If you had a million dollars to invest in e-bikes
- Thread starter grwsaltspring
- Start date
317537
10 kW
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Yes I am wondering about dual motors with regen. Does this increase regen efficiency or decrease it. I would guess there is an advantage to having this brake power and with your super caps will provide a healthy buffer for energy to go to and from. Using lithium would be your best choice of chemistry when using caps as other tech doesn’t take high peak currents too well. There is only so much capacitance you can utilise before a capacitor current supply demands become an issue.
Then you need to use low resistance to filter oversupply or overdraw to or from any of your electronics.
Everytime you acclerate you no doubt skim off the surface charge first from your caps as a result that gets replaced by the battery at the speed the cap can draw it, add that to your motors demands, thats pretty fast. Wehn in regen you charge your caps faster than batts then this gets dumped into your battery. The ideal situation with regen and high capacitance is hard to achieve.
This is why I figure a circuit based on the below design could help.
The resistor near the cap is of lower value than the diode resistor. The diodes are schotkkey diode rated at 40 amps and has the smallest voltage drop in it’s class and allows maximum energy and power from the battery to the controller.. The diode resistor is to allow regen into the battery from both cap and controller but is of higher value so current is spilt into two paths favouring the capacitor.
Id imaging using 10 X 1 watt 1ohm resistors totalling .1ohm for the cap, they have good leads and plenty of surface area to keep heat down. You would need to consider the resistance of the controller and batteries to balance this thing perfect. And something a little less robust for the diode bypass resistor of about .3 ohms 7 watts.
Running those resistors parallel to the positive will increase any amount of power required from both components. However at a cost of wasted efficiency due to the diode drops but you want to favour your caps here and if you can get at least 90% of your regen in the cap and your capacitance is 10% = to your battery capacity your wont realise to much but a tiny bit off your top speed with a good load of regen under your belt.
When the cap is recharged to full, the power bypass resistor will allow additional current to be replaced in the battery and if you pick your values perfect the result will be higher voltage than the peak output from the diode. Because the cap resistor is lower than that diode resistor again your resistor values combined need to deliver higher than output. You don’t want more than the smallest of voltage drop over any and all of the resistors.
Regen is decided by your battery input to your controller over motor output, so in essence this will not disrupt regen from working but more make less use of the voltage level differences because of the diodes. This again is no concern as regen is affected by your battery voltage as soon as it switches on. Being lower by .5v should not be too much of an ask. Regen could go much higher than the battery pack so all you are doing is losing a wee bit of current in the exchange.
The diode is there to split regen into the resistors and to give max current supply from the batt pack to controller. The low resistance of the cap resistor allows for max cap current to supply the controller and the resistor diode is there to stop the over the bypass causing a drop and wasted power.
This could work as a good buffer in delta mode motors and capture more energy fast.
The caps you need for this are either not invented or very large and expensive. Eestor will no doubt revolutionise capacitors energy field even if they don’t come up with the ev pack from heaven.
50 farads at 60v would be a start, 200 farads at 100v would be what the doctor ordered, 500 farads at 100v and you’re in regen heaven. But alas at this size and price ist’s not worth a look.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7511&hilit=JCG
Some excellent tests done here, and some very promising results. Still a little big for my liking but he wouldn’t need this much capacitance to improve regen.
Then you need to use low resistance to filter oversupply or overdraw to or from any of your electronics.
Everytime you acclerate you no doubt skim off the surface charge first from your caps as a result that gets replaced by the battery at the speed the cap can draw it, add that to your motors demands, thats pretty fast. Wehn in regen you charge your caps faster than batts then this gets dumped into your battery. The ideal situation with regen and high capacitance is hard to achieve.
This is why I figure a circuit based on the below design could help.
The resistor near the cap is of lower value than the diode resistor. The diodes are schotkkey diode rated at 40 amps and has the smallest voltage drop in it’s class and allows maximum energy and power from the battery to the controller.. The diode resistor is to allow regen into the battery from both cap and controller but is of higher value so current is spilt into two paths favouring the capacitor.
