How Many Series Cells In Following Configurations ... Advantage Of The More The Better ?

[john61ct]

OMG. What utter crap.
...
STOP ENTERTAINING THESE MORONS AND THEIR RIDICULOUS CONCEPTS AND INANE ARGUMENTS.

STOP PERPETUATING LOW QUALITY POSTS.

Well, I have to disagree. Everyone has to start somewhere, and there may well be noobs with even less understanding of the basics.

So even if the way things work never sink in with this one, the attempts may well prove useful to the community as a whole in future.

 

[john61ct]

I drew this to help explain why we call a battery pack by series and parallel

Very nice.

Have you got one showing all the 4P7S strip connections finished? That may help Mark

 

[eMark]

Thread Title ... How Many Series Cells In Following Configurations

Series Cells, Series Cells, Series Cells ... it's not always easy deciding the total number of series cells in a battery pack; especially a triangular configuration. We discuss the advantage of more parallel cells in a pack, but how often do we discuss the number of "series cells" in a DIY trianglular pack? It's easy to determine the number of parallel cells in a triangular configuration, BUT how about the number of series cells in a triangular pack ???

What everyone seems to be overlooking is the difference between one series string (like the 7S / 4P diagram below) compared to the total number of series cells in that 7S / 4P pack ?

Are not 4 strings of 7S series cells (28 ) in this 7S / 4P better than say only 2 outer or 2 middle series strings (only 14 series cells versus 28 series cells). OK hold on ... what i'm building up to is the advantage of having the most number of series cells POSSIBLE in a DIY triangular pack build (middle two configurations: 20S / 6P and 10S /10P shown below).

Should be obvious from thread title that the question is NOT how many cells there are in a series string, but rather the total number of series cells POSSIBLE in each of the 4 battery configuratons (whether rectangular or triangular) shown below.

It's the middle two triangular packs that aren't as easy to determine the total number of series cells POSSIBLE. Who wants to venture a guess on the most series cells POSSIBLE in each of the 4 battery packs? The top and bottom shouldn't be all that difficult, but the challenge is the middle two triangular packs that aren't as easy to determine the most series cells POSSIBLE.

The first battery shown at the top is 4S / 15P
The second one down is 20S / 6P
Third (on the computer screen) is 10S / 10P.
The bottom one is 4S / 15P

When first posting it's formatted correctly as a quote, but if i have to make even 1 edit it doesn't repost as quote.
The same happens with the four quotes by spinningmagnets above each photo.

The 3 photos and 1 computer diagram are from spinningmagnets thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006

The first battery shown at the top is 4S / 15P

..... What is the most number of series cells POSSIBLE in this battery configuration ?

The second one down is 20S / 6P

..... What is the most number of series cells POSSIBLE in this battery configuration ?

Third (on the computer screen) is 10S / 10P.

..... What is the most number of series cells POSSIBLE in this battery configuration ?

The bottom one is 4S / 15P

..... What is the most number of series cells POSSIBLE in this battery configuration ?

How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 20S / 6P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 10S / 10P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?

The 3 photos and 1 computer diagram are from spinningmagnets thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006

 

[spinningmagnets]

The maximum number of series cells is using a 1P configuration. If 28 cells will fit, the maximum number of series cells is 28S / 1P = 28 cells

As I stated in my first post of this thread, you must first determine how many cells will fit into the space, and then we can suggest various combinations.

 

[john61ct]

For some reason, continued here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1671991#p1671991

and here https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1671961#p1671961

 

[ZeroEm]

I think we are having a communication problem. I understand he is wanting to discuss an idea and is using "series cells" to describe it. Some or most of us use the word "series" in a specific way to describe one thing.

 

[nicobie]

It's been explained about as good as it can be explained.

Enough is enough...

 

[spinningmagnets]

It sounds like he's asking is it better to have more series and less paralleled cells, or the other way around?

14S x 2P = 28 cells
7S X 4P = 28 cells

If that's the question, I think a lot depends on the cells you are using, plus how many amps you are drawing peak and continuous...

The guy either doesn't understand series and parallel, or he's trolling.

 

[john61ct]

I doubt he is trolling, just has never grokked this basic concept for some reason.

It sounds like he's asking is it better to have more series and less paralleled cells, or the other way around?

14S x 2P = 28 cells
7S X 4P = 28 cells

Yes, it appears that he thinks there is some inherent "advantage" in the cell count numbers themselves, like **the ratio** of the layout between the S count vs the P factor.

To OP: there is not, the numbers in themselves are not significant.

The S count is simply dictated by the voltage you need, for a given motor/controller/ desired top speed,

and the P factor then determined by how many cells total you can carry.

