Huge price differences in Ebay motors vs Vendors!?

[sonnetg]

Thank you for the vote of confidence, but It's absolutely critical for me to have readily available parts. I don't want to be ordering from US vendor than having to scramble for parts from chinese vendors.

I don't think you are going to find parts in the US, but that same dealer sells the hub/wheel for $160. You can always buy a new wheel if the motor breaks after the warranty period and still be ahead of buying a more expensive system. If a spoke breaks, then a bike shop should be able to make one. I know you said that a Mac motor was more power than you wanted, but it does have parts available, though at a much higher price. If you don't want to go fast, you could get a 12T and just enjoy the torque. You could even limit the current so that you put under 500 watts in it, and maybe then it would last a crazy long time due to being overbuilt for your application.

I am trying to keep the volts limited to 24 volts. It simplifies my life in terms of batteries and balance chargers, and serves my purpose rather well for hill assist. Ebikeling does offer 24 volt option. You do have a point though. I can always a buy an extra kit which comes with a controller and the whole nine yard. Getting individual parts will definitely cost a lot more. The kit it still a great deal for $190 (http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/13). I think I will pull the trigger on it. Chances are high the clutch will be compatible with Bafang 250 Watt motors. I hope i dont have to find out.

The other option would be to order from GBK, and they do have plenty of spare parts available.

 

[rsilvers]

The right way to do a 24v motor is to wind it for a normal/desirable speed at 24v. I would still want it to put out 350 watts of power at 24v by drawing 20 amps (assuming 75% efficiency).

Their 24 volt and 36 volt appear to be the same motor. In other words, it is really a 36v motor designed for 30 kph that can be run at 24v also, but only at 12 mph.

I don't think this is a good motor to use at 24v.

 

[sonnetg]

The right way to do a 24v motor is to wind it for a normal/desirable speed at 24v. I would still want it to put out 350 watts of power at 24v by drawing 20 amps (assuming 75% efficiency).

Their 24 volt and 36 volt appear to be the same motor. In other words, it is really a 36v motor designed for 30 kph that can be run at 24v also, but only at 12 mph.

I don't think this is a good motor to use at 24v.

Yes...I know many folks at hill topper forum have successfully pushed the 24 volt controller with 36 volt batteries. The motors are definitely capable of handling 36 volts, but the controllers may not be able to deliver the power. I have a folding bike which i have the Leed 24 volt kit installed. The motor can easily reach 15 mph without any pedaling using only 24 volts on flat roads. If i pushed the motor with 36volts, it should be able to hit 18-20 mph, but speed is not what I am after. I usually pedal for the exercise, but the hilly terrain really demotivates me to take out my bike for street riding. I would like to convert my road bike and eventually my wifes bike. We both enjoy riding, but all the hills in maryland make it quite difficult for average cyclist like us.

I am shopping for decent motor kit(s) at a reasonable price. The Leed kits are a bit pricey for the options it comes with. The Leed/Hill topper kits also has an annoying push button which i really dislike, so a thumb throttle or twist throttle would be preferable.

The other benefit of using 24 volt controller is that I wont have to worry about installing annoying torque arms. As long as I can ride the country side at 10-15 mph, I would be a happy camper.

 

[sonnetg]

FYI...for those not familiar with Leed 24volt ebike kits, here's a video review. It can easily reach 18 mph with 24 volt (26" wheel). Fast forward to 6:30 if you dont wish to watch the full review.

[youtube]QgjF-eR5pZk[/youtube]

 

[rsilvers]

24v is fine - it just needs heavier gauge wire for any given amount of watts because the amps will be higher. People go to higher voltages to use thinner wire - that is all. That is the only advantage of higher voltage, as far as I know.

What I am saying is that the kit on eBay is a 36v motor. If you ask them for 24v, I am pretty sure they just send the same 36v motor.

It is just not wound for 24v and it will be slower than a motor originally designed for 24v.

 

[sonnetg]

24v is fine - it just needs heavier gauge wire for any given amount of watts because the amps will be higher. People go to higher voltages to use thinner wire - that is all. That is the only advantage of higher voltage, as far as I know.

What I am saying is that the kit on eBay is a 36v motor. If you ask them for 24v, I am pretty sure they just send the same 36v motor.

It is just not wound for 24v and it will be slower than a motor originally designed for 24v such as the Leed.

I did see a 24 volt version from ebikeling. It seems its the same controller wiring based on the pictures. I can probably call them and ask regarding the wire guage in between the 24-volt and 36-volt controller...and FETs and stuff.

