Hyena's e-bike builds (now with HD video)

[Allex]

(Strong)Regen ads a lot of heat to the motor, something a would avoid during a race , better take that heat during acceleration

 

[Rix]

(Strong)Regen ads a lot of heat to the motor, something a would avoid during a race , better take that heat during acceleration

Yah, thats what I was thinking

 

[Rix]

Get a chiropractor and then hit the message parlour, you will be fine, just decline the happy ending. That way the wife can't get mad :lol: .

Seems I overdid it yesterday, I'm in a world of hurt today The 20 minute drive to work today was a killer, I dont know how I'm going to manage the 2 hr drive to Newcastle tomorrow...

 

[Hyena]

(Strong)Regen ads a lot of heat to the motor, something a would avoid during a race , better take that heat during acceleration

This is true, and it's better I warp my rotors than smoke my motor.
That said I just wanna go flat out, brake hard and late and then get back on the juice which unfortunately my brakes wont allow.
Never mind, it's good to sus out how it'll all runs and then next year I'll be better armed and with much more time to prepare I'll have a more competent bike. Hopefully I'll actually have the madass running by then.

Looks like I'll get plenty of track time in which is great. They seem to be looping the events and categories for people who come and go throughout the day I guess.

Saturday:
10:00 1500 Class
10:10 Superbikes & Roadbikes
10:40 Electric Bicycles
11:30 1500 Class
13:00 1500 Class
14:30 1500 Class

Then on sunday I get another 15 minutes practise at 9:00 before the race at 11:00

I think a massage might be in order come Saturday arvo Rix! I'll leave happy endings for the track time

 

[Hyena]

Not going to get much sleep tonight. I have to leave to head off to the EV festival in 5.5 hours and I'm still putting the bike back together!

 

[Rix]

One word, DAMN!

 

[pendragon8000]

Not going to get much sleep tonight. I have to leave to head off to the EV festival in 5.5 hours and I'm still putting the bike back together

Shiiiit. That's not what we want! Good luck. I hope your back is OK. I'm sure there will be plenty of distractions from the pain/discomfort once your out there.

If you get a chance can you tell us how you wired the alarm? There's obviously many levels it can be powered at an imobalized at. Eg central locking could latch the ebrake on the controller, or cut throttle etc.

 

[Architectonic]

I know you're still alive, so that is a plus! How did everything go?

 

[Hyena]

In the end I just wired the alarm as a deterrent - no active power disabling, just screeching if you touch the bike. As it turns out it's a bit sensitive anyway and went off a few times on its own so will need looking at.

OK, a wrap up from the EV festival.

Day 1 was great, the raptor performed really well in the 1500 division and to my surprise found it was not only highly competitive against the bigger motorcycles but actually faster! I was against Grinhill on his converted ninja, Quiet Rush on the new fighter and a few others. I lead every lap and was sure Grinhill was just warming up but he said he couldn't catch me! That was until I broke an axle! The crown TC80 was a solid performer up until that point but unfortunately I was let down primarily by the controller tuning and the fact that I only finished building the bike a few hours before the race and didnt have time to tune it all properly. Although I couldn't get regen working properly (and as above it was best to run without it) something in the controller settings was causing a constant jolt of regen-like torque for a split second every time I let off the throttle and this made short work of the axle at 12kw under race conditions where I was constantly on the power and brakes over and over. I actually had a rear facing camera running on that lap and I think I lost the axle nut 2 laps prior and then it kept jerking with the pinch bolt alone holding it until the axle broke, then went spiralling off down the track! I didnt realised at the time and though I may have blown a bank of spokes or something as it felt a bit loose and the disc brake was badly rubbing. As a testament to the frame I was able to complete the rest of the lap with the wheel held to the bike only with one side of the axle remaining!!

It then started raining and by that night it was well set in and forecast to rain most of the following day. I was left with a hard decision, given it looked like I was going to win the main event was it worth the 5 hour return trip to Sydney to pick up a replacement motor ? Would the race even go ahead with the weather ? I nearly packed my spare 5403 but with a last minute rush to just get the bike finished I gave it a miss. I'm now really regretting that. Hind site is a wonderful thing huh ?

