Hub Motor, Throttle Won't work?

[furcifer]

So, buddy gave me a fat tire bike with a 350W hub motor that wasn't working. So I order a controller and of course almost everything is backwards male where female should be or black where red should be.

But NBD, the display connector, the throttle and the phase sensor all lines up. The phase wires didn't but I got them figured out.



with it connected like this the throttle won't work, I get an error showing on the display. The walk mode works and the motor will spin 11 km/h. If I connect the two green wires together (I don't know what they are called, it's some sort of bypass/reset wire) It will run full speed. (green wires right above the 00 on the display)
But when I disconnect the green wires and hook up the throttle I'm back to the error and the motor will not run.


Does anyone know what this could be? I bought a new throttle and the voltages check out. I tried changing the phase sensor wires to match the phase wires (grn-bl, ylw-grn, bl-ylw, you can make out the harness behind the phase wires in the first pic.) and it just won't work. I don't have any of the brake sensors connected but I have tried them (swapped the pins in one) and nothing changes.

None of this makes sense to me. I have power, the motor runs and input from the throttle tests good 0.8-4.6V between sensor wire and ground. I don't have the 3 speed, horn or light hooked up because this controller doesn't seem to support it.

The only thing slightly out of place is the throttle connection. The throttle connector is in the first pic covering the controller. It's white on the controller side and black on the throttle side. I don't think this is a problem, I have black to black and red to red, with the controller signal wire being grey and the throttle signal being green. When the throttle is pressed it's a positive (+) voltage increase in the signal wire. Based on wiring diagram provided (which is sketchy at best) and my knowledge of electrical this is functioning properly. But it's not functioning properly. The only way to get the motor to spin is either using "walk mode" or connecting the green wires on the controller.
Any ideas would be much appreciated. This bike is a week away from being sacrificed in a Labor Day ritual and ghost ridden into the Detroit River.

 

[TommyCat]

As per the display manual, the indicator you describe and shown in picture is an indication that the brake signal is actuated. You mention the switches are not connected… did you leave the wires disconnected from each other? I.E. Brake signal not connected to ground with a low brake circuit is NOT actuated.

For reference…

https://www.planetenumerique.com/IMG/pdf/s866_lcd-2019jun6v7.pdf



Regards,
T.C.

 

[E-HP]

with it connected like this the throttle won't work, I get an error showing on the display. The walk mode works and the motor will spin 11 km/h. If I connect the two green wires together (I don't know what they are called, it's some sort of bypass/reset wire) It will run full speed. (green wires right above the 00 on the display)
But when I disconnect the green wires and hook up the throttle I'm back to the error and the motor will not
Any ideas would be much appreciated. This bike is a week away from being sacrificed in a Labor Day ritual and ghost ridden into the Detroit River.

Green wires on a brainpower controller are usually for self learning. If you connect them, and the motor spins in the correct direction, then you should disconnect them, then power off the controller. The phase and hall combination should be correct once you turn it back on. (If it spins backwards, the you disconnect and reconnect the greens until it spins correctly).
If not, you might need to manually set the correct combination using the flow diagram in this article (TommyCat’s).

Testing BLDC motor's Phase Wiring - Hall Sensors and Wiring. - Electricbike.com Ebike Forum

Testing electrical components of a typical hub motor with a digital multi meter. First take a few minutes and look over the wiring going into the motor for cuts, scrapes, missing insulation and other wiring issues or poor connections that should be resolved first. Smell for...

electricbike.com

 

[furcifer]

As per the display manual, the indicator you describe and shown in picture is an indication that the brake signal is actuated. You mention the switches are not connected… did you leave the wires disconnected from each other? I.E. Brake signal not connected to ground with a low brake circuit is NOT actuated.

For reference…

https://www.planetenumerique.com/IMG/pdf/s866_lcd-2019jun6v7.pdf



Regards,
T.C.

Tried both. The black and white 2 pin are brakes. One I was able to swap pins but the other has hot glue. With one working brake it still didn't work. I could try both but I don't see how that changes the controller? Shouldn't it work without brakes? My BBSHD does that's for sure.

 

[TommyCat]

Shouldn't it work without brakes? My BBSHD does that's for sure.

