HubMonster hits 107mph on the flats on page 6

It's dual Zombiess 24fet high voltage controllers. No faring, but since whales have good hydrodynamics, they probably have good aerodynamics too. :lol: I too thought it would have taken a lot more power. Maybe the stand alone shunt from Ebikes.ca is a bit off, since I haven't checked its calibration, but I doubt that's more than 5-10%. I know the wheel diameter is correct and if anything it would get larger and narrower at such high rpm. I'm going to do it again with the GPS working. While there's 2 slight downhill grades on that stretch, I wasn't all the the way on the throttle for either. I was actually on the throttle all the way twice on that highway run, and I think the second time was for longer and I tried to tuck tighter.

If I can figure out and eliminate the tire bouncing vibration, then I'll hold it for longer. The vibration made me a bit nervous. I want to get some video from inside a car too to show off the acceleration at 80 or 90kph. I'll fully charge the batteries to 126V instead of the 123.5V I left the house at this time. Since it's a real speed run instead of just showing what the motor can do for some prospective customers who have been asking, and I'll have the van along anyway as a chase car for a secondary video perspective, I'll give the bike a ride to the highway instead of a 5km run just to get on the road to do the run. With a full 4.2v/cell charge, starting with a fresh cool motor, and making the first run the money run, then assuming the 166 was accurate, 170kph is virtually assured. :twisted: Now I'm not scared in the least like I was before, so I'll peg the throttle for longer to make sure I get a true max speed.

John
 
5 stars for madness John. I like your style :) The vid from chasing car would be perfect. I did not expect that motor to reach that far. Great, great job.
 
This is impressive.

Careful with all those bikes and peds on those roads though. Up here, some people think we are crazy for biking on 14 ft wide shoulders, on a 60mph highway. CR is a bit different though.

You should have a motorbike ride alongside to verify the speed. Or some other method. Then do it both ways - the official way.

You are certainly right about full face motorcycle helmets reducing the sensation of speed. No wind noise. Even on my 3/4 face one, 35mph feels like 25.
 
agniusm said:
5 stars for madness John. I like your style :) The vid from chasing car would be perfect. I did not expect that motor to reach that far. Great, great job.
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Thanks Agniusm. I knew it could handle that power in wheel, and a lot more as a mid-drive with it geared down a bit. What still gets me is the speed, so I'm going to try a more serious run for confirmation and hopefully a bit higher number.


veloman said:
This is impressive.
Careful with all those bikes and peds on those roads though. Up here, some people think we are crazy for biking on 14 ft wide shoulders, on a 60mph highway. CR is a bit different though.
You should have a motorbike ride alongside to verify the speed. Or some other method. Then do it both ways - the official way.
You are certainly right about full face motorcycle helmets reducing the sensation of speed. No wind noise. Even on my 3/4 face one, 35mph feels like 25.
Click to expand...

That highway is the only road around I'd try a speed run on. It's about as good as it gets for a concrete roadway in the western hemisphere. It's so good that cyclists come from all over the valley to ride on it, and they're emphatic enough about it to tear down the pedal bikes prohibited signs. I'm actually more legal than they are because I have a motor and can maintain the minimum.

As far as official, I'll let a customer go for an official record if they want, because I'm not going to haul a generator around to recharge for a return run. I'm doing a repeat to make absolutely sure it's correct and get some better video, but that's it. You'll notice that once again I'm subject to a double standard, because no one else's speed or any other claims are questioned in any way. Farfle said his ebike did mid 80's mph, and we all accept it, myself included. Luke says his is gearing limited to 100mph and we believe it. When Doc said he hit 114kph that was "GPS certified" (lol on the part because my Garmin doesn't show enough consistency between segments to be reliable to me unless it's an average over a mile), no one said boo, and that's all fine. I take their word for it too. When it comes to me though, a different standard is applied. Why is that? I take a lot of care not to exaggerate anything. I'm not after any glory or records, and I don't go spamming the internet with what I do unlike someone we know. I just demonstrate what is possible, and that if I can do it anyone can. That's my contribution to the cause, and I show people both online and in person without ever riding in a reckless or discourteous manner that would cause anyone to be anti-ebike.
 
