Hydrogen Fuel Cell Bicycles

[liveforphysics]

...It doesn't take that much electricity to produce H2 from water, right?..."

Bugger all in fact, but the real question is: How much power does it take to release enough H2 to generate enough power to release enough H2 to generate enough power to release enough H2 to generate enough power to release enough H2 etc. etc.

Very soon you'll end up with nothing due to losses in the system.

As a power generation engineer, as well as a geek with a lifetime passion for tinkering with ICE designs, I can tell you exactly why tiny bits of HHO are able to play a large effect on an engines fuel economy. Forget about the energy from the burning HHO, it's an absolute non-factor. Also, forget about operations at anything but low throttle position cruising, unless you have a massive HHO generator.

It's all about flamewave propagation, and deflagration speeds. At extremely small percentages, hydrogen can shift the lean burn flammability limits for an effective burn from ~17:1 (depending greatly on IAT's and fuel particle size), to >25:1. This not only enables an engine to burn much more completely, but to burn more rapidly, resulting in combustion pressure peaking at a more mechanically optimal time for extracting energy though expansion, without the knock related hazards of spark timing increases or the associated increase in paracitic compression losses.

The worse off the engine's fuel atmoziation ability (aka, anything from the big 3), the greater the benefits realized by hydrogen.

For an example, on my Honda Insight hybrid, which uses lean-burn combustion technology from Honda, I was getting incomplete and unstable combustion as I tried to increase the air/fuel ratio, and during winter with cold IAT's, it wasn't even able to enter lean burn mode. Introduce a tiny bit of hydrogen into the mixture, and poof! Economy jumped from 60mpg average per tank to 70+mpg per tank, and monitering my mis-fire counts, I see about 1% of the count i get with no hydrogen. And this is an example with an engine that was all ready very good to begin with.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

 

[JS Tyro]

Out of curiosity, is that the new Insight or the original Insight?

 

[TPA]

Just don't think about what we are going to do with the fission waste! What's the half-life of plutonium? 25,000 years?

I anxiously await your, "Oh, you foolish, fuzzy-headed, tree-hugging, no-nukes LIBERAL! You simply don't know understand ..." reply.

Nuclear power can be waste free:
http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.cfm?Section=Industry_News&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=58064

Clinton gave N. Korea the reactor they needed to "generate power" because they were entitled to technological advances.

The same technological advances we are prohibited from using.

You see everyone in the world is "entitled" to advance except the US...even Iran (Obama recently stated that Iran is entitled to nuclear energy...http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/02/AR2009060200947.html)

Nuclear energy is a viable option, and folks should stop demonizing it.

 

[liveforphysics]

Out of curiosity, is that the new Insight or the original Insight?

Original Insight. Super light weight and rigid aluminum body with the lowest Cd of any mass production vehicle.

New Insight is a pig. It's essentially a civic hybrid with cosmetic body styling and interior styling differences.

 

[WonderProfessor]

We also need to start building electric cars, since we obviously can't expect everyone to ride a bike. Riding bikes are great, but it is a free country, so one needs to be able to move about in the way they so choose.

Actually, we can expect everyone (or almost everyone) to ride a bike ... especially if or when the car alternative is either too expensive or simply not there. Let me tell you all a little story. It was the early summer of 1979. I had just graduated (with a BA in math) and started working a mathematics firm. The commute was 11 miles and to reward myself, I bought a brand-new Fuji S-10S. (Fuji had just changed to 12 speeds, but the affixed sticker still said S-10S.) I rode to work a few days a week and the folks there, especially the learned Ph.D. Associates, didn't know what to make of their new hire. Since it was a math firm, odd balls were not atypical, so I was accepted without any incident. Within several weeks, the second gas crisis of the 1970's hit. (The first was earlier in the decade and far less painful.) All of a sudden, mile-long lines at gas stations became commonplace. I rode past my boss as he was sitting in his brand-new Corvette waiting for gas. That was a moment I will never forget. Within two days, the parking lot outside was almost empty and the conference room inside was filled with bicycles. Yours Truly became an instant source of advice and information -- I even conducted a class on how to fix a flat.