Yes, that is exactly the goal that we are working toward. That being that the brakes electrical switches or wiring are not completing the circuit between either of your BLACK and WHITE wires of the paralleled brake wiring.
With the BBSHD you just have to disconnect both brake connectors from the harness to eliminate the possibility of a defective stuck closed switch.

I could try both but I don't see how that changes the controller?

Since the display indicator shows that you're applying the brakes, hence keeping the controller from energizing the motor.
It would seem reasonable to find out why...

One I was able to swap pins but the other has hot glue.

As the brake switch has no polarity sensitive connection, this seems an odd statement to me. The brake switch is just a connection between two wires. Closed when the brake is actuated, and open when the brake is not used.

With one working brake it still didn't work.

Does this mean that with one brake connected, the indicator went away but the problem still persists?
Would you please expand on this point...


To revue...

During normal operation a "low brake" circuit such as the one your controller uses. Disables motor function when the brake is applied.
When the brake is applied, and internal switch changes from "open" to "closed" position. Completing the circuit that tells the controller to stop providing power to the motor, as well as displaying the "brake actuated" symbol on the LCD.

If you have electrical testing capabilities, I recommend the following.

With the battery disconnected and testing for resistance. Disconnect one of the brake cables, your 2 pin, WHITE and BLACK wires.
Probing between the two, see if they are shorted, switched, or tied together.
An infinite reading is what you want, meaning they are not connected. A resistance reading is problematic, please post value if this is observed.

 

[furcifer]

Brakes are 2 pin. Black and white.

Left is black right is white.

From the brake Left is white black is right.

So I changed them.

It did nothing.

 

[furcifer]

brakes don't make an ebike go.

 

[docw009]

If you're going to ride it into the river anyway, pedal it w.o power and save the electrical components. except you would need a nonpowered fat bike hub,

Brakes inputs active on hubmotor controllers do inhibit the motor. They usually do it for walk mode too, but maybe not on a brainpower controller.

Have you checked the throttle connector for voltage, You will get 4,5V on one pair and then 0V going to the remaining pin when you have the voltmeter connected properly, The 4.5V pair is the power and ground. Maybe the throttle is connected backwards.

 

[TommyCat]

brakes don't make an ebike go.

But if actuated, they will keep an e-bike from going. A good trouble shooting first step is to disconnect the brake electric cable connections as mentioned previously for no motor response.

When in “Walk assist” does the icon for this show in the display?

At this time during walk assist, is the “Electric brake active” icon also shown in the display?

Keep those helpful pictures coming.

Lastly, did the controller provider assure you that your existing display would be compatible with it?

 

[furcifer]

But if actuated, they will keep an e-bike from going. A good trouble shooting first step is to disconnect the brake electric cable connections as mentioned previously for no motor response.

When in “Walk assist” does the icon for this show in the display?

At this time during walk assist, is the “Electric brake active” icon also shown in the display?

Keep those helpful pictures coming.

Lastly, did the controller provider assure you that your existing display would be compatible with it?

Yes that's why I disconnected the brakes to take them out of the equation. I tested one because I read there are normally open and normally closed brake kills.

Yes. Holding the (-) button engages walk mode, walking man icon appears, speed maintained at 11km/h until button is let go.

No. The warning icon only appears when the throttle is pressed. And it's not a triangle like I posted before it's a circle so like (0) with an exclamation in the center of the circle. I checked voltages again and they're 0.8V-4.8V which is well within range.

Yes, they were purchased together and seller confirms compatibility (s866 display). I'm not sure about the throttle but it's a generic 3 pin.

It could be the settings but some of them don't make sense to me. P07 is "Speed gauge magnetic steel number range 0-100" I don't recall having to set that on my other hub motor. P10 is "The drive mode is setting" Power Drive is 0 and "how much power is output is determined by the power file bit, and the switch is invalid 1 is electric and 2 is both power and electric. P13 is "Power magnetic steel disk type setting. 5,8,12

I don't know what the settings are supposed to be and there are no identifying marks on the hub. Just a serial number of sorts:



The problem is if the settings are wrong why does walk mode work fine and why does it run full speed when the green wires are connected? There's no PAS sensor on the bike.

 

[stancecoke]

did you leave the wires disconnected from each other?

Some controllers expect the brake signal high, others low. That has nothing to do with the display....

