your not bashing the front brake)

 

[hydro-one]

ouch, what sort of situation are we talkin here, different stypes of loss need dif corrective action. you dont want to high side on pavent. how is your rear brake working, u can lock that up to bring the bike back up, , ,are we talking during a turn? cuase i use newtons laws when turning. object in motion tends to remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, eg if you dont have traction dont try and turn or brake. . . . ive got a bit of experiance. also looks like elbo pads and ,,,, hm shoes might be in order.......

 

[John in CR]

That's just a % but you get the idea. In this latest episode I move to the right around a 30cmish dianeter pothole only to encounter invisible poor braking surface of loose small gravel as I set up for a turn. I fact, this same or very similiar condition has lead to all 5 of the times either myself or my bike have struck the ground.

My question is if your front wheel loses traction during braking of any kind, how the hell do you experts or non-experts, or anyone else recover? I am 0 for 5 and would like to save at least a little skin.

John

results:

 

[John in CR]

Please don't bother with the shoes, helmet, etc input. I understand and accept the effects of risk compensation. ie yes my risk in the event of an an accident increase probably right along with my risks "of an accident". However, I simply not going to let retards behind the wheel hit me. My big risk is not f'ing up myself. eg I didn't see this invisibile loose gravel just before a turn, so how the frock do I miss the loose gravel and whatever poor traction conditions ahead?

 

[John in CR]

We jump and push off with our hands do a 360 in air and land on our feet... NOT, we crash and do the best possible to avoid breaking anything _

Thanks Mike, you're the dude when it comes to an explanation of how to tune a controller and motor, but you obviously can't handle the beached whale to bike interface.

 

[John in CR]

We jump and push off with our hands do a 360 in air and land on our feet... NOT, we crash and do the best possible to avoid breaking anything _

Ok, breathe deeply and no significant pain, so nothing is broke, right?

 

[biohazardman]

Ouch!!
Not an expert by any means but I quickly let go of the front brake and try to go mostly straight for long enough to recover and get through or past the slick stuff while using the back brake to slow me as little as possible. It happens pretty fast sometimes and I crashed last year in the snow cuz it happened to fast for me. I also wear gloves and shoes even when it's hot outside. Really hate to crash and I am old so the voices are always saying be careful. I expect loose gravel, wet leaves and other slick stuff to be around any corner I might take so ride with that in mind until I have been down the road for the day. Slows me down a little, at times, but then again I have only dumped it once in several years. Error on the side of safety and keep the blood and carnage down a bit. Road rash is nasty for infections so scrub it off good you know how it is.

 

[John in CR]

ouch, what sort of situation are we talkin here, different stypes of loss need dif corrective action. you dont want to high side on pavent. how is your rear brake working, u can lock that up to bring the bike back up, , ,are we talking during a turn? cuase i use newtons laws when turning. object in motion tends to remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force, eg if you dont have traction dont try and turn or brake. . . . ive got a bit of experiance. also looks like elbo pads and ,,,, hm shoes might be in order.......

Hydro and Farfle, You dudes are way ahead. I'm talking about 5 different situations in the past 2.5 years where my effing front wheel loses traction for whatever reason. How the frock do I recover? Yes, I understand that surface conditions rule, but today's skin shining incident is foremost to me, but my question is once that f'ing single front wheel slips, is there anything much greater than a 0% chance of recovery? If so, please tell me how or tell me how to practice, because a fat frock like me bouncing and sliding is about the best you'll get all at my personal expense. OTOH, tell me how to improve and you may get countless hours of view pleasure of me trying.

 

[Ykick]

Bad stuff John, sorry to see this. Get well soon.

Front tires wash out with even small amount of lean while braking - either from stones, pebbles, gravel, oil, etc.

Experience, experience, experience and a bit of luck is the only 99% effective way to deal with this law of physics. When leaning and/or using front brake you must qualify the road surface. Not always exact or possible to do but that's really all we have at our disposal.

Years ago a local Bus sloshed fuel out it's filler neck in an intersection. I was already in the middle of my lean by the time my nose smelled it but by that point there was absolutely nothing that would recover the motorcycle in that situation. Once it's going, it's going....

Probably why most of us who've been riding for a long time and have some MSF training put up with and accept all that "protective" clothing you don't wanna talk about. I've had several touchdowns on motorcycles and heavy leather merely scuffs instead of the flesh carnage you're now suffering.

It's part of the deal we accept when we ride two wheels. You will go down. You can get wise and learn how to minimize it but if you ride long enough, sooner or later you will go down.