24 Volt Kit: http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/13
26 Volt Kit: http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/7
Various Controllers: http://ebikeling.com/#/accessories/controllers

 

[rsilvers]

24v is fine - it just needs heavier gauge wire for any given amount of watts because the amps will be higher. People go to higher voltages to use thinner wire - that is all. That is the only advantage of higher voltage, as far as I know.

What I am saying is that the kit on eBay is a 36v motor. If you ask them for 24v, I am pretty sure they just send the same 36v motor.

It is just not wound for 24v and it will be slower than a motor originally designed for 24v such as the Leed.

I did see a 24 volt version from ebikeling. It seems its the same controller wiring based on the pictures. I can probably call them and ask regarding the wire guage in between the 24-volt and 36-volt controller...and FETs and stuff.

24 Volt Kit: http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/13
26 Volt Kit: http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/7
Various Controllers: http://ebikeling.com/#/accessories/controllers

Nope. That is a 36v motor that are calling 24v. You can tell because it says 24v 320 and 36v 480. The ratio between 24/36 and 320/480 is exactly the same, so it is the same motor. The controllers are different because they need to know when to cut off the battery for low-voltage.

You don't need to ask about wiring gauge. That is not an issue at all because they will draw the same amps (amps are all that matters for wire gauge), but at 24v the motor will draw fewer watts due to the lower voltage.

If you put 24v into this it will be about 12 because it was designed for 36v at 30 kph/18mph and so only runs to 12 mph at 24v. If that is ok with you, then you are all set.

 

[sonnetg]

Nope. That is a 36v motor that are calling 24v. You can tell because it says 24v 320 and 36v 480. The ratio between 24/36 and 320/480 is exactly the same, so it is the same motor.

You don't need to ask about wiring gauge. That is not an issue at all because they will draw the same amps (amps are all that matters for wire gauge), but the 24v will draw fewer watts due to the lower voltage.

yup...that's what I thought too. I dont think the motor is customized for 24 vs 36 volts. The only difference i see is the 36 volt controller has a higher cutoff threshold (Min volt = 30v), so a 24 volt battery wont work with the controller with a 36volt controller. On the other hand, I may be able to get a 36 volt battery to work with a 24 volt controller, but only way to confirm that would be to open up the internals and checking out the capacitors and FETs. Most of these controllers are capable of handling much higher voltages than 24 volts, but it comes with a risk of heating and burning up the FETs or damaging your battery (if there is no BMS or LVC). I dont think I would need to hot rod it though..

 

[rsilvers]

I don't think the 24v controller will work properly with a 36v battery because it would let the battery deplete to a dangerously low voltage. Many controllers are programmable, but since they offer a 24v and a 36v version, these seem to be dedicated to their respective voltages.

Buying the eBay kit for a 24v battery just comes down to if you are ok with 12mph. If you want 18 mph, you would either need a 36v battery and controller or a motor originally designed for 24v.

 

[sonnetg]

If you put 24v into this, and 24v into the Leed, the Leed will be about 30 kph/18 mph because it was designed for 24v, and this will be about 12 because it was designed for 36v at 30 kph/18mph and so only runs to 12 mph at 24v. If that is ok with you, then you are all set. Just note that the 24v controller is not going to make the motor run at the speed of the Leed kit.

So you are saying Leed has customized windings for the 8FUN motor designed for 24 volts? It could very well be true, but I am not sure about ebikeling kit. Probably worth asking about it then.

You do have a very good point though..haven't thought of motor "windings" and RPMs...will definitely ask.

 

[rsilvers]

I am not sure if the Leed is custom-wound because the difference in speed could also be attributed to 26" vs 700C wheels so it would take more investigation to be sure. I figured it was if you went 15 mph on 26 inch wheels at 24v.

I do know that the eBay kit is only claiming 12 mph at 24v, and no one would design a bike motor with a target speed of 19 kph, so it seems that it was wound for 36v.

 

[sonnetg]

I am not sure if the Leed is custom-wound because the difference in speed could also be attributed to 26" vs 700C wheels so it would take more investigation to be sure. I figured it was if you went 15 mph on 26 inch wheels at 24v.

I do know that the eBay kit is only claiming 12 mph at 24v, and no one would design a bike motor with a target speed of 19 kph, so it seems that it was wound for 36v.

You were absolutely correct. Ebikeling is using the same motor for the 24v and 36volt controller. They have all the specs on the site. I should have read it carefully. If this is the case, I will need a bigger battery for ebikeling kit, as 24 volt battery at 12 mph would be too slow.