Id imaging using 10 X 1 watt 1ohm resistors totalling .1ohm for the cap, they have good leads and plenty of surface area to keep heat down. You would need to consider the resistance of the controller and batteries to balance this thing perfect. And something a little less robust for the diode bypass resistor of about .3 ohms 7 watts.
Running those resistors parallel to the positive will increase any amount of power required from both components. However at a cost of wasted efficiency due to the diode drops but you want to favour your caps here and if you can get at least 90% of your regen in the cap and your capacitance is 10% = to your battery capacity your wont realise to much but a tiny bit off your top speed with a good load of regen under your belt.
When the cap is recharged to full, the power bypass resistor will allow additional current to be replaced in the battery and if you pick your values perfect the result will be higher voltage than the peak output from the diode. Because the cap resistor is lower than that diode resistor again your resistor values combined need to deliver higher than output. You don’t want more than the smallest of voltage drop over any and all of the resistors.
Regen is decided by your battery input to your controller over motor output, so in essence this will not disrupt regen from working but more make less use of the voltage level differences because of the diodes. This again is no concern as regen is affected by your battery voltage as soon as it switches on. Being lower by .5v should not be too much of an ask. Regen could go much higher than the battery pack so all you are doing is losing a wee bit of current in the exchange.
The diode is there to split regen into the resistors and to give max current supply from the batt pack to controller. The low resistance of the cap resistor allows for max cap current to supply the controller and the resistor diode is there to stop the over the bypass causing a drop and wasted power.
This could work as a good buffer in delta mode motors and capture more energy fast.
The caps you need for this are either not invented or very large and expensive. Eestor will no doubt revolutionise capacitors energy field even if they don’t come up with the ev pack from heaven.
50 farads at 60v would be a start, 200 farads at 100v would be what the doctor ordered, 500 farads at 100v and you’re in regen heaven. But alas at this size and price ist’s not worth a look.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7511&hilit=JCG
Some excellent tests done here, and some very promising results. Still a little big for my liking but he wouldn’t need this much capacitance to improve regen.
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BiGH
100 kW
i'd be looking at brinigng motorcycle class bikes and more speifically trikes to market. The biggest problems I see with ebikes is:
1. Legal issues- power limits etc
2. people who don't think riding can transport them without being sweaty and smelly
3. a slightly nerdy image.
developing a series of bikes that overcome these issues and provide reliability would be great. if you can make a bike thats a reasonable cost, that addresses these issues, and is more desireable and practical than taking the car I think you'd have a winner.
1. Legal issues- power limits etc
2. people who don't think riding can transport them without being sweaty and smelly
3. a slightly nerdy image.
developing a series of bikes that overcome these issues and provide reliability would be great. if you can make a bike thats a reasonable cost, that addresses these issues, and is more desireable and practical than taking the car I think you'd have a winner.
TylerDurden
100 GW
For a million, you might be able to get Hal's frames into production.
317537
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 939
The wife took the tank out and sprang a leak and rode it home on the rim.
Its all good but the inner tube is finished. With what I had left over with my tourist idea Id invent a tire and tube that would never let me down.
Now im half blind from playing with this cree led, cant see my keys in the dark. OMG they are bright.
Its all good but the inner tube is finished. With what I had left over with my tourist idea Id invent a tire and tube that would never let me down.
Now im half blind from playing with this cree led, cant see my keys in the dark. OMG they are bright.
RB Cats
1 mW
Sounds a bit too complicated - too many moving parts, too many variables. Keep it simple, design for a purpose.... form should follow function.... and research, research, research.
