If you had a million dollars to invest in e-bikes

[grwsaltspring]

Hi All;

I came into some money recently and i have been thinking about areas that could use some R&D effort for those that are interested in e-bike mods.

My interest lies mostly in full suspension bike and enclosed trike designs for the home builder. IE I think I'll leave battery, motor and electronics to other more talented individuals.

So my question to all is this: "If you had access to one million dollars to take your e-vehicle hobby or business to the next level where would you want that to be spent?"

Cheers Greg

 

[Lessss]

In the very areas you excluded. SLA is too heavy and LifePO4 is still FAR too expensive.
I'd be renting a small cargo ship loading it up with a carpload of GOOD quality LifePO4 from China and dumping them on the NA market at close to cost, rinse repeat, rinse repeat, driving down the over inflated price to a fair market value.

That or putting in an order from a Continental north american manufacturer for batteries and chargers designed for ebikes and selling them.

Second bet would be on awesome controllers-
Combine a CA and controller and alarm/GPS -cell phone into one product with a usb port or sd card to extract data(possibly also to program).
Theft protections and recovery, Battery information (and protection??) as well as motor control.

 

[1of3]

In the very areas you excluded. SLA is too heavy and LifePO4 is still FAR too expensive.
I'd be renting a small cargo ship loading it up with a carpload of GOOD quality LifePO4 from China and dumping them on the NA market at close to cost, rinse repeat, rinse repeat, driving down the over inflated price to a fair market value.

That or putting in an order from a Continental north american manufacturer for batteries and chargers designed for ebikes and selling them.

Second bet would be on awesome controllers-
Combine a CA and controller and alarm/GPS -cell phone into one product with a usb port or sd card to extract data(possibly also to program).
Theft protections and recovery, Battery information (and protection??) as well as motor control.

Learn everything about LifePO4 (or such animal), find a free enterprise friendly USA location and build 'em......stamped "Proudly Made In USA by USA Citizens" in big frocking bright font

 

[AussieJester]

^^ good points all of them...

We still need a decent "off the shelf" frame to mount all this on and as far as i can tell
(aside from some very expensive full bike offerings) a stand alone e-bike frame doesn't
exist (on large scale) I think some different size mass produced e-bike frames (along similar lines to Hals frames)
that cater for mounting packs and electrics would be a good idea as is people are buying cheap
frames and duct taping huge amounts of batteries on them e.g-->



Aesthetically and safety wise not the best "poster" to sell the ebike
to the general public, nobody with half a sense of style would want
to be seen on something wrapped up in duct tape IMHO.. the added
weight on these bicycle frames IMO isn't the safest seeing the speeds they
are capable of...

JM2C

KiM

 

[Josh K.]

Well, Personally I would take our Electric trike company into production.

With a Million dollars to have invested, we would take our well tested RunAbout Cycles Spincycle trike to a manufacturer for quote, to be produced in Quantity.
Second, we would be able to go to each and every supplier, and set up bulk purchases to be able to reduce our costs of goods by around 30%.
Third, we would hire, and work with our new two wheeler design, and finish it up for production as well.
Forth, we would hire a grant writer to continue funding searching for the monies allocated towards the new clean energy economy...
Fifth we would start contacting all of the Electric bike stores in the US and Europe to set up distribution.

This would be an amazing opportunity to get a basic unit produced, several higher grade options available, and to put a E bike store business model into motion. These are the days, as more and more companies wake up to the idea of extra energy. Funding is the Challenge, for sure.

With years into this game, we have found some of the best equipment out there, and can provide turn key solutions that really create value for the end user. I aspire to help grow the industry with advancing the technologies, and availability of top end products. At 70 cents a watt hour cogs, there is opportunity to advance these options for local transportation, right here and now with off the shelf components.

Please check out http://www.electric-cycle.com and let's talk!

Thanks for the consideration, Josh K. Josh@runaboutcycles.com

 

[1of3]

So my question to all is this: "If you had access to one million dollars to take your e-vehicle hobby or business to the next level where would you want that to be spent?"