I had packed a 26" H4080 kit in the car on the off chance someone wanted to buy one at the event and I decided I'd run with that instead to at least have a crack at the final race. Fortunately Sigmacom's mate Phil lived locally and had a good workshop set up so we pulled the new H4080 apart and I drilled the covers in my usual fashion. Unfortunately I didnt have time to hook up a thermistor and figured if I took it easy and with the added air cooling holes I might be OK given how convincing my performance was the previous day. Due to the rain there was no qualifying or even practice laps so I wasn't able to assess how it'd go on the track so my first time to find out was as I lined up on the grid for the race. I thought the Newcastle university bike would be my main competitor and would roll out on race day with a secret weapon but apparently they killed theirs the day before in practise. I also thought a last minute entry from the catavolt team with a cro-style motor in a little (14" ? ) rim motard style pit bike might be a contender. The flag dropped and I sprinted off the start line and was well ahead of the competition by the first corner and maintained a clear lead throughout. Unfortunately with the reduced heat dissipation capabilities of the H40 motor, even after I started taking it easier on the power a few laps in it was too late and it had built up too much heat to recover. I backed right off when I started to smell it and quiet rush on a stealth fighter quickly caught up and took the lead. We exchanged some light hearted competitive banter, name another motorsport where you can do that mid track ? I figured if I stayed just behind him for the rest of the race I could blaze past him on the last straight at full power and take the win but the heat was already past critical and what I only smelled going forward turned out to be an impressive smoke show behind me the crowd :lol:
The bike rolled to a stop and I knew I was done. I started pushing then decided to power cycle the controller just in case. To my surprise it came to life again and I thought maybe it was the internally mounted controller that actually overheated and reset rather than the motor (which was obviously struggling too) So I went on for another lap before the motor let me know I was being exceedingly optimistic and it was a done deal. I'm guessing one of the sabvotons other clever features is it would start to detect things were starting to go bad on the phases.
Quiet Rush ended up taking the win (though I think I caught him cheating and using the pedals at one point ) and I think Grinhill ended 2nd ? Congrats guys! Sorry I couldn't stick around for the awards, I got a call from the missus that the brownie points I had cashed in for the weekend away were about to expire and traffic late Sunday afternoon going back through Sydney can be brutal.
I'll definitely be back next year and now that I know what's involved I know what to prepare for. And I have 350 days longer to build something this time too! :lol:

A big thanks to Mark and Phil who were my pit crew for the day and helped out with accommodation and last minute repairs! Also thanks to Andy/Grinhill for helping me out with a tyre for my H40 wheel and also offering for me to crash at his place. Also Sunnyboy who hung out at my "stand" and kept watch over my gear while I had to duck off and do other stuff.

I'm looking forward to going through all my pics and vids and seeing other peoples too. Quietrush had a chest mount gopro so should have some good footage

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Well done Jay!
Good on you for going to all that effort...sounds like it was well worth it even if you are an axle and a motor down.

You must have been pushing that HS4080 hard to smoke it like that. Did you just leave the same settings and push 12KW through it?
I managed to very nearly roast my HS4065 with 6KW+. Now that I've got a temp sensor installed, I can see it isn't that hard to hit 110C+ on less than 300m steep 15%+ uphill...and that's with my forced air cooling mod also.

Be interested to see some pics of that snapped axle...and how it was sitting in the frame.

Cheers

 

[Hyena]

Well done Jay!
Good on you for going to all that effort...sounds like it was well worth it even if you are an axle and a motor down

Thanks mate. Yep I said to the guys as I left that that the cost of 2 wrecked motors was well worth it for a weekend of enjoyment and entertainment.

You must have been pushing that HS4080 hard to smoke it like that. Did you just leave the same settings and push 12KW through it?

I blame Andy, he psyched me out when I saw he he had (race?) slicks on his ninja and had tyre warmers on before the race :lol: I thought if I got a strong start I could coast the rest of the way but race conditions are very different to even hard general riding. I've never smoked a H40 before yet BBQ'd this one in literally under 10 minutes so a combination of >100 amp peaks and race conditions. If I had time to hook up the temp sensor I would have been laughing given quietrush ended up winning the race with the same motor. As above, still all good fun and it's an important lesson to bring more spares! Next I'll have the madass finished so will probably race that.

Here's the where the axle broke and how it's sitting on the bike. As I said I was able to still ride the bike for the remaining lap and back to the car. It's amazing to think that even taking it easy I was probably still putting 2kw though it and it held on almost perfectly in place with just the one axle holding it.