Sandals and no jacket/armor at 88mph? I'd be dressed like ironman before going 88. I can go 30 on a steep downhill and that is enough to make me put on some armor with a full face helmet, all skin covered and maybe steel toe.
I've seen a lot of guys riding motorcycles basically naked. There are only two kinds of riders, those who have fallen and those who haven't fallen yet. Try not to take this harshly, I say this because I don't want you to get hurt or die. It's your life though, and I completely support you right to do whatever you want with it so long as you aren't harming others in the process.
Insert 88mph back to the future movie reference here.
 
John in CR said:
When it comes to me though, a different standard is applied. Why is that? I take a lot of care not to exaggerate anything. I'm not after any glory or records, and I don't go spamming the internet with what I do unlike someone we know. I just demonstrate what is possible, and that if I can do it anyone can. That's my contribution to the cause, and I show people both online and in person without ever riding in a reckless or discourteous manner that would cause anyone to be anti-ebike.
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Cheers to that! I hope you are well protected on those test rides and not only with helmet but body armor and the bike is fine for such speeds.
 
I had no doubts of the 103mph.

I've seen your other bikes and the the hills they chewed up.
 
At sea level: 400lb rider/bike, with typical cyclist frontal area and coefficient of drag =

103mph takes.......................22,653watts

Frontal Area 0.70 m2
Coefficient Wind Drag 0.50 dimensionless
Air Density 1.226 kg/m3
Weight 180.0 kg
Coefficient of Rolling 0.008 dimensionless
Grade 0.000 decimal
Wind Resistance 469.9 kg m/s2
Rolling Resistance 14.1 kg m/s2
Slope Force 0.0 kg m/s2
Cadence 100. rev/min
Crank Length 170. mm
Pedal Speed 1.78 m/s
Average Pedal Force 12725.0 kg m/s2
Effective Pedaling Range 70. degree
Effective Pedal Force 32721.0 kg m/s2
Speed 46.80 m/s
Power 22653.0 watts


So yes, it's completely believable. I just changed my seat position to be really low and I'm seeing a big drop in power at speed. I know John has a low seat. He's not sitting upright like many riders. So I think the aero part is in the ballpark.
 
veloman said:
At sea level: 400lb rider/bike, with typical cyclist frontal area and coefficient of drag =

103mph takes.......................22,653watts

Frontal Area 0.70 m2
Coefficient Wind Drag 0.50 dimensionless
Air Density 1.226 kg/m3
Weight 180.0 kg
Coefficient of Rolling 0.008 dimensionless
Grade 0.000 decimal
Wind Resistance 469.9 kg m/s2
Rolling Resistance 14.1 kg m/s2
Slope Force 0.0 kg m/s2
Cadence 100. rev/min
Crank Length 170. mm
Pedal Speed 1.78 m/s
Average Pedal Force 12725.0 kg m/s2
Effective Pedaling Range 70. degree
Effective Pedal Force 32721.0 kg m/s2
Speed 46.80 m/s
Power 22653.0 watts


So yes, it's completely believable. I just changed my seat position to be really low and I'm seeing a big drop in power at speed. I know John has a low seat. He's not sitting upright like many riders. So I think the aero part is in the ballpark.
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You mean power at the wheel or consumed by the battery ? .. because there is a difference due to efficiency :wink:

Doc
 
Veloman,

Yeah, my saddle is down below 30" when I'm aboard, and for speed runs my chin is out in front of the bars. At beach level once, I set the cruise on 40mph once and it was a 600W power difference between sitting normal upright and tucked. Don't forget that I'm at about 3000ft of elevation, which gives me a few % advantage in less air resistance too. The part Doc's not considering is he's accustomed to crap efficiency hubbies that get even crappier at high rpm, but HubMonster loves going fast and was probably near 90% efficiency at top speed.