For a period of my motorcycle life I went to sidecars because they always let you know how much traction you got and were easier to deal with a flat at speed. But, I got tired of driving a car with little engine....

 

[motomech]

The specific answer is, when the frt. whl. starts to skid, you freeze up and do nothing, hoping that it will find traction again. If it doesn't, well, you are already down. The only time in 40 years of riding I have succesfully drifted the frt. tire is on the race track, and that's on banked corners!
With motorcycles, I always ran the best frt. tire possible. If I was on a $500 motorcycle, I ran a $100 to $200 frt. tire. Frt. wheel traction is everything. With gravel, you have to see it and slow down, there is nothing else for it!
I don't what to say here, or how to say it nicely, but:
You build over-powered bikes with little thought to handling or traction.
You ride in Costa Rica where the roads are shite, there is no signage, almost no respect for rules of the road and the drivers are complete idiots.
And you refuse to ride with protective gear...
What did you think was/is going to happen?
And as bad as the drivers are down there, your claim that they will run you down from behind is caca. That much they won't do.
I have ridden motorcycles from 125cc to 1300cc's for over 100,000 miles in Central America and have only been down twice. Once when a dog came out of a field and took out my frt. whl. and once when I broke my own rule and was riding at nite in the rain.
I have stayed in one piece by taking it easy and I always wear boots, gloves, full helmet and if I can stand the heat, a mesh riding jacket.

 

[lbz5mc12]

I fractured my elbow today because of an evil curb that jumped out in front of me but my palms are fine because of my gloves. Were you going slow when you were turning or hauling butt? It was such a nice day for a ride today and I missed out on half of my ride. The San Bernardino fire department kicks ass in my book. They held onto my bike for me until my mom's boyfriend could go pick it up. I crashed at Cal State San Bernardino. I cut through it sometimes because it's nice and scenic. The campus police said they couldn't hold onto my bike because it wasn't a car so I said "how about classifying it as an electric vehicle", big ol' fat nope. It was funny one of the fire fighters asked what happened and I said "I ate shit" but he thought I told him to eat shit lol. Of course I cleared that up really fast hahaha.

 

[AussieJester]

I think the short answer John is the experts don't recover. As Motomech
points out front wheel traction on a motorcycle is everything. The best MotoGP
riders in the world lose front ends all the time. The best you can do is be prepared for the event.

Hope you heal up quick buddy, that hand looks bad, horrible when you injure
your hands really makes most tasks difficult.

I know you dont want 'wear a helmet etc.." but gloves at least
are well worth it, 9/10 your hands will be the first or next to first
part of the ol bod that will hit the tarmac...says me who doesnt yet have a pair

KiM

 

[Lebowski]

What you need is a good ABS.. or a Honda type system where either brake handle operates on both wheels

Or a system that shoots out and erects a bouncy castle in a fraction of a second

 

[bzhwindtalker]

I take your bikes are not really suited for this but... With enougth torque/power you don't really need the front wheel. Braking when you lost the front wheel will only get you to the ground faster. If you accelerate on the other hand you can get back on track but you need to be able to turn in the wheelie. Anything you do to lessen the forces on the front wheel will help.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Once the front wheel loses traction, you're just a passenger until either the tire grabs the road again, or you land on it. Ain't nothing you can do except prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Trying to recover puts you and the bike out of position, so you either crash anyway when the tire grabs, or are in bad form when you hit the road, and get hurt worse. So you have 2 choices that will do any good, hold your position and ride it out, hoping the tire catches, or get into a tuck and prepare to hit the ground. Each situation is unique so the decision has to be made in that fraction of a second before gravity catches up with you.

 

[full-throttle]

Assuming you are referring to loosing front wheel in corners, try shifting the weight forward a little more. Often a shorter stem can help with steering. I'm sure you already know not to brake in the corners, but if you must try not to use the front brake. Lose the rear and you will likely recover, lose the front and it's over. And lastly - don't let go of the bars!

 

[Sunder]

From my experience on motorcycles, if your front wheel loses traction, there's only two things you can do, and the decision is rarely deliberate.

1. Applying the rear brake tends to right the bike (get it more upright) and may slow you down enough to return traction to the front wheel before you crash.

2. If something is coming up you just can't afford to hit, you lay down the bike and slide on your rear end. Kevlar jeans means I can still work as a member of Chippendale's if I really wanted to. (No! Kidding! Kidding!)

Done both in my time as a motorcyclist. Don't know if the same applies on a lighter, differently balanced electric bike.

 

[dogman dan]

Don't do that just about sums it up. It really is all about don't lock that front wheel. THANKS for the pics. Like Luke, I love to see the gore. 8)

Despite the fact that front braking works best, I try to set up brakes so that at least, the front brake never locks up first. Secondly, use your brakes like there will always be gravel. In my desert climate, there always is some sand at least. In a panic situation, I grab only rear brake, and if it locks I steer that skid to thread the needle. Can't steer a front wheel skid one bit, but I can zig zag all over with a locked rear tire. Given a few more milliseconds of time, I'll gently grab front brake. Once you know you don't have the stopping distance, lengthening the stopping distance by not using the front brake becomes meaningless. Preserving control is your last chance.

Once you do lock the front wheel, you likely are hosed. Getting back off the front brake might get you traction and steering again, but chances are about 99% that you don't have that kind of time left before impact, laydown, or over the top. If you have a bit of time and distance, then get on both brakes for sure, but as the distance gets short, get off the front brake and start steering the skid.

For others reading, I also ride nearly naked in the hot months. T shirt, shorts, tennis shoes, helmet that won't do much, no gloves. It's just so hot to wear much more. But ONE TIME, laying down a motorcycle while wearing flip flops was the very last sandal ride for me. In a good laydown though, tennis shoes won't do much more than the decorative biking helmet. No freaking way I can stand it to wear boots in summer, so at least sneakers will grind a bit longer before I grind meat. I'll already be losing palms, knees and elbows, and perhaps chin, teeth, etc.

 

[captain387]

I have a corner I travel around on my regular bicycle that is part of a parking lot. This corner is 90 degrees and on the outer half of the corner has about 2 mm of sand with pavement underneath.
I hit the sand on purpose just to slide out for a bit for practice. Going into the corner in a half crouched position I put my outside pedal down and as I begin to turn I take my inside foot off the pedal and forward and away from the bike pretty close to the ground. I have gotten pretty good at having both tires sliding a little bit and when I feel that the front tire is going to wash out completely I steer to the outside of the corner.
Putting the inside foot down is the last mode to save myself (Which doesn't work if you are going too fast)

I used to own a Yamaha R6 everyone one I rode with said "It's not IF you are going to fall it's when" Either by your own doing or by all of the distracted drivers.

Good luck with the recovery

 

[henni001]

Sorry for the scrape John - glad it was just that! One tip I read here - and not what you're asking for I know - is to not look at the pot hole (or tree, on-coming rider, etc) directly - you already see that - instead focus on wider view and MAYBE you see and avoid the other dangers - cars and car doors, gravel, ice (for some of us )...Mack

 

[MadRhino]

I am very sorry for your hands. Hand injuries are the ones I hate the most, hence the only protection I wear most of the time is a good pair of riding gloves.

Not much one can do to recover from a front wash, but keeping cool and refrain natural reflexes. Riding all winter on snow and ice makes a rider accept better a front wheel slide, yet it is not natural at all to keep from over-reacting in that situation. You are 0 in 5, very few would claim a better score for it is after 20 that you may find the nerve to recover one. After hundreds of times, you get to be more confident and accept that if the rear start to lose traction too, either from braking or acceleration, it makes it much easier to control the slide and recover.

 

[Harold in CR]

Damn. Sorry to see this thread.

Now you know why I am slow at finishing my ride. I don't need broken body at my age.

I have been studying about a 2 wheel leaning front end, but, more like the Can-Am bikes. I have a complete brochure with all the measurements. Theirs doesn't lean, though. 2 wheels have to corner better than a single one ????

Funny thing, right in front of my house, there is a mud hole, from the stupid neighbors uphill and their big trucks. Anyways, 3 days ago, one of their buddies, tried to get cute and dumped their moto right at the edge of the mudhole. They were all laughing about it. Yeah, it's all funny to idiots.

If you are not aware, most any pharmacia or super mercados or pulperias have an antiseptic anti-bacterial soap you can get to help clean out that road grit. Liquid or bar soap will both work.

 

[John in CR]

Ok, alcohol pain killer wore off. A fractured rib or two and some lost skin, no big deal. What is a big deal is this:


In that bird's next of tinned copper are 6 phase wires, 12 wires for halls and thermistor. Despite being a cup half full kind of guy always looking for the bright side is that I learn the lesson the hard way for my customers....PROTECT YOUR AXLE ON THE WIRE SIDE AT ALL COSTS.

Here's the scene of the crime. In the photo the loose rocks next to the pothole seem apparent, but in real life, not at all. You have to get up there and slide your foot on the pavement to notice the loose very small rocks. I guees if you're going to crash, right in front of the ER entrance of the nearest clinic is the place to crash. The axle arrow points direct at the ER entrance on the right.