View attachment 1

When an onlooker asked how I'd roll a heavy bike with the brakes rubbing and only one axle back to the car I assured him I'd still have enough power

 

[Rodney64]

Well done Jay and the forks look good. I see the price has gone up to $590. Luckily I got a set at the lower price.

 

[Rix]

That's good and bad Jay, you were winning and could have overalled the class if the axle didn't shit the bed on you. 12KW through a 4080 on a 26" wheel? Seems a little optimistic to me, even for only 10 minutes on flat. You may have gotten a way with it had you ran a 17x1.4 rim and shinko like I did on the Bomber when we were in Yosemite. Maybe. Could this be a sign to get your cronclones going for super high speed action? So whats the verdict on the controller? Did it cool adequately inside of the frame? Kepler has had great luck with his controller internally mounted, due to heat sinking contact with the frame, but other I know, had nothing but problems, probably stemming from not heat sinking inside the frame. All is all, based on the experience factor you gained, there is no way this trip couldn't be counted as a success. I wish we had cool events like that here within 5 hours of my location.

 

[Grinhill]

Thanks for making the effort to come up to Newcastle, Jay. The festival gets bigger each year.

Good work on the overnight rebuild, too.

I did manage a second in the 1500, my top speed was about 65km/h so it was a struggle. I suspect something has gone astray with the hall positioning in my Enertrac, I could maintain a constant speed just no acceleration.

I'll post a bit more stuff on the EV Fest thread.

Action shot from one of the official photographers:



Photo by Bill Collison

 

[Hyena]

Great photo Andy, thanks for posting it.
I had a look at the gallery and Bill has a great one of you too leaning into a corner. We won't tell anyone you were only topping out at 65, you certainly look the part in the photo! I'm looking forward to seeing what other shots he and the other photographers on the day took.
Once you get the bike sorted my 12kw won't be enough to stay in front next year!

12KW through a 4080 on a 26" wheel? Seems a little optimistic to me, even for only 10 minutes on flat.

Yes, very optimistic :lol:
It only saw 12kw peak off the line, after that it was only spending most of the race around 6kw. I flipped it back to 5kw after 2 laps but it was already too hot. If I had of bought it back in when the controller shut down the first time I may have salvaged the motor but the final lap sure smoked it. I didnt realise how close I was to actually finishing or atleast taking 3rd place until I reviewed the video last night. I thought I was only a few laps in but it seems I was only 2 short. Ah well.

Could this be a sign to get your cronclones going for super high speed action?

The batshit motor would have been a sweet! You may well see something like that next year :wink:
This race is a once a year event though so my focus will continue to be higher torque for offroading which is where/how I ride 95% of the time.
The track stuff is fun though so I'll put more effort into adapting something to suit closer to the next event. If I ride a little better I probably don't even need to be as fast. That was my first time on a track and obviously I ain't no motorcycle racer so I was compensating for a complete lack of experience with brute power.

So whats the verdict on the controller? Did it cool adequately inside of the frame?

Yeah it was fine and if it didnt bake under race conditions it'll be more than fine for general use. I much prefer to have it all dry and out of the muck in there.

All is all, based on the experience factor you gained, there is no way this trip couldn't be counted as a success

Absolutely, it was a great R&D exercise if nothing else and one of the big data points is the difference between the H4080 and TC80 despite being wound for the the same speed and both being 40mm wide. The solid stator in the crown and slightly deeper slots really set it apart for heat dissipation and endurance, even against a drilled H40.

Here's a few more pics.

View attachment 3

 

[Hyena]

 

[Architectonic]

The dude looks impressed, the woman not so much.

 

[Rodney64]

Is this a joke Jay. Or did u get pulled up.

 

[Rix]

I can tell by the look of those two cops who is what type. She is the letter of the law type, he is the spirit of the law type.

 

[Mammalian04]

I can tell by the look of those two cops who is what type. She is the letter of the law type, he is the spirit of the law type.

She's kind of hot though.... in a handcuff you to the.... yeah, well anyway. Letter of the law is no fun.

 

[Hyena]

Is this a joke Jay. Or did u get pulled up.