BTW, thanks for the vote of confidence, you and others.

John
 
that's insane, yet awesome. Need to have a car driving at around 64kph videoing you as you take off. I would like to see the acceleration at that speed.

I hope the controllers continue to stand up to the punishment. Without forced air cooling the inside and no temp probe I don't think I would push them much harder. Once they get over 70c the fet it starts to concern me. I personally shut down at 80c fet body temp. With forced air cooling keeping the temps reasonable you might be able to get 150a battery 225a phase out of each but I tend to stay much more conservative than most people here. If you are getting 60c on the case then I am surprised they are holding up so well. I did some improvements to help transfer the heat to the case such as polishing the sink bars, thermal pasting the sink bar to case mating surface and using individual bergquist insulators. I don't know how much of an improvement it is over the typical silicone strip most use but in theory it should be a better thermal path now.

Thanks for stress testing them further than I have been able to.
 
Video of hubmonster being processed right now.. only 35/70A per controller for testing in the middle of the night with no pegs. think I hit about 40mph in a 30. Better video tomorrow with more power

[youtube]xB8FOiIw6bs[/youtube]
 
I was thinking at 80kph. Can't cruise down the highway at 64, and I think thrust is the same anyway. I'll find someone cruising at 60ish on a normal ride and call out the speed while following, and then execute the pass.

Good advice on the cooling. I think I still have 2 of the blowers I use for controllers. One thing I've found when ventilating controllers is that it's very beneficial to direct the flow and block it from going where it's not needed. Cool air was coming out of my SteveO Super36, because he just swiss cheesed the front plate and the air flow was allowed to pass through too easily without going near the fets. I blocked half of the holes to bring the air in only along the side with the fet bars, blocked air from flowing under the board and put a couple of baffles along the way so the air flow stayed near the fet bars. That made a huge difference in the temperature of the exhaust, so I knew it was doing some good.

I pushed that 36 with 4110's to 425A/550A and rode it daily for months during our hottest time of the year, so I know how to be careful. I'm sure I'll find a tuning and voltage where they run cooler. Hubmonster is much easier to drive at over 80uH phase to phase than the 1.5 turn beast I ran before, which I think Arlo1 measured at 20-25uH.

John

zombiess said:
that's insane, yet awesome. Need to have a car driving at around 64kph videoing you as you take off. I would like to see the acceleration at that speed.

I hope the controllers continue to stand up to the punishment. Without forced air cooling the inside and no temp probe I don't think I would push them much harder. Once they get over 70c the fet it starts to concern me. I personally shut down at 80c fet body temp. With forced air cooling keeping the temps reasonable you might be able to get 150a battery 225a phase out of each but I tend to stay much more conservative than most people here. If you are getting 60c on the case then I am surprised they are holding up so well. I did some improvements to help transfer the heat to the case such as polishing the sink bars, thermal pasting the sink bar to case mating surface and using individual bergquist insulators. I don't know how much of an improvement it is over the typical silicone strip most use but in theory it should be a better thermal path now.

Thanks for stress testing them further than I have been able to.
Click to expand...
 
:D :D :D :D :D Grin Grin Grin!

Tommy L sends.....
mosh.gif
 
Yes Doc, that's 23kw at the wheel. So maybe that would take 26kw battery power on a really efficient setup. But as John says - at 3000ft, the numbers go in his favor too.

That calculation is done at analyticcycling.com - love that site.

0.7m^2 frontal area is typical for normal cyclist in a normal, 'mtn biker' position (neither tucked or aero, or completely upright).
 
I like to use this one, since it has canned input for different bike set ups and different levels of aerodynamics. I don't try to ever get a hard# except for the effects of hills. With real aerodynamics the sky is the limit.

