I'm zero for two building a bike from the frame up. Now venturing into ebike world, and I need help.

[oneboot]

Hello all, first, I'll list my requirements / budget:
Rider Height - 5'8"
Rider Inseam - 28-29"
Rider weight - 300+ lbs.
Preferred Frame Type - Mountain with Jones Loop Bars
Experience with riding any bike - Used to bike commute 5 days a week in 2019-2020. Now I make more money, and have a car, so I only stare at the worthless bike in my garage.
Goal - To be able to do 30+ mile rides with my friend along the Banks-Vernonia trail in Oregon come spring / summer.
Budget - Non-existent. I mean less than $10k, but I'll do whatever it takes to be able to ride comfortably with quality components, and a bike that I can do maintenance on myself.
I will not be commuting, as I now live 50+ miles from work. But I'd need the bike to be light enough to put on a hitch bike rack (battery removed of course) so I can take it to trails with by friend. Not MTB trails, just nature trails.

Current bike is non-electric. Titanium litespeed Pinhoti frame, size large. Carbon mountain boost fork. Chris King carbon wheels, GX AXS rear derailleur, the works.

I can ride it, but standover is a little high, and I'm not as upright as I'd like to be, even with maxed out spacers and Jones Bar (non-2.5 version).

I took this setup to a bike-fitter, and he said it would be good, and eventually I'd get more comfortable leaning over, but I need something that works now.

I've thought of removing the clipless pedals, installing a Jones 2.5" lift bar, installing a grin front hub motor, and seeing how that works.

I've also thought of converting the bike to a mid-drive, but my BB shell is ThreadFit 47, so I'd need the FSA EL-316 adapter, and CYC X1 Stealth.

Either way, I'd hate to dump $3-4k more into this bike to find out the geometry really doesn't work for me. AND, I don't really like how the rear brake caliper bolts are obstructed by the frame. Makes it a pain to adjust the calipers.

I could donate this whole bike to a local bike co-op and get the tax write-off.

I built this bike, and my last bike during the pandemic. When I didn't trust anyone, so I tried to figure out my geometry with pencils and measuring tape in my apartment. I have no qualms building a bike from the frame up, but at this point, maybe I should just go with the Rad Rover and call it a day?

There are some deals I've found on frames, but again, I'm not sure how to make a comfortable upright build, and don't want to waste thousands of dollars more to find out my next project doesn't meet my needs either.

I want a bike I can grow with as my fitness improves. I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm open to suggestions. Thanks!

One last thing, I don't care about class 1, class 3, etc. Torque sensor, throttle, whatever, just to have a reliable system for me to get back outside and enjoying nature.

 

[99t4]

Goal - To be able to do 30+ mile rides...

For 30+ mile rides it gets more important that the bike fits you (and your style) well. BTW, how much is 30+ miles? 35? 40? 50 miles?

I can ride it, but standover is a little high, and I'm not as upright as I'd like to be, even with maxed out spacers and Jones Bar (non-2.5 version).

Am I correct in perceiving that the bike does not fit you (or your style)?

Otherwise, your idea for a front hubmotor kit is a good one, in that if after installing it to your current bike, the fit/style does not work out, you should be able to easily remove it, restore it to stock, and install it on another (better fitting) candidate.

Clipless pedals are not so essential on an ebike. I ditched mine and revel in the freedom feeling of walking around in comfort and quiet after dismounting the bike. Personally I prefer skate shoes or deck shoes. Platform pedals FTW.

 

[neptronix]

Hey.. you don't need an expensive bike for an ebike at all..
I've built everything on used ebay frames.. and <$500 bikesdirect bikes.
Those cheap bikesdirect bikes mainly use old bike standards.. therefore all kinds of electric kit hooks up very easily.

When you have an electric bike.. the extra 3lbs on a frame really doesn't matter. Buy one based on a good fit and go from there.

If you only need a small improvement in standover height.. it can be reduced by:
- moving the seat backwards and down
- really, really thin pedals
- smaller rear tire

Two things can raise up the handlebars:
- a stem adapter like this:

- A handlebar with a raise on it:

 

[A-DamW]

First off, welcome to Endless Sphere!
2nd, your avatar/profile pic looks like Tarn lake at Broken top mnt, three sisters wilderness, I have spent some time there, beautiful area.

Ok, bikes, out of the many dozens I have ridden, I found 2 that fit me like a glove, a Redline Monocog single speed, and a Giant semi-hybrid on my Xtracycle cargo bike.

I have other bikes that are close to good fitment, but nothing close to the above, I can spend 2+ hours in the saddle and still feel comfortable.

If I was to look for another main ride, I would use one of those bikes as a template for geometry.

Do you live somewhere you can test ride a lot of different bikes? for me I can tell the minute I ride a bike how well it fits.

Go ride a bunch of different bikes, find one that fits you like a glove, measure/copy the geometry, build your bike around that.

 

[oneboot]

For 30+ mile rides it gets more important that the bike fits you (and your style) well. BTW, how much is 30+ miles? 35? 40? 50 miles?

It would be 44 miles round trip with 2k feet or so of elevation. Mainly the gain would be in the front-half, so I could coast downhill at the end. The trail is an out and back, so I could turn around at any time, but would like to do the whole thing.

Am I correct in perceiving that the bike does not fit you (or your style)?

Right now it doesn't, but something tells me getting the handlebars higher might help.

Otherwise, your idea for a front hubmotor kit is a good one, in that if after installing it to your current bike, the fit/style does not work out, you should be able to easily remove it, restore it to stock, and install it on another (better fitting) candidate.

Clipless pedals are not so essential on an ebike. I ditched mine and revel in the freedom feeling of walking around in comfort and quiet after dismounting the bike. Personally I prefer skate shoes or deck shoes. Platform pedals FTW.

I'm realizing now, that when I first started bike commuting, I had an $800 Fuji Mountain bike, platform pedals, and I was mashing around everywhere (except for big hills no problem). I took that bike to a fitter as well, and the only component we changed was the handlebars (lifted moustache bars from Origin-8). Really helped with numb hands.

Then, I just had to go get into through-axles and all the latest jazz, and lost site in the process. I'll see if I can get my current bike closer to that geometry. Thanks!

 

[oneboot]

Hey.. you don't need an expensive bike for an ebike at all..
I've built everything on used ebay frames.. and <$500 bikesdirect bikes.
Those cheap bikesdirect bikes mainly use old bike standards.. therefore all kinds of electric kit hooks up very easily.

When you have an electric bike.. the extra 3lbs on a frame really doesn't matter. Buy one based on a good fit and go from there.

Thank you! I mainly wanted thru-axles for rigidity, being a bigger dude, but that may be a marketing fallacy I need to give up, lol.

If you only need a small improvement in standover height.. it can be reduced by:
- moving the seat backwards and down
- really, really thin pedals
- smaller rear tire

The bike feels good as is when riding, just the crown jewels can make it awkward at stop lights. Switching from clipless to boots or shoes, I'll probably have more room to fix that issue anyway.

Two things can raise up the handlebars:
- a stem adapter like this:
View attachment 366206
- A handlebar with a raise on it:
View attachment 366207

Yep, I currently have the Jones Loop H-Bars with no lift. They have a 2.5" lift model that I may try out. Thank you for encouraging me to work with what I have

 

[oneboot]

First off, welcome to Endless Sphere!
2nd, your avatar/profile pic looks like Tarn lake at Broken top mnt, three sisters wilderness, I have spent some time there, beautiful area.

Thank you! And yes, it is the Tarn up at Broken Top that photo is from 2017. Minutes after getting back to my car, wildfire smoke started blowing through. Definitely not in hiking shape anymore, but would love to get back into some form of cycling.

Ok, bikes, out of the many dozens I have ridden, I found 2 that fit me like a glove, a Redline Monocog single speed, and a Giant semi-hybrid on my Xtracycle cargo bike.

I have other bikes that are close to good fitment, but nothing close to the above, I can spend 2+ hours in the saddle and still feel comfortable.

If I was to look for another main ride, I would use one of those bikes as a template for geometry.

Do you live somewhere you can test ride a lot of different bikes? for me I can tell the minute I ride a bike how well it fits.

Go ride a bunch of different bikes, find one that fits you like a glove, measure/copy the geometry, build your bike around that.

I need to go back to my roots. In 2018, I lost my car, my mind, and a few other things. I was relegated to bike commuting. I picked up an $800 Fuji Nevada 1.5 Size Large. I felt like a badass with that thing, except for handlebar position and numb hands less than 5 minutes in.

Took it to a bike fitter, installed a setback seatpost, and origin-8 moustache bars. I was unstoppable! Gave that bike away, as I was about to move, and had set up a new bike that didn't fit well because I wanted the rigidity of thru-axles, lol. I'm seriously thinking if I lift the handlebars a bit more on my current bike, and go front hub-motor, maybe I'll be alright.

 

[oneboot]

I actually just did some geometry comparisons. My new Titanium frame is pretty similar to my old Fuji. Bottom bracket is 10mm higher, but everything else is pretty similar. And the Fuji geometry is with a 100mm suspension fork. I liked riding that bike locked out often.

With the new bike, it has a suspension-corrected carbon fork, so shorter axle-crown means the frame is rotated a bit in space. Higher handlebars would help I imagine!