Yeah just a joke, I offered the guy to recharge his tazer if he needed
and then they started asking about my bike and the event. This was at the EV festival on the weekend and they'd just arrived. I'm guessing they were just assigned to show up at the address as they didn't know what was going on. The girl was asking questions like "are you all in some sort of club or something?" and initially looked of the opinion we were a bunch of lame nerds. When I told her what the bike could do though she was like "oh wow, that's awesome". I think they were used to street legal 250w ebikes and thought we looked like a bunch of mongs dressed up in motorcycle gear to punt around a track at 25km/hr top speed :lol:

I can tell by the look of those two cops who is what type. She is the letter of the law type, he is the spirit of the law type.

I reckon that's probably a pretty accurate assessment!

In other news it looks like I might have the crown back up and running sooner rather than later. I had a guy just buy a crown kit and he also has a machine shop so he's going to make me up a new tough axle Not that I think the stock one would have probably broken in normal use if not for the series of outstanding circumstances surrounding this ones failure.

 

[Samd]

Hey Jay what was the criteria for the race? Set number of laps at x km each?
What sort of speeds were you seeing fella?

 

[Hyena]

There's a number of categories but I was in the 1500 light motorcycle division which limits battery capacity to 1500whr.
On the saturday there were 4-5 practise sessions where you could get in track time before the race. Due to weather we got no practise or qualifying sessions on the Sunday and went straight to the race. It was 10 laps of the track which were just over 1km each. As I found out the hard way it's pretty hard on the motor if you're running big power. So it's not necessarily an advantage to have max power and with most of the track being twisty a lighter, more nimble bike has an advantage over bigger heavier motorcycles. Road gearing for higher motorcycle speeds with less low down torque is also a disadvantage but the "proper" bikes also had the advantage of better/fatter tyres and the slicks Grinhill was running I imagine allowed him much greater confidence in the bends. He certainly looked the part and one of the photos the photographer got of him was a cracker, it looks like he could easily be doing 100+ km/hr but in reality was only doing around 50. haha.

Talking to Danny Ripperton I think he said he hit 110 on the main straight on his TTXGP super bike. I was hitting just over 80km/hr but was backing of waaaaaay earlier see as I had a clear lead and was trying to conserve heat going into the motor. You'll see when I upload the vid shortly just how early I backed off on the main straight, cutting power about 3/4 of the way along and coasting the rest then braking right before the bend. With confidence in better brakes and no motor heating worries I'm sure I'd have been seeing closer to 90km/hr but any more than that would be optimistic. At the end of the day it's all good fun but I reckon if Andy geared his bike for a top speed of 100km/hr he'd be unbeatable with his greater rider skill/track experience.

There's also other categories such as the 2 seater and an open bike division for higher battery capacities which I may well have to enter next year with the madass. If I run the nissan leaf cells I'm planning to I'll be well over the 1500whr limit with a 60ah capacity. There were only 2 entries in the 2 seater division and I'm seriously tempted to join Andy next year but it's quiet a time and financial commitment for a few laps around the track, and then what am I gonna do with the bloody monstrosity of a thing ? haha
I did just get 2x crystalyte HS3540s laced to 20" rims in my latest order though which was going to be used for a similar buggy project for my kids. Perhaps I should just adapt it to suit to requirements of the race and have a bolt on canopy that's easily removed so they can burn around in it after the event...

 

[Hyena]

Sigmacom just sent me the logged CA data from the race.
Unfortunately the GPS signal didnt come out so we can't overlay the race track position and wattage, speed etc in real time.
It's interesting to see this info though and I'll have to borrow his bluetooth logger again some time and do some proper speed and acceleration runs so we can see exactly how the motor performs.

One thing I did notice we can see from the data is the initial acceleration. I have a detailed table of numbers here updated every 200 milliseconds but it looks like my initial acceleration off the line was 0-60 km/hr in 3.5 seconds so that's pretty neat, especially from the "little" H40. I backed off at 62 for the first bend but I'll do some 0-top speed runs later on.

Here's some of the info.
As I pretty much already knew it looks like the previous 100A current limit that I've been running with this motor for the last 2 years offers little decrease in performance over a controller programmed for 50% more current. Those extra few kw are just straight BBQing the windings.

 

[QuietRush]

You might glean a bit of data also from my Strava plot listed in the blogpost I just put up at http://store.quietrush.com.au/blog/...e-to-race-a-stealth-fighter-on-a-gokart-track which I've linked to below:

Makes for a fun time doing the post-race analysis. Especially on the physiological measures.