From ebikeling web:

Voltage High Speed RPM (Stock) Low Speed RPM
24v 320 (~22mph) 180 (~12mph)
36v 480 (~30mph) 260 (~17mph)

 

[sonnetg]

By the way, I noticed they have a high speed option, which is the default kit at 320 RPM @ 24volts. This must be unloaded RPM. 22 MPH at 24 volt is too good to be true. It will probably end up being around 15-18 MPH depending on how much load it's hauling. Almost the same as Leed ebike kits.

http://ebikeling.com/#/kits/13

Wheel speed depends on the voltage of the controller. High speed motor is the stock option, if you need low speed motor let us know at checkout, please see the table below for options

Voltage High Speed RPM (Stock) Low Speed RPM
24v 320 (~22mph) 180 (~12mph)
36v 480 (~30mph) 260 (~17mph)
48v N/A 350 (~25mph)

 

[rsilvers]

That is a good 24v wind then.

You can make a 12v motor go 60 MPH by the way. Low voltage does not mean low speed. It just means that it draws more amps to get the same wattage. More amps needs thicker gauge wire.

This is why there is talk of cars going to more volts - to save on copper weight and cost for any given amount of power lost as heat.

Yes I know more volts makes any existing motor spin faster. I am referring to optimally-wound motors for each target voltage.

 

[sonnetg]

That is a good 24v wind then.

You can make a 12v motor go 60 MPH by the way. Low voltage does not mean low speed. It just means that it draws more amps to get the same wattage. More amps needs thicker gauge wire.

This is why there is talk of cars going to more volts - to save on copper weight and cost for any given amount of power lost as heat.

Yes I know more volts makes any existing motor spin faster. I am referring to optimally-wound motors for each target voltage.

Yes. You are absolutely correct, but at 24 volts and 17 amp controller, I doubt you would require more than 14 or 12 AWG wires.

 

[rsilvers]

Power is watts. I mentioned it for why designers seeking higher watts look to increase volts rather than amps.
True, it makes almost no difference for any lower wattage product.

 

[rsilvers]

By the way, I noticed they have a high speed option, which is the default kit at 320 RPM @ 24volts. This must be unloaded RPM. 22 MPH at 24 volt is too good to be true. It will probably end up being around 15-18 MPH depending on how much load it's hauling.

How close it can come to the spin rate under load is going to depend on how much torque it has, which is up to how much current / amps you can put into it. At 17 amps, you are right. If somehow you could put more amps into it, then it would be able to overcome the drag and reach that speed.

 

[sonnetg]

Just an FYI...i got a response back from ebikeling. They seem to keep all the spare parts available. I can't wait to order a kit tonight, along with few spare parts.

<quote>
<quote-ebikeline-response>
Yes, we have spokes and freewheel/gear mechanisms in stock.
Gears are $50, spokes are $15 for 10, shipped.
</quote>


On the contrary, Both Leed and Hill Topper kits do not keep the clutch assembly in stock. No biggie, but it's always nice to have a spare. Chances are I wont ever need to replace the gears or clutch, but it always good to know I have one..just in case!

I will post some pictures and a review once i get my hands on the kit. It would be nice to compare this motor with Bafang 8Fun compact geared motors.

The ebikeling kit seems to be a great deal, but time will tell how it holds up.

Cheers.

 

[rsilvers]

My prediction is that it will hold up and be fine and the bargain price has more to do with little markup in distribution than anything else. I don't really agree with people that "You get what you pay for."

 

[tomjasz]

My prediction is that it will hold up and be fine and the bargain price has more to do with little markup in distribution than anything else. I don't really agree with people that "You get what you pay for."

"You get what you pay for, in time and research." In this hobby.

 

[sonnetg]

My prediction is that it will hold up and be fine and the bargain price has more to do with little markup in distribution than anything else. I don't really agree with people that "You get what you pay for."

Yup. Considering it's a motor and most of the base R&D has already matured for most ebike motor technology. If things were as complex as lithium batteries, it would be a different story, since battery technology is still evolving. I would never cut corners on batteries for sure.

At most, the ebikeling motor may come with cheap or inferior gears and less efficient magnets or torque output, but it doesn't hurt to try new things just because it's cheap. It might be a little inefficient and slower than my Bafang 8Fun motor, but i probably wont even notice the difference going uphills. As long as the gears hold up fine and controller doesn't burn out, I will be a happy camper. I will be installing this in a beater bike anyways. I will post a review once I have it in hand.

PS: I have seen folks buying cheap generic DD motors from ebay, and being perfectly happy with it, but being a geared motor makes things a bit more complex, as it has more moving parts, so i was just being cautious on pulling the trigger. At least i needed to make sure the parts are available. It take time to fix and tinker with these things, which I would prefer to avoid :lol:

Looks like ebikeling has an online store as well. http://ebikeling.myshopify.com/collections/all

 

[docw009]

I bought a rear wheel kit from ebikeling a few weeks ago because the warehouse is 20 miles away. It was listed as a 500 watt 36 volt kit, I just got it running today. I don't think it's really 500 watts, as my wife has a 500 watt 48V cruiser bike, and that feels more stronger.