	Pinhoti (New)	Fuji nevada (Old)
Top Tube (in)	24.7
Top Tube (mm)	627.4	625.0
Head Tube Angle	70.5	70.0
Seat Tube Angle	72.5	73.0
Seat Tube Length (in)	19.0
Seat Tube Length (mm)	482.6	483.0
Chainstay Length (in)	17.25
Chainstay Length (mm)	438.2	435.0
BB Drop (in)	2.0
BB Drop (mm)	50.8	60.0
Wheelbase (in)	44.0
Wheelbase (mm)	1117.6	1120.3
Front Center (in)	26.9
Front Center (mm)	683.3
Fork Rake (in)	2.0
Fork Rake (mm)	50.8	46.0
Standover Height (in)	32.8
Standover Height (mm)	833.1	727.0
Head Tube Length (in)	5.0
Head Tube Length (mm)	127.0	115.0
Stack (in)	25.4
Stack (mm)	645.2	639.0
Reach (in)	16.4
Reach (mm)	416.6	429.7
	60mm stem	90mm stem

 

[E-HP]

Hello all, first, I'll list my requirements / budget:
Rider Height - 5'8"
Rider Inseam - 28-29"
Rider weight - 300+ lbs.
Preferred Frame Type - Mountain with Jones Loop Bars
Experience with riding any bike - Used to bike commute 5 days a week in 2019-2020. Now I make more money, and have a car, so I only stare at the worthless bike in my garage.
Goal - To be able to do 30+ mile rides with my friend along the Banks-Vernonia trail in Oregon come spring / summer.

Trail summary google states a 5% average grade with 12.4% max, so most setups, mid, front, rear, are possible.
Front hub isn’t advised on a suspension fork.
Maintenance is higher for mid drives, followed by geared drives, with direct drives being maintenance free.
Were you 300lbs when you were commuting regularly?
A 52v, 17Ah to 20Ah battery should provides good margin for a 30 mile ride.
Once you decide on a bike that fits you, it shouldn’t be too hard to select decent components. You could post on the Bike Mechanical and Structural subforum for non ebike advice which may help, if your fitters are doing such a crappy job.
You might be the perfect candidate for a good factory ebike. Have you test ridden a few? Shops in your area should be familiar with the trail.

 

[2old]

Personally, I wouldn't use a front motor on a carbon fork (even with a thru axle), but Grin (ebikesca) probably has a solution. Ask first. Probably you would be better off with a used steel bike from the 90's that fits you well (at 5'10", a "M" may be more comfortable).

 

[oneboot]

Trail summary google states a 5% average grade with 12.4% max, so most setups, mid, front, rear, are possible.
Front hub isn’t advised on a suspension fork.
Maintenance is higher for mid drives, followed by geared drives, with direct drives being maintenance free.
Were you 300lbs when you were commuting regularly?

Yes, I was around the same weight. Albeit a lot more toned. Lost the enthusiasm once I started getting knee pain (175mm cranks on 28-29" inseam). Then, I spent all my free time building a new bike, then moved to California, and commuting was brutal. Sold the bike at a loss, and moved back to Oregon 2 years later.

A 52v, 17Ah to 20Ah battery should provides good margin for a 30 mile ride.
Once you decide on a bike that fits you, it shouldn’t be too hard to select decent components. You could post on the Bike Mechanical and Structural subforum for non ebike advice which may help, if your fitters are doing such a crappy job.
You might be the perfect candidate for a good factory ebike. Have you test ridden a few? Shops in your area should be familiar with the trail.

I have not ridden any factory ebikes. Need to find a shop I trust. I'm in Portland, and even though it's bike mecca, I feel snubbed a lot in stores, or just "decide buy and get out!" Probably my own stuff to get through.

I also don't like selling stuff on eBay or Craigslist. Would rather donate, then haggle with people looking for a 90% discount.



This is my current setup. Titanium frame, carbon fork, and carbon wheels. Shimano 4-pot brakes. Tried an 8 mile commute one way when I lived closer, and just felt too bent over. Hence my thought that maybe getting the lifted Jones bars would help.

The bottom bracket is T47, but I know FSA makes a T47-BSA adapter. Maybe the Cyc mid-drive would be a good fit?

The bike fitter said my sitting position and leg extension was good, and that I would get used to leaning over, so I'm thinking lifted bars might help the situation. And my reason for going carbon and Ti was not for ultralight reasons. It was for responsiveness, vibration dampening, and a bit of bling factor

I'd rather try to make this bike work than donate it and start over again. But I will if the hive mind think it's best. Thanks for all your responses!

 

[Chalo]

Rider weight - 300+ lbs.

Current bike is non-electric. Titanium litespeed Pinhoti frame, size large. Carbon mountain boost fork. Chris King carbon wheels,

I don't think you really understand your requirements. Lightweight expensive stuff isn't stiff, isn't strong, and isn't rated for you. A 16 lbs road racing bike for a professional rider becomes a 32 lbs bike for you, at the same relatively slim safety margin.