Batteries, USA built. One million bucks?.
Market; pedal bikes, scooters, moto-bikes, cars, vans, p/u, trucks, buses, biz and home (solar,wind, ect. charged)
Pretty much every one could use a decent battery at lower pricing, produced by people that have unemployment insurance, workmans comp, min wages, over time, age, sex, race, religious, (so far) political party freedoms, environmental manfacture standards all the while cutting out all that shit it takes to ship.

Oh, yea.....reality.... sorry.....

 

[bigmoose]

Invest in an integrated solution. The current market is dominated by sub-optimized piece(s) parts. The solution will be a holistic solution, an integrated solution, an elegant, yet practical, ensemble of sub systems for a defined market segment.

 

[Lessss]

Frame: Whjy re-invent the wheel? Just make the needed changes to avoid patents and electrify it.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Right now many people still don't know E-bikes exist, so a good PR campaign including getting key celebrities to be seen on them is a start...

But other than that, the area I see lacking the most is in the bike frames available. I don't believe anyone can really compete on the variety or price of the various components, but frames are very lacking in the features I most want, and which I assume would prove to be very popular.

The existing frame that is closest to what I envision is the Electra Townie (shown above, roughly $600) for several reasons. I have an MTB, because it was the cheapest way to get fat tires, front suspension, and a front disc brake ($200). But I very much disliked the seating position, which I altered to be farther back and lower. But now the vehicle weight is too far back, I pop a wheelie when I hit a bump on an uphill.

The Townie has a longer frame, and I would elongate it another few inches to make room for an optional non-hub motor. Length added in the rear between the seat-post and the front of the rear tire, just above the standard kickstand-mounting (like the Z-bike battery in the post above).

The slanted seat-post means that as a shorter rider adjusts the seat closer to the pedals, they are also adjusting the seat closer to the ground. I like how my feet are now flat on the ground at a stop instead of on one toe.

Front suspension is optional on the Townie, but the long head tube means I might NOT be able to use commonly available front forks to cheaply make changes to the front forks, I must use an Electra fork. The head tube should be the type that pops-in a hundred different off-the-shelf forks.

Both fixed forks and suspension forks should have factory V-brake and ALSO disc brake mounting points (front and rear). An affordable base-model V-brake can then be upgraded to disc without having to buy an entire new fork (or involve welding).

Rear drop-outs and all fork options will be steel. The main frame "may" be aluminum.

As Miles has identified, a splined double ENO freewheel option on the right side of the rear hub would unleash a great deal of non-hub experimental improvements (resulting in upscale kits). By that I mean allowing a small RC motor to use three internal gears from a SRAM Dual-Drive would aid efficiency and hill-climbing heat. In this way a 750W "legal" E-bike would have greater range without increasing the battery size or expense, it would remain fairly light, and would have better top-speed and hill-climbing.

In short, the frame would have a comfortable riding position, large triangle to easily fit a central battery, and would have allowances for a front or rear hub, and would also allow the most popular non-hub configurations.

 

[deardancer3]

For legal reasons a kit:

An electric trike with weather enclosure. Using the moped law so it can go over 20mph legally, but operating more like a 3 wheeled Neighborhood electric vehicle. retain pedal assist.

 

[dogman dan]

Really good full suspension frame for ebike still doesn't exist.

Designs now avaliable take too much room in the frame triangle that is needed for the battery, or have pogo issues. Some battery, or at least cargo is carried on a rear rack, so a frame that integrates FS and a stout rear rack would be good. Stout pannier supports too for carrying more battery low. The front forks would have long travel, but thick steel torque arms would bolt on in place of dropouts, with at least 3-4 bolts per arm securing them to the alloy. In the rear, a similar arangement for the dropouts, with big torque plates bolting on, or even a steel rear swingarm.

EV Global nearly had it perfect, but the hardtail was not good, and only one size front chainring would fit, and it was way too small. The perfect ebike would have front sprockets ranging from 52 teeth to 22 teeth. Mabye a 52-38-22 triple? Might need a derailur and a second tensioner to get that range of chain length, so that would have to be built into the frame too.