My Tilting design revolves around my bearing assembly that I envisioned in order to make a stable platform when at a full stop; I call it the Murphy Bearing. When I first envisioned this bearing I went to Bearing Headquarters, as I thought I should be able to buy such a simple bearing. It was here that I found out no such bearing exists. So I had to hand build them, I am now on by third prototype of a tilting front fork using the Murphy Bearing. The first two protypes I utilized old bicycle/motorcycle parts. Then after researching the design of a old style motorcycle type fork, I realized how easy it would be to incorporate the Murphy bearing into it. and turn it into a tiling design with Ackerman steering as the first two designs the wheel would (Swing) move into the riders space. The use of the Murphy Bearing makes my design much simpler than the Wesll suspension. (I think this covers the Sounds a bit complicated- too many moving parts)
It was on this third design that I realized that the Murphy bearing would now allow movement of the front wheels forward/backward. This allows for increasing the wheel base for stability for increased speed yet allows for the stability at low speeds and stopped. Also this fork is designed so it can be also adapted on a standard bicycle frame. it is not a recumbent. With addition of addition of Ackerman Steering the handling will be much inproved. (This covers design for a purpose.. form should follow function)
Since I believe that three wheel designs are the future of E-bikes as they are much more stable and able to carry greater loads than 2 wheeled vehicles. Also the three wheel design will allow the rear wheel to swing up and go between the two front wheels. This allows the bike to fold and have a rear suspension if desired. (Again, this covers design for a purpose... form follows function)
I was talking with my local Piaggio/Vextric motor scooter dealer about the tilting system used on the MP3, he told me that Vectrix designed the tilting system and sold the rights to it Vespa as I am concerned about patient infringement on this design. http://www.gizmag.com/go/5644/ I went to Interbike last year and again this year to see the electric bicycles and to talk to a to people about my design and future of electric vehicles. I attended the Light Electric Vehicle Association meetings and net-working dinner at Interbike this year and made great contacts. I have been trying to obtain the hub motors that I need for my design now I have two or three different sources. I now have a source for the suspension parts that I need so the old style motorcycle fork will have a modern suspension system. Met the owner of V is for voltage forum at the networking dinner. I have spend countless hours talking with anyone who will discuss with me my idea's for this design over the last three years. I have researched and searched for people to help me build this machine for years and within the last 2 to 3 months so many things have happened, come together (So to speak) such as during the meeting of the newly formed electric vehicle club. I met a Mechanical Engineer who is building a electric velomoble as his project for completing his Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering and he only lives 7 tenths of a mile from my house has a great home shop and access to even better machine shops. He teaches part time at a trade school and has students who can build protypes. While I was flying back home from Interbike I meet the wife of bicycle distributor of a high end trike here that is about 1/2 hour away. (research, research, research)
My Tilting design revolves around my bearing assembly that I envisioned in order to make a stable platform when at a full stop; I call it the Murphy Bearing. When I first envisioned this bearing I went to Bearing Headquarters, as I thought I should be able to buy such a simple bearing. It was here that I found out no such bearing exists. So I had to hand build them, I am now on by third prototype of a tilting front fork using the Murphy Bearing. The first two protypes I utilized old bicycle/motorcycle parts. Then after researching the design of a old style motorcycle type fork, I realized how easy it would be to incorporate the Murphy bearing into it. and turn it into a tiling design with Ackerman steering as the first two designs the wheel would (Swing) move into the riders space. The use of the Murphy Bearing makes my design much simpler than the Wesll suspension. (I think this covers the Sounds a bit complicated- too many moving parts)
It was on this third design that I realized that the Murphy bearing would now allow movement of the front wheels forward/backward. This allows for increasing the wheel base for stability for increased speed yet allows for the stability at low speeds and stopped. Also this fork is designed so it can be also adapted on a standard bicycle frame. it is not a recumbent. With addition of addition of Ackerman Steering the handling will be much inproved. (This covers design for a purpose.. form should follow function)
Since I believe that three wheel designs are the future of E-bikes as they are much more stable and able to carry greater loads than 2 wheeled vehicles. Also the three wheel design will allow the rear wheel to swing up and go between the two front wheels. This allows the bike to fold and have a rear suspension if desired. (Again, this covers design for a purpose... form follows function)
I was talking with my local Piaggio/Vextric motor scooter dealer about the tilting system used on the MP3, he told me that Vectrix designed the tilting system and sold the rights to it Vespa as I am concerned about patient infringement on this design. http://www.gizmag.com/go/5644/ I went to Interbike last year and again this year to see the electric bicycles and to talk to a to people about my design and future of electric vehicles. I attended the Light Electric Vehicle Association meetings and net-working dinner at Interbike this year and made great contacts. I have been trying to obtain the hub motors that I need for my design now I have two or three different sources. I now have a source for the suspension parts that I need so the old style motorcycle fork will have a modern suspension system. Met the owner of V is for voltage forum at the networking dinner. I have spend countless hours talking with anyone who will discuss with me my idea's for this design over the last three years. I have researched and searched for people to help me build this machine for years and within the last 2 to 3 months so many things have happened, come together (So to speak) such as during the meeting of the newly formed electric vehicle club. I met a Mechanical Engineer who is building a electric velomoble as his project for completing his Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering and he only lives 7 tenths of a mile from my house has a great home shop and access to even better machine shops. He teaches part time at a trade school and has students who can build protypes. While I was flying back home from Interbike I meet the wife of bicycle distributor of a high end trike here that is about 1/2 hour away. (research, research, research)
Lock
100 MW
Public bike sharing systems are hot right now (I'll suggest with a bright future.) At least one (hilly) Italian town opted for a power-assist fleet. Many of the large fleets are run under contract to ad firms trading urban ad space. An intelligent (networked, alarmed, GPS tracking) ebike fleet would replace much of the infrastructure these fleets have been relying on so far (bike rack/rental stands every 300m etc), reduce incidents of theft and abuse, enable monitoring of battery pack health, incorporate preventative maintenance, include mobile repair service...