If your cells are smaller, say 2Ah each, then you need more in parallel than if each was 5Ah,

in order to get to a certain **total pack level Ah capacity**

which is what gets you to a certain range and/or peak current.

 

[ZeroEm]

I think highly of everyone that tried to help. I could feel his frustration and weighed on my mind several nights ago. But i'm no expert. Just wanted to help.

 

[eMark]

Sense your frustration and that of others that seemingly don''t like the title of my "series" thread, the term "series cells" or "the more the better". If you're frustrated imagine how frustrated i am. In the following diagram there are 28 "series cells" and 28 "parallel cells".

What has never really been discussed before is that the 28 cells in the above diagram function as both "series cells" and "parallel cells" at the same time. All 28 cells serve as a connection path for both the seven 4P groups and the four 7S strings.

Isn't that the main reason why good quality cells will tend to stay balanced during both charging and discharging a pack for many c/d cycles via the unique bonding relationship.

The real reason for how this thread has deteriorated is due in no small measure to john's posts bent on misrepresentation, disinformation and apparently wanting to debate.

john's posts on this thread are a subtle form of baiting. It's best if everyone just ignores any future posts on one of my threads by john61ct. Over a year ago john had agreed (administrative facilliator) NOT to post on my threads as it was not helpful then and not helpful now. If anyone is trolling or baiting on this thread it's john's numerous disruptive posts. Best to do what i do ... Just ignore.

Maybe, now you'll get what i meant by "the more the better" one example being LFP's preference :thumb:

I have asked to have this thread locked for good.

 

[goatman]

How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 20S / 6P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 10S / 10P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?

only thing i could think of
1=3
2=2
3=2
4=3

 

[eMark]

How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 20S / 6P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 10S / 10P battery configuration ____________ ?
How many series cells POSSIBLE in spinningmagnets supplied 4S / 15P battery configuration ____________ ?

only thing i could think of
1=3
2=2
3=2
4=3

Could it be possible that there are as many "series cells" as there are "parallel cells" in each of the 4 configurations?. As john said the shape of the pack shouldn't make a difference. I do occasionally glance at one of his posts if something catches my eye.

But what i was also interested in with the triangular packs is the most number of connection points/paths possible connecting each of the parallel groups together with each other; especially the computer design (#3). You don't need to dwell on it as this thread could be closed any minute.

 

[john61ct]

I am sincerely just trying to help you understand how batteries work Mark.

I would not invest so much time otherwise.

What has never really been discussed before is that the 28 cells in the above diagram function as both "series cells" and "parallel cells" at the same time. All 28 cells serve as a connection path for both the seven 4P groups and the four 7S strings.

Exactly, and that is always true, for every pack.

Which is why there is no such thing as "series cells" and "parallel cells".

The S-count is 7, in order to get voltage between 24V and 29V.

Four in parallel to get increased Ah capacity and peak amps.


> Isn't that the main reason why good quality cells will tend to stay balanced during both charging and discharging a pack for many c/d cycles via the unique bonding relationship.

None of that makes sense, but the answer is no.

 

[goatman]

both 3 and 2 get bottlenecked down to only 2 serial connections
all the current flows through that area, not as big a deal when using copper

reminds when i said that NESE looks wrong and john mentioned you could flip the tabs so the current flows diagonally through the group and Agnesium said, just because it looks wrong doesnt mean it is.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=101548&p=1544473&hilit=nese+looks+wrong#p1544473

the nese is actually a good example to ponder on, 1 series connection

 

[eMark]

Which is why there is no such thing as "series cells" and "parallel cells".

This is another example of john providing disinformation ... just wanting to stir the pot by trolling and baiting.

In this diagram provided by spinningmagnets there are four "parallel cells" cells connected in parallel ...

In the above diagram there's room enuf for 7 groups of 4P cells amounts to 28 cells in parallel (parallel cells).

In this diagram provided by spinningmagnets there are seven "series cells" cells connected in series ...

In the above diagram there's room enuf for 4 strings of 7S cells amounts to 28 cells in series (series cells).

Hopefully, double spacing all lines will help john to finally understand that both series and parallel cells are able

to function/serve delivering/suppling/providing energy as both parallel cells and series cells working together.

john just doesn't get the concept that the cells in the above diagrams are uniquely bonded in a relatonship that helps

to keep all the cells balanced during charging and discharging.

Maybe it's just that john doesn't want to admit that "series cells" (cells in series) and "parallel cells"

(cells in parallel) are legit terms when distinguishing cells in series from cells in parallel. :thumb:

Here's a "Series and Parallel Cells" basic textbook article for beginning students that don't grasp the concept

https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2 ... explaining "Series Cells"

and "Parallel Cells". One really has to wonder if john is trolling and baiting when it comes to not accepting

"series cells" and "parallel cells" as legit terms. Perhaps the reason this thread hasn't yet been closed/locked is

because staff wants to see how long john remains closed-minded or how far he digs himself in a deeper hole.