The weather is threatening today plus I have a science project to help the 3rd grader with, so no top speed attempt today, but maybe Zombiess wish for some passing power clips if I make a run to the store...sans helmet of course. 8) I think I'll pick up some goggles and forget the helmet for the next top speed run just for those who don't appreciate that getting hurt in a fall around the house is a far greater risk than on a relatively empty highway. 8) I don't have eyewear for 100, thus the helmet last time. I want the full sensations of the experience next time, as Luke would put it. 8)

John

veloman said:
Yes Doc, that's 23kw at the wheel. So maybe that would take 26kw battery power on a really efficient setup. But as John says - at 3000ft, the numbers go in his favor too.

That calculation is done at analyticcycling.com - love that site.

0.7m^2 frontal area is typical for normal cyclist in a normal, 'mtn biker' position (neither tucked or aero, or completely upright).
Click to expand...
 
WONDERFUL John!!!
Excellent results, i remember when i use the Kelly hubmotor too, and i have many many problems after 80Volts, because Kelly controller go in error for too much spikes current...
After we try the 136V 800A controller and all go good with 120V lipo pack...the motor at no-load make 190kmh :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

All of Italian friends like your project!

Ciao da Roma :D
 
Thanks Esoria, what was the top speed you guys reached with your big diameter hubbie and Kelly?

You guys are builders who really love speed. Now you need the best motor for it. :mrgreen:
 
I go with big hub kelly motor, at 125V A123 battery and 800A kelly controller at 160kmh on the road, i read on CA 110V and 320A under load...crazy fast
After some km motor go warm, not super hot...
Seems this motor have so low impedance, generate very little heat for power you put inside, very efficient
Only thing i dislike is the PUNCH power at low rpm, is slow on startup, the POWER come after 60-70kmh, after this speed start to go like a crazy!
I understand a very low impedence motor and high rpm, surge less current at 0-low rpm, and start to put out power after the half power band...maybe kelly limit amp surge at low rpm if is too high...
 
I was looking at a e moto review and just realized that I already passed the top speed of Zero's emotos and Brammo's Empulse that sounds like a blender full of ice cubes due to the noisy chain and tranny tops out at only 105mph, so that lit a fire under my ass to hurry up and get a confirmation run with a few mph higher speed. I also need to get a flyby to demonstrate how little sound HubMonster makes, because the GoPro attached to the bike isn't representative at all. Some people apparently like the electric motor whine, but not me. I love the silence and want to find tires that are more quiet, since that's about all I hear.

I may just be a hacker, and my bike doesn't look good enough or handle well enough or have good enough brakes to sell to the public, but being faster and far more quiet than the 2 best production emoto's readily available is good enough for me. If the weather is clear in the am, expect new video Thursday. If I fall short of Brammo's 105mph tomorrow, I'll simply add 4s to the battery pack, which is sure to put me past it. Then you'll get another video update by Saturday.

Now I need to come up with something more sleek and pretty for my extra Hubmonster and the titanium Marzocchi 888's I have in route.

John
 
Wait alot new video!!! I prepare video too, with friends around Rome...
I post later :)
 
esoria said:
Wait alot new video!!! I prepare video too, with friends around Rome...
I post later :)
Click to expand...

Don't forget to put a fat guy on your bike or a backpack with 40-50kg to compare apples and apples, because I weigh 120-125kg right now, and my bike weighs 62kg.

I need to post a video of no-load too, because for me the stationary bike spinning a wheel at 194kph is scarier than riding it fast in a straight line on the highway. I keep picturing the wheel hitting the ground and the bike shooting off through a wall. :mrgreen:

John
 
Hehe...
My wheight is 70kg, and the bike maybe 40-45kg...
This is the first video i make, is not with big hub Kelly, but we all have Cromotor at 125V and Kelly 250A controller...
On light frame of bycicle is very fun and fast, we can do wheelie at 70kmh, and max speed is near 120kmh :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bOIBWPKYLk&feature=youtu.be
 
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