http://bike-sharing.blogspot.com/
Tks
llOk
http://bike-sharing.blogspot.com/
Tks
llOk
HAL9000v2.0
10 kW
TylerDurden said:
With 1M$ I will make giant injection mould and make frames out of recycled polypropylene.
If the 1M$ will be gift the frames will cost under 50$. And first 2500 will be free.
I have design :wink:
BiGH
100 kW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvmwIaBevbM&feature=fvw
bring that into production
bring that into production
317537
10 kW
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- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 939
BiGH said:
Hey thats not too bad. Solved a lot of parking issues. I would rather small strong shoulders and two shockies on that rear suspencion (suspension), just seems a little narrow for the width of the wheel base. And it needs a bumper bar to hit and kill small animals and to put a number plate on.
1of3
10 W
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2009
- Messages
- 93
With 1M$ I will make giant injection mould and make frames out of recycled polypropylene.
If the 1M$ will be gift the frames will cost under 50$. And first 2500 will be free.
I have design :wink:[/quote]
That's a damn good idea. Yea.... why stop at the wheels..... those are everywhere.... damn good idea.
I recently watched a documentary/movie about plastic pollution. Horrible world wide problem. Yuk.
If I remember correctly it is (polypropylene), a plastic type being used for damn near everything that can be reformed w/o loss of strength simply by bring it to temp.
What a cool project that'd be. Ha..Hah...!! Instead of my daughter being taught to just sing praises to our latest savior/group in D.C.
Her girl scout buddies can do a drive for plastic around the neighborhood and show 'em "teachers" a viable/productive/marketable/green/non-strip mining, ect. way to produce structurally sound transport. That'd be funny as hell...... lil' girlz actually "doing" something to really help...... I smell a Peace Prize......
Ya think the molten plastic would "have" to be injected under pressure or good enough just poured....? (back yard project) Ya know 'em plastic shipping pallets are freagin' tough bastards.....
I gotta all metal concrete mixer that can handle a propane torch flame to heat drum to melt plenty all at once..... no cold joints..... battery/charger/conduits/needed metal parts/bearings/springs/ect.. laid in prior to pour/injection....
make mommy a lil' nervous ....again....haha
If the 1M$ will be gift the frames will cost under 50$. And first 2500 will be free.
I have design :wink:[/quote]
That's a damn good idea. Yea.... why stop at the wheels..... those are everywhere.... damn good idea.
I recently watched a documentary/movie about plastic pollution. Horrible world wide problem. Yuk.
If I remember correctly it is (polypropylene), a plastic type being used for damn near everything that can be reformed w/o loss of strength simply by bring it to temp.
What a cool project that'd be. Ha..Hah...!! Instead of my daughter being taught to just sing praises to our latest savior/group in D.C.
Her girl scout buddies can do a drive for plastic around the neighborhood and show 'em "teachers" a viable/productive/marketable/green/non-strip mining, ect. way to produce structurally sound transport. That'd be funny as hell...... lil' girlz actually "doing" something to really help...... I smell a Peace Prize......