A Surly Bridge Club would be a more suitable starting point and would have normal mechanical interfaces for non-stupid, indefinitely supportable parts.

 

[oneboot]

I don't think you really understand your requirements. Lightweight expensive stuff isn't stiff, isn't strong, and isn't rated for you. A 16 lbs road racing bike for a professional rider becomes a 32 lbs bike for you, at the same relatively slim safety margin.

A Surly Bridge Club would be a more suitable starting point and would have normal mechanical interfaces for non-stupid, indefinitely supportable parts.

I appreciate your bluntness. Thank you.

 

[neptronix]

Thank you! I mainly wanted thru-axles for rigidity, being a bigger dude, but that may be a marketing fallacy I need to give up, lol.

If you were to use a regular hub motor intended for a QR dropout on the rear wheel ( best place to put it ), you'd have a stronger axle than any bike standard

 

[Chalo]

I appreciate your bluntness. Thank you.

I've been a daily transportation rider, no electric assist, at body weights over 400 lbs. I've broken stuff and myself too.

Even back down in the pale of normal design weights at about 250#, I look for frames and components that are heavy, made of known strong and reliable materials, and of proven design (preferably generations old). I still end up with bikes that are quite lightweight for the job they have to do.

For reliability, in your situation I'd be looking at a big direct drive hub rather than mid drive. There's less to go wrong, more inherent structural integrity in the motor itself (though not so much in the built wheel), and you can use whatever bike parts are going to work best for your demands.

The only mid drive I think of as generally robust and reliable enough to resist disappointing you would be Bafang BBSHD (for 1000W+) or BBS02 (for 500-750W). I don't love that they have square taper spindles, but mine didn't have any structural problems when I weighed 350-400 lbs and rode it for all my transportation. All its problems were related to overloading bicycle drive parts well past their intended capacities (plus failure of the wheel speed sensor).

 

[oneboot]

I've been a daily transportation rider, no electric assist, at body weights over 400 lbs. I've broken stuff and myself too.

Yeah, I broke a couple store-bought wheels, made the frame flex while braking, causing brakes to wail and wobble.

The first bike I built was a soma steel frame. Built the wheels myself as well. It was too big for me, and uncomfortable, but it was burly.

I'd like a frame without sliding dropouts (or whatever salsa / surly creates with those sliding triangles). BSA BB, and thru-axle.

Even back down in the pale of normal design weights at about 250#, I look for frames and components that are heavy, made of known strong and reliable materials, and of proven design (preferably generations old). I still end up with bikes that are quite lightweight for the job they have to do.

For reliability, in your situation I'd be looking at a big direct drive hub rather than mid drive. There's less to go wrong, more inherent structural integrity in the motor itself (though not so much in the built wheel), and you can use whatever bike parts are going to work best for your demands.

I was looking at Grin's new all-axle XDR rear hub. They're wheel build options leave much to be desired in terms of rim availability. A couple moves ago, I had to get rid of all my wheelbuilding tools, so I'd need to get new ones. Their hub is 32h, so maybe going with a tubeless DT Swiss Downhill rim would be suitable?

The only mid drive I think of as generally robust and reliable enough to resist disappointing you would be Bafang BBSHD (for 1000W+) or BBS02 (for 500-750W). I don't love that they have square taper spindles, but mine didn't have any structural problems when I weighed 350-400 lbs and rode it for all my transportation. All its problems were related to overloading bicycle drive parts well past their intended capacities (plus failure of the wheel speed sensor).

I found this frame from SOMA that is steel and doesn't have adjustable dropouts. Not boost spacing, but I shouldn't be worried about it.

Soma Frame Jawbone A-Type Sage Green

www.somafabshop.com

There is also this titanium frame on closeout, in my size, with a BSA bottom bracket. Still titanium, but may fit the bill:

Live Wire Frame - Closeout

Searching for a trail bike that's beyond nimble in hard accelerations and rips up mountain climbs? Don't settle for a carbon compromise — Live Wire shreds the switchbacks with no limits — engineered to be our lightest-toughest 3AL/2.5V titanium hardtail frame — it's darn fast and crazy fun —...

lynskeyperformance.com

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Chalo]

Surly Bridge Club has regular vertical dropout frame ends, which is one reason I recommended it. Some of their other options like "Gnot Boost" and the weird L-shaped slot dropout on the Straggler are très hokey.

Oh, and for getting sat up nice and high, BMX bars are your friend. Plenty strong and with up to 11 inches of rise, plenty tall. Also they offer an excellent place to mount a bag, controller, or battery. You'll need a BMX stem to go with that, unless you use a 31.8mm BMX bar.

 

[Chalo]

Surly