A place for a large controller, but still ventilated while kept dry is needed, and mabye a cable throttle, going to the same place so the bike can be ridden through, or parked in heavy rain. Mabe the trottle could be made with a finer controll too while converting to mechanical on the handlebar.

Another feature missed by some ebike frames is that they get too long, and won't fit bus bike racks. Longtails ride real nice, but my beach cruiser is 1.5 inches too long to go on the bus.

I agree, that motors need better cooling, controllers need to get better so we don't blow them by a little mistake starting up, batteries need to be cheaper, but a mil won't be a drop in the bucket towards those issues, especially battery R&D. Meanwhile frames and especially front forks continue to suck for use with higher power motors.

If building the whole frame is too much for a mil to develop, maybe just some really nice rear torque plates to fit some of the more popular FS frames like Giant , Trek, Specialized, etc. And the same thing could be developed to bolt onto the end of aluminum DH front forks.

 

[lifepo4ever]

First on all I while need less than that to start my own business and anyway I will start one in the futur if I can learn here enougth with you guys

but even if everybody have a million dollar to spend on ebike the oil company will always have the control of all kind of

energy and even if the battery become cheap the electricity price will rise up at the charge station , the only thing why I love electric vehicule because its save my planet for now but i am not sure at a long time period I really thing developing better solar panel is the only way to go battery technology is good but we also need polution free electricity production for recharge the battery . for now electricity is produce with nuclear , charcoal and oil . Here in quebec (canada) we have hydroelectric complex and we produce so much we sold to internationale and is the most clean technology I think for now.

 

[paultrafalgar]

1. Offer recumpence interest free credit on all his experimental trike constructions.
2. Commission recumpence to build a NuVinci parallel hybrid (dual right side) to use RC motor of choice for street-legal (750Watt) recumbent trike with the emphasis on making it easy for others to construct.
3. Commission Doctorbass to facilitate recycling of LiMn (Bosch-Makita) batteries for ebike use.
4. Commission Miles to set up manufacture of PMA (permanent magnet alternators) a la Emaui's design.
5. Set up a retail outlet for Ping batteries in USA and Europe.
6. Commission Justin to organize an ANNUAL trans-N.America trike/bike fest. Convoy of ebikes with a van/bus support (to carry spare batteries and recharge them en route).
Other suggestions to follow perhaps...

 

[AussieJester]

we have hydroelectric complex and we produce so much we sold to internationale and is the most clean technology I think for now.

I would add wind generated power to the list of clean power to, we have a heap of windfarms dotted all over Australia. The windmills are ENORMOUS.

KiM

 

[spinningmagnets]

"...6. Commission Justin to organize an ANNUAL trans-N.America trike/bike fest. Convoy of ebikes with a van/bus support (to carry spare batteries and recharge them en route)..."

Buses to use bio-diesel? Some of the things I like about Matts RC-drive builds are that they can be compact and light (always desirable, but also it does help when lifting bike onto a bus rack), plus they get great performance at fairly low voltage levels.

I know watts is watts, but at low voltage (24V-ish?) its possible to easily set-up a solar-PV charger at work. Nice to have that as an option.

No single frame will satisfy everyone (nor should it). But I'm thinking about the biggest hold-back affecting the widest range of potential E-bike buyers. There's a greater saturation of Ebikes-to-population in Japan, in spite of a 15-MPH limit. There will always be the guy who wants an affordable bike and will attach a modest low-cost/low-power/short-range stystem. He may possibly want to upgrade some part later, but....

Then there's the guy that instead of upgrading gradually, right away he wants double disc brakes, front suspension, Thud-buster suspension-seat, long-range 20-aH lithium battery, NuVinci internal gearing, and a high-speed high-torque motor of choice (front/rear/or non-hub).

We shouldn't have to get a new frame or new forks to be able to upgrade some part on the bike we have...

Steel frame lugs are available for purchase, can aluminum tubing (cut and bent by me) be brazed into steel lugs?

 

[Anonymous]

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[EMF]

This reminds me of the old joke about the farmer that won the 1 million dollar state lottery. When asked what he was going to do with the money, he said:

"I'm gonna keep on farmin'...until it's all gone!"

 

[fechter]

I'd set up my BMS circuit for mass production so the price could be less than the stupid batteries it's protecting. Right now, the BMS seems to be a barrier to widespread use of advanced battery chemistries.

 

[grwsaltspring]

Hey everyone thanks for the feedback!

Give me a few days to digest the suggestions and do a bit more research.

It is going to be a busy week getting the roof on the workshop and house.

I'm back to school for the next 4 weekends but keep the ideas coming and I'll follow up in a bit.

Cheers Greg

 

[317537]

If I had a million dollars to invest in ebikes I would buy myself a fleet of runners and setup by the sea and rent them out to tourists. I would do tours in trikes like a rickshaw but electrified. I would sub contract to do tours all over by supplying the ride of a life time to and from where ever that is practical. I would summons enough resources to develop battery tech and look at ESU capacitor tech or something that uses common elements.

You know lead might be heavier than another tech but it doesnt have to be.

 

[John in CR]

I'd design a compact and lightweight 2 or 3 speed transmission for ebike use that can stand up to several Kw of electric motor loads. I'd also look into the potential of a multi-speed transmission in a geared hubmotor. Thirdly, I would develop and produce a purpose built ebike frame and suspension that is more like a motorcycle in dimensions and geometry than a typical upright bike. ie something that is rock solid and safe well above legal ebike speeds. By selling all the pieces separately, but that are easy to assemble, then you can give people the power they want.

John

 

[317537]

I'd design a compact and lightweight 2 or 3 speed transmission for ebike use that can stand up to several Kw of electric motor loads. I'd also look into the potential of a multi-speed transmission in a geared hubmotor. Thirdly, I would develop and produce a purpose built ebike frame and suspension that is more like a motorcycle in dimensions and geometry than a typical upright bike. ie something that is rock solid and safe well above legal ebike speeds. By selling all the pieces separately, but that are easy to assemble, then you can give people the power they want.

John

I like the gearing idea however I would try to base the research into electronic gears, de-advancing timing under loads and advancing under high rpm. The timing needed to be adjusted is so small to gain the advantages needed to run a motor with little assistance of gears. I like to keep with the whole concept of brushless motors and decreased moving parts and rely upon creative electronics to do the mechanics.

 

[deardancer3]

For a bit more fun and a bit less work, get a big sail boat yacht and run velomobiles from Europe to the USA. add e-assist while in transit, test them in Bermuda.
d

 

[317537]

Delta-wye config is one example of how timing can present much gains with little changes to the config needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]TAaTO67zWfw[/youtube]

LOL Drbass blew the controller.

 

[RB Cats]

Well I am working a tilting design with two front wheels with a full suspension. My design will not only tilt, but will allow the front wheels to move forward and as they move forward they move closer together. This will increase the wheel base length in order to improve high speed stability and the bike will perform more like a bi-cycle than a tri-cycle when at high speed. Now when coming to a stop; the wheels will start to go to max distance apart. This will allow the machine to improve low speed stablity and should allow the rider to balance themselves without placing a foot down on the road or puddle. Now the rider can have their feet on the pedals ready to go. The rear suspension on my design will allow the rear wheel will rotate under and go between the two front wheels allowing the bike to fold.

Since I am planning on using two front PMA motors, this will double electric braking power so no additional front brakes will be needed. Since now I have additional load carrying due to two front tires on this design, I am thinking about using supercapactors to more efficently capture energy produced by the electric PMA generated power. The electric braking will also be anti-lock in order to control the additional braking power that two front wheels can produce. By using a twist grip type throttle controlled by the twist grip and then will allow the bike to go into reverse again with having to place a foot or feet down to push backwards. On my current bike I have a Sachs 5 speed internal rear hub with a drum brake built in. But I am considering using a DaVinci CVT hub with a disk brake on the next bike that I build. I would also like to use a shaft drive or a belt drive with a internal geared hub or a CVT hub.

O