Ya think the molten plastic would "have" to be injected under pressure or good enough just poured....? (back yard project) Ya know 'em plastic shipping pallets are freagin' tough bastards.....
I gotta all metal concrete mixer that can handle a propane torch flame to heat drum to melt plenty all at once..... no cold joints..... battery/charger/conduits/needed metal parts/bearings/springs/ect.. laid in prior to pour/injection....
make mommy a lil' nervous ....again....haha
alswiseowl
100 W
- Joined
- May 3, 2008
- Messages
- 255
if i had 1million bucks.
i would spend 200-400gees on a back yard tinkerer like aussie jester,+ others who can build custom bike frames.specifically for electric use...like the tidalforce frame,where u can put all the wiring thru the frame,but better if possible,of course first you need designs on paper before a prototype
but basically anyone with any innovations aswell,but whom lack the funds for there idea or ideas,& what not.
also how about a hub motor that could have a removable shaft or spindle,+ a frame where the drop outs didnt have a drop out so to speak(to eleimanate the need of torqe arms) just a thought,if it made anysense
then with the remainder of the funds, id use to back up what ever idea,or ideas,innovation,invention,ect.that you have discovered with your initial oulay....
like manufacturing,marketing,& what have you
eitherway best of luck with your investment..
Alex
i would spend 200-400gees on a back yard tinkerer like aussie jester,+ others who can build custom bike frames.specifically for electric use...like the tidalforce frame,where u can put all the wiring thru the frame,but better if possible,of course first you need designs on paper before a prototype
but basically anyone with any innovations aswell,but whom lack the funds for there idea or ideas,& what not.
also how about a hub motor that could have a removable shaft or spindle,+ a frame where the drop outs didnt have a drop out so to speak(to eleimanate the need of torqe arms) just a thought,if it made anysense
then with the remainder of the funds, id use to back up what ever idea,or ideas,innovation,invention,ect.that you have discovered with your initial oulay....
like manufacturing,marketing,& what have you
eitherway best of luck with your investment..
Alex
Hal, your idea of using injection molding to make an E-bike frame sounded very interesting. I looked for examples on the web, and there's a company in England making an E-bike with fiber-reinforced injection molded plastic, and they use magnesium inserts to add strength in certain places.
20" wheels, motor is in the front hub, and battery/controller is hidden inside
http://www.time-compression.com/x/guideArchiveArticle.html?id=11046
20" wheels, motor is in the front hub, and battery/controller is hidden inside
http://www.time-compression.com/x/guideArchiveArticle.html?id=11046
HAL9000v2.0
10 kW
I ment this frame...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=61027#p61027
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=61027#p61027
Great link Miles. Hal, I only meant to say the idea of injection molding an E-bike frame is not crazy, its been tried and it works!
deronmoped
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2008
- Messages
- 706
grwsaltspring said:
Heck, I did a full suspension e-bike for about $600.00.
The parts are out there, you just need to assemble them.
I took a Giant LaFree and built a custom bracket so I could make it full suspension with the addition of a Walmart frame. Added some good suspension forks and away I went. The LaFree drives through the gears which is a big plus in off roading.
I'm thinking this will be the next big market in bikes, there is huge potential for a real good E-mountain bike. If you have ever ridden one, you would be hooked.
Deron.
deronmoped said:
I also think that good e-mountain bikes (The kind with dual suspension) have really good potential. I only say that because the idea seems particularly appealing to me, since a "mountain bike" has ideal versatility (And it sounds like a HUGE amount of fun).
lesspedal
100 W
If i had a million i would retire from work and enjoy my elation emtb. 8)
HAL9000v2.0
10 kW
Miles said:
For that big surface i'll say 500t press will be needed and with mould 1M$ hardly covers it...
SpeedEBikes
100 W
Many of these posts are naive about how far a million dollars can go.
If you are looking to 'invest' a million dollars in e-bike technology I'd suggest you buy gold with $999,000 and spend the last grand on books, browsing the internet, Doritos and coke or doughnuts and coffee. After sufficient time studying you might have good insight for a bite sized project that you could actually make a go of with only a million bucks with a good shot at success.
There have been lots of failed ebike businesses with much better capitalization. And there are some slowly growing businesses that started out with much less.
Anyway, there is huge room for improvement in all aspects if ebikes. There is need for better frames, motors, transmission, batteries and especially electronics, such as controllers, chargers, BMS units, etc. But there are also a lot of great parts already available and one can easily design and build a wide variety of excellent ebikes today. The biggest problem is that the cost to do a quality build is higher than most people are willing to pay for the end result.
If you are looking to 'invest' a million dollars in e-bike technology I'd suggest you buy gold with $999,000 and spend the last grand on books, browsing the internet, Doritos and coke or doughnuts and coffee. After sufficient time studying you might have good insight for a bite sized project that you could actually make a go of with only a million bucks with a good shot at success.
There have been lots of failed ebike businesses with much better capitalization. And there are some slowly growing businesses that started out with much less.
Anyway, there is huge room for improvement in all aspects if ebikes. There is need for better frames, motors, transmission, batteries and especially electronics, such as controllers, chargers, BMS units, etc. But there are also a lot of great parts already available and one can easily design and build a wide variety of excellent ebikes today. The biggest problem is that the cost to do a quality build is higher than most people are willing to pay for the end result.
317537
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2008
- Messages
- 939
Thats why I thought up the toursist E-bike fleet rentals would work as it is cheap, you get a lot of stuff to play with and learn about what works and gain valuable experience. Make people who rent sign disclaimers to avoid high insurance premiems. A fleet of 10/20 ebikes is not going to cost you a fortutne. The only other expense I see is a shop front, web site and a decent ebike with bike rack trailer to pick up bikes that arent running and a car and trailer to service non local areas , I'd push profits slowly into solar panels for cheaper charging over years and use the panels for power until I run out of years. I see the solar panels as a life investment and will do me till I'm 70yo and the outlay on the ebikes would keep me in ebike parts for a long time to come.. Id always have an ebike to ride.
grwsaltspring
10 W
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- Feb 25, 2008
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- 74
I recently had a conversation with a client about the need to get the ideas on the table before we started to assess their merit.
My intention with the post was to hear some different view points about e-bikes and what might be missing in the marketplace. Churn things up as it were.
One idea can often lead to another. Just look at what has been going on with Gary, Miles and Liveforphysics. Cool stuff ! 8)
I appreciate "ALL" of the input. Certainly not everything interests me, but a lot of great ideas have been offered up.
I especially like the stuff I hadn't even thought about before.
Cheers Greg
My intention with the post was to hear some different view points about e-bikes and what might be missing in the marketplace. Churn things up as it were.
One idea can often lead to another. Just look at what has been going on with Gary, Miles and Liveforphysics. Cool stuff ! 8)
I appreciate "ALL" of the input. Certainly not everything interests me, but a lot of great ideas have been offered up.
I especially like the stuff I hadn't even thought about before.
Cheers Greg
liveforphysics
100 TW
For $5,000usd, I could build an E-bike that will do 100mph, and will effortlessly wheelie on demand. (and I'm going to do it)
That would leave $995,000usd out of the million to use wisely, and never need to work another day of your life if you invest properly.
IMO, no matter what is done to hype E-bikes, or build fantastic E-bikes using current technology, it's going to be only a small niche market. This comes down to energy storage. It's finicky, it's heavy, it's bulky, and any of the better performing technologies aren't idiot (general consumer) proof.
Motors exist that would meet consumer standards, same with controllers, and of course there are thousands of options in frames. Batteries are the hold-up for EV's.
That would leave $995,000usd out of the million to use wisely, and never need to work another day of your life if you invest properly.
IMO, no matter what is done to hype E-bikes, or build fantastic E-bikes using current technology, it's going to be only a small niche market. This comes down to energy storage. It's finicky, it's heavy, it's bulky, and any of the better performing technologies aren't idiot (general consumer) proof.
Motors exist that would meet consumer standards, same with controllers, and of course there are thousands of options in frames. Batteries are the hold-up for EV's.
paultrafalgar
10 kW
You want to go 100mph on a bicycle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!liveforphysics said:
Flip city!