 

[furcifer]

Oh yah, this is a geared hub motor. I've never had one so I'm just learning as I go. The controller has settings related to geared motors so I think it's compatible but I have no idea. I thought the hub communicated this to the controller to establish correct settings but I'm not sure.

 

[stancecoke]

Just try to pull your brake wires high. Connect them to +5V and see, if the brake symbol in the display disappears. But be sure that you have identified the input wires, never connect +5V directly to GND!!!

 

[aae34]

First pic in the thread, i think i can see something like "xxxxxbrake: low" on the controller.
As the greens are for autodetecting, might just as well go color-to-color on phase wires.

 

[docw009]

I've seen a lot of strange effects when a three pin hall effect device like a throttle, speed or PAS sensor, and three pin brakes are wired wrong.

Brainpower stuff comes with no wiring diagrams. They expect you to look at their seller listings. Really ard if you bought one off aliexpress like it did once. It was all in chinese. Make sure you connect the throttle to a throttle input, and not a PAS or speed sensor, They don't use three pin brakes, so at least that scenario isn't happening,

 

[TommyCat]

Thank you for the precise answers, much appreciated.

Very clear to me now that the throttle is involved with the issue.

I agree that even though the voltage readings and signal output are good, where that output signal voltage is going is suspect.

To that end, this description of a Brainpower Controller shows the RED,BLACK, and GREY wiring going to “electric brake”. With another 3 wire for the throttle…

Amazon.com : Electric Motor Controller, 36V-48V Waterproof LCD Display Panel Brushless Controller Kit for Electric Bicycle Scooter, 36V-250W/48V-350W Ships Randomly : Sports & Outdoors

If that doesn’t help, perhaps giving your model number would.

 

[furcifer]

Yes, that is exactly the goal that we are working toward. That being that the brakes electrical switches or wiring are not completing the circuit between either of your BLACK and WHITE wires of the paralleled brake wiring.
With the BBSHD you just have to disconnect both brake connectors from the harness to eliminate the possibility of a defective stuck closed switch.


Since the display indicator shows that you're applying the brakes, hence keeping the controller from energizing the motor.
It would seem reasonable to find out why...


As the brake switch has no polarity sensitive connection, this seems an odd statement to me. The brake switch is just a connection between two wires. Closed when the brake is actuated, and open when the brake is not used.


Does this mean that with one brake connected, the indicator went away but the problem still persists?
Would you please expand on this point...


To revue...

During normal operation a "low brake" circuit such as the one your controller uses. Disables motor function when the brake is applied.
When the brake is applied, and internal switch changes from "open" to "closed" position. Completing the circuit that tells the controller to stop providing power to the motor, as well as displaying the "brake actuated" symbol on the LCD.

If you have electrical testing capabilities, I recommend the following.

With the battery disconnected and testing for resistance. Disconnect one of the brake cables, your 2 pin, WHITE and BLACK wires.
Probing between the two, see if they are shorted, switched, or tied together.
An infinite reading is what you want, meaning they are not connected. A resistance reading is problematic, please post value if this is observed.

This is a pic of the brake connected, black and white 2 pin lower center. It didn't change anything. The pins have been swapped to match red to white and black to black. They were originally white to black and black to white. (which also didn't work) So there's no change when 1, 2 or no brakes are connected to the controller.

*note this is when I started, notice the phase wires are color matched. This did not work.

Just to be clear, the third pic in the OP, the one with the (o!) error you mention, is me pressing the throttle, you can barely see my thumb on it far right. So yes it's throwing that code but the throttle is causing it, not the brake or lack thereof.

Weird right? I can test again for continuity in the brakes but I'm 99% sure they don't need to be connected for it to function.

 

[furcifer]

First pic in the thread, i think i can see something like "xxxxxbrake: low" on the controller.
As the greens are for autodetecting, might just as well go color-to-color on phase wires.

Hmm, OK that kinda explains things. I swapped the phase wire sensors the other day and it didn't work, then I swapped them back and the motor still didn't work. So I changed the phase wires and it still didn't work. Then I plugged the greens together and it worked, but it wasn't color to color. I thought I did something.

So if I go color to color and plug the greens together it should work? That would make me happy because the color to color on the sensor harness I don't like.

 

[furcifer]

Thank you for the precise answers, much appreciated.

Very clear to me now that the throttle is involved with the issue.