He also said I could run it at 48 volts, but the controller is a single 36 volt design. I could swap in a 48V battery but why blow things up.

I thought the rim, and spokes seemed to be good quality. The brake levers, throttle, and handlebar module seem adequate.

I haven't mounted the PAS sensor yet, so I've been riding it with the throttle, I think it will give me 15 mph w/o pedalling. I will have to mount a speedometer. I think this will be fine for riding around with my wife on her ebike. By myself, I would ride my pedal bike.

It's on a cheap steel frame bike that's 30 years old. As a result, the bike is OK, but needs some upgrades, like better brakes, and suspension, Maybe I'll move the front suspension forks from another bike onto it.

Paid $199 for the rear wheel. Bought a 36 volt dolphin battery that claims Headway cells from elifebike.com for $280. It's rear wheel geared, which is what I wanted. It was fun to build.

 

[sonnetg]

I bought a rear wheel kit from ebikeling a few weeks ago because the warehouse is 20 miles away. It was listed as a 500 watt 36 volt kit, I just got it running today. I don't think it's really 500 watts, as my wife has a 500 watt 48V cruiser bike, and that feels more stronger.

He also said I could run it at 48 volts, but the controller is a single 36 volt design. I could swap in my wife's battery but why blow things up,

I thought the rim, and spokes seemed to be good quality. The brake levers, throttle, and handlebar module seem adequate.

I haven't mounted the PAS sensor yet, so I've been riding it with the throttle, I think it will give me 15 mph w/o pedalling. I will have to mount a speedometer.

It's on a cheap steel frame bike that's 30 years old. As a result, the bike is OK, but needs some upgrades, like better brakes, and suspension, Maybe I'll move the front suspension forks from another bike onto it,

You should be able to push 48 volts on a controller rated for 36 volts. Most 48 volt controllers can be pushed to 60 volts, but i would be a bit cautious on temperature and burnt out FETs if pushing it too hard. What is your battery configuration? 10s Li-ion? If so, a 12s li-ion configuration wont hurt, and you will get more wattage out of it. Watts = Volts x Amps. if your controller is capable of delivering 10 Amps continuous, and if you push 48 volts, it can get close to 500 watts (48V x 10A = 480 Watts) If you use 36 volt configuration, it does add up up to be 360 watts.

 

[docw009]

You should be able to push 48 volts on a controller rated for 36 volts. Most 48 volt controller can be pushed to 60 volts, but i would be a bit cautious on temperature and burnt out FETs by pushing it too hard. What is your battery configuration 10s Li-ion?

I'm using a 36 volt battery, but I originally bought this 48 volt battery from lunacycle the first day he listed it. It's 14S3P with Samsung 30Q batteries. Same case as the 36 volt. He now only sells it with motor kits, but I got it alone.
http://lunacycle.com/batteries-old/52v-9ah-samsung-30q-dolphin-pack-30q-high-power/

I have looked inside my controller. I could see it had electrolytics rated for 63 volts, but didn't think I could put 48 volts into it. So I bought a cheap 36 volt, and planned to use the Luna Cycle battery for a mid mount build next year.

 

[sonnetg]

You should be able to push 48 volts on a controller rated for 36 volts. Most 48 volt controller can be pushed to 60 volts, but i would be a bit cautious on temperature and burnt out FETs by pushing it too hard. What is your battery configuration 10s Li-ion?

I'm using a 36 volt battery, but I originally bought this 48 volt battery from lunacycle the first day he listed it. It's 14S3P with Samsung 30Q batteries. Same case as the 36 volt. He now only sells it with motor kits, but I got it alone.
http://lunacycle.com/batteries-old/52v-9ah-samsung-30q-dolphin-pack-30q-high-power/

I have looked inside my controller. I could see it had electrolytics rated for 63 volts, but didn't think I could put 48 volts into it. So I bought a cheap 36 volt, and planned to use the Luna Cycle battery for a mid mount build next year.

Yeah...14S at 52 volts may be a pushing the 36volt controller a bit too far. Usually at full charge the 14S pack would deliver more like 58 volts.

You can probably build your own packs down the line to experiment with different battery configurations. I am planning on building my own packs using Samsung 29E. it's so much cheaper and easier to maintain then vendor packs.

The batteries have arrived, but waiting on some more parts and stuff. I ran into some mechanical issues with my eZee 500 watt motor on a MTB ebike conversion project, so putting it on hold for now until the disk brake spacers arrive.