............................................. _____________________________ .............................................

Next do i really have to waste my time trying to explain to john the "Advantage Of The More The Better ?" ... being the more

cells in series (series cells) as well as cells in parallel (parallel cells) ????? or can't this thread be closed/locked

so john doesn't continue to derail this thread with misinformation/disinformation that serves no useful purpose OR at least to

save john from further embarrassment.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I doubt John will change. Perhaps you can use the "block" function?

I wish I knew a better way to explain how we discuss battery pack terms here.

Are you trying to design a battery pack for a project? Or, are you just discussing general battery pack design theory?

There are long-time builders here with lots of hands-on experience, and yet...even they disagree on which method and configuration is "best".

I say...if two different designs work fine for their intended task, then...neither one is "best".

 

[eMark]

I doubt John will change. Perhaps you can use the "block" function?

I wish I knew a better way to explain how we discuss battery pack terms here.

Are you trying to design a battery pack for a project? Or, are you just discussing general battery pack design theory?

There are long-time builders here with lots of hands-on experience, and yet...even they disagree on which method and configuration is "best".

I say...if two different designs work fine for their intended task, then...neither one is "best".

Think you may agree that the problem with john61ct and others are so busy they don't take the time to read and understand. If you don't know by now what this thread and my intent was/is than it's useless to try to explain it to you again.

What surprises me is that your published articles are well-thought out and well-written. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that your reading comprehension is above par. So, why you don't understand the gist of this thread is simple ... you don't take the time to digest the written content.

YES, i realize from your PM that you've got A LOT on your mind right now. If you don't have the time to even digest the title of this thread then it would be better if you don't even reply if the best one can do is feigned ignorance.

Accusing me of trolling was going way to far ... which is proof to me that your current objectives (PM) are an overload on your brain.

Should i return the favor by falsely accusing you of trolling as you falsely assuced me ? or should we continue with what seems to be feigned ignorance if staff for whatever reason(s) doesn't want to close/lock this thread as i requested yesterday.

So, you too may need to digest this article to accept that the terms "series cells" and "parallel cells" are legimate established terms ... https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

Or is it that if you use these terms you will be reprimanded by john61ct just as he did for your use of "parallel strings" instead of parallel groups? Why does most everyone walk on eggshells not wanting to confront john61ct when he's providing disinformation when "series cells" and "parallel cells" are established terms among those in the know ... https://www.chegg.com/homework-help/definitions/series-and-parallel-cells-2

Maybe, this well-written article will help you figure out the total number of cells that are in series in that 10S /10P triangular configuration ... https://www.nagwa.com/en/explainers/823164845017/

 

[john61ct]

In this diagram provided by spinningmagnets there are four "parallel cells" cells connected in parallel ...

In the above diagram there's room enuf for 7 groups of 4P cells amounts to 28 cells in parallel (parallel cells).

In this diagram provided by spinningmagnets there are seven "series cells" cells connected in series ...

In the above diagram there's room enuf for 4 strings of 7S cells amounts to 28 cells in series (series cells).

You do realize don't you that those are just the two aspects illustrated from the same 4P7S pack?

Room enough? 28 cells in series would make a 100+ volt pack!

28 cells in parallel would be 1S, and make a 3.7V pack!

You can't have both at once.

If these were prismatics, with only a single ring terminal on each post, a 7S4P pack, means there are four strings in parallel, each string at 7S.

Or if 4P7S, a single 7S string of 4P groups.


> as both parallel cells and series cells working together

YES you got it! When welded to more than one connection, none are just series "or" parallel cells, **every** cell is **both**

There are no cells that can be labeled with just one attribute. Therefore it is meaningless to ask how many there are of each!

> uniquely bonded in a relatonship that helps to keep all the cells balanced during charging and discharging

No again this is just gobbledygook


> the "Advantage Of The More The Better ?" ... being the more

as is that

 

[eMark]

Was expecting somone to agree that all 28 cells in this 18650 (or 21700) 7s4p battery congifuration serve as both a parallel cell and series cell at the same time. There are 28 series connections and 28 parallel connections.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkjdy_uT3PqQ9b0d0aln0y70iAN89rL7769w&usqp=CAU

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3v6khMcreQIVIhEX-duUv4RhnbW-2o6Pq0A&usqp=CAU

This bus bar arrangement enables equalized balancing of all the cells during charging, discharging and pack rest. With any high energy performance battery it's best when possible to use .15mm nickel plated copper bus bars to eliminate/minimize any noticeable voltage lag.

 

[john61ct]

you OK?