I agree that even though the voltage readings and signal output are good, where that output signal voltage is going is suspect.

To that end, this description of a Brainpower Controller shows the RED,BLACK, and GREY wiring going to “electric brake”. With another 3 wire for the throttle…

Amazon.com : Electric Motor Controller, 36V-48V Waterproof LCD Display Panel Brushless Controller Kit for Electric Bicycle Scooter, 36V-250W/48V-350W Ships Randomly : Sports & Outdoors

If that doesn’t help, perhaps giving your model number would.

That's the exact one I have. Well correction, that's the same Amazon listing as the one I have. BUT the wiring diagram on the page is incorrect, it's got the speed throttle and electric brake backwards!

In the instructions it shows the red/grey/black in the white connector as the throttle.

Weird right? The coincidence it's labelled backwards on the wiring diagram, but it's also acting like it's backwards. I can check it again and see if it works. The fact it's white is also sus. The other 3 pin is blue, black and red in a black connector. I think I need to revisit this. And of course I've lost the instructions in the mean time.

 

[furcifer]

Oh yah, I don't have it here but I'm also fairly certain the other 3 pin connector is Male. None of the throttles I could find on Amazon were female. That's why I was pretty certain the wiring diagram in the Amazon listing was wrong, and the one in the packaging was correct. But it sure seems to be acting like my throttle input is going to the "electric brake" (whatever that is) and not the throttle.

Also for clarity, the error only comes on when the throttle is actuated. And only while it is being actuated, as soon as you let go it disappears.

 

[TommyCat]

Mixing wire colors and mixed signals from manufactures labels is certainly nothing new unfortunately.

Perhaps opening up the controller and checking the wiring landing labels on the PCB would help…
SP is a common throttle signal label as an example. But alas, there are many of them too.

 

[furcifer]

So here are the 3 pin connectors. 2 female and one male. The wiring diagram calls them "speed throttle" "electric brake" and "1:1 accelerator".






The male connector I can hook up to the old throttle because the pins fit.


Hooking this up to the "electric brake" male 3 pin connector does nothing. Hooked up to the "Speed throttle" is behaves like the other throttle, the error light comes on while it's pressed and turns off.

When I hook up the throttle to the "1:1 accelerator" a new warning icon appears. ((!)) which I believe is a communication failure. This is constantly on, as soon as it powers up it turns and stays on. The wiring is different, it's hard to make out in the pic but it's wh-rd-blk. So the power wires are together. I was unable to swap them around but I don't think it matters. It;s supposed to have something to do with the PAS.
I was able to connect the phase wires colour to colour and get it to spin. Connecting the green wires reset it. It's weird though, when I first did it it sounds like the motor is spinning but not the wheel. The speedo shows 29.1km/h but the wheel does not turn. I have to unplug it and plug it back in again to get it to spin.
Also I did this with the brakes connected and without, there's no difference in operation.When the brakes are pressed the (o!) icon comes on. Also they don't seem to override the green wires being connected. The wheel continues to spin even if the brakes are pressed.

 

[furcifer]

lol, found this thread:

Brainpower Motor Controller - Throttle power issue

Hello! I'm new to the forum but have installed a couple of these Brainpower Motor Contollers before. The one I'm currently having an issue with was purchased from:https://amzn.to/3bmTP2O. The 3-wires for the throttle control are the Black/Red/Blue wires that terminate in a black plug...

endless-sphere.com

Doc says it's the male 3 pin on his Brainpower, which is labelled as the 1:1 accelerator. Searching online, some of these come with a throttle that has red-black and white, which is labelled speed throttle on Amazon, and "electric brake" on the wiring diagram that came with the controller.

I brought the controller home from the shop. I'm going to take it apart tonight and check the board.

 

[TommyCat]

When I hook up the throttle to the "1:1 accelerator" a new warning icon appears. ((!)) which I believe is a communication failure. This is constantly on, as soon as it powers up it turns and stays on.

Be careful with this as I would speculate that it means you’ve shorted the 5vdc supply to ground. (Bad)

 

[furcifer]

Be careful with this as I would speculate that it means you’ve shorted the 5vdc supply to ground. (Bad)

Yah probably. I messaged the vendor a pic and asked them to identify the throttle. I opened up the controller but I can't see and I can't get my camera to focus on the board.