One week later, as the price of gas rose above $1.00, the supply of gasoline resumed. Every bike except for mine disappeared from the conference room.

Nuclear power can be waste free:
http://www.isa.org/InTechTemplate.cfm?S ... ntID=58064

As with the hydrogen mpg kicker above, let's see where the technology leads us. If it is true, great, let's do it! But as with the hydrogen mpg booster, it just sounds too good to be true. My uneducated guess is that the new fission reactor will present issues as thorny as their predecessors. New technology is often trumpeted with wild fanfare only to fall far short of its hype. Does anyone else remember the nuclear industry's motto from the 1950's or 1960's? "Energy too cheap to monitor!"

In either case, thanks to all for a serious, respectful, yet somewhat playful, dialog. We'll solve the world's current problems yet (if only to replace them with new problems to be solved)!

 

[ElectricEd]

liveforphysics wrote:
It's all about flamewave propagation, and deflagration speeds. At extremely small percentages, hydrogen can shift the lean burn flammability limits for an effective burn from ~17:1...

Neat, I have just learnt something new. It just goes to show that nothing is as simple as it appears at first blush.
So, HHO added to an ICE running carbon based fuels assists with the release of more energy from that fuel. Cool. 8)
We must remember that a HHO fueled internal combustion engine that is driving a generator that is providing power to convert water to HHO to drive the engine will very quickly come to a halt. The perpetual motion law still applies.
What a relief! I still don't have to believe in magic.

 

[JS Tyro]

The municipal transit here ran a trial of a couple of diesel buses outfitted with these H2 generators in them. The buses are no longer in service and I keep wondering what the results were. Only rumours exist and they are not good - see http://busdriverofdurham.blogspot.com/2008/07/hy-drive-technology-flops-transit-test.html

 

[Patriot]

Using the HHO generators can in some cases be useful, especially if you are using an engine with aot of known losses. Ther generator helps to recapture some of that.

However, A guy I know converted his old Toyota pickup to use an HHO generator, just like the ones you see ads for. It worked, and it actually worked well. It increased his mileage by about 10-15%. Quite interesting. Then, about a year later, his compression started dropping off, and his mileage started getting worse again. It got to the point where his truck didn't very well at all, and he couldn't even get it started.

He did another engine overhaul to see what the problem was.

Well, I'm not entirely sure of all the chemical reactions that take place with burning HHO with gas under pressure, but.... after starting with a fairly good condition Toyota engine, he ended up with a completely worn out engine that was so badly pitted throughout, that the entire engine is now only good for one thing.....

..... Recycling.

 

[liveforphysics]

The pits are from detonation. Apparently his engine lacked a knock sensor to retard his timing and protect the engine.
He either setup the air-bleed too high, or he tried to lean burn at a point other than just cruising RPM.

You gotta know what you are doing, but if done correctly, it will be less stress on an engine than normal operation. Like any engine modification, if done incorrectly, it can cause a problem.

It's funny that they tried HHO on diesel engines. Absolutely different flame propagation from a SI engine (spark ignition). Evidentially nobody involved with that project understood why HHO helps an engine. Funny and sad at the same time.

 

[ToughRowToHoe]

I seriously doubt changing reactor designs changes the nuclear proliferation problem. If we use nuclear in any form, we cannot deny any sovereign nations the ability to follow suit. Once the door is open, we are left largely to the whims of other nations in how they follow suit. If we don't want countries building bad designs we have to build their reactors for them. Thus, I think the cost of nuclear includes both the cost of building ours and our enemies. Our friends have to pay for their own.

We must remember that a HHO fueled internal combustion engine that is driving a generator that is providing power to convert water to HHO to drive the engine will very quickly come to a halt.

The explanation given for the benefit was that small amounts can aid flame propogation. In order for HHO to deliver a net benefit, the added energy efficiency benefits would only need to exceed the energy costs of hydrogen creation. With the extremely high ineffiency of ICE's, improved efficiency can well exceed the energy costs of hydrogen creation in theory. The explanation is feasible and does not equal perpetual motion.

 

[julesa]

The pits are from single hydrogen atoms penetrating the metal, then recombining into H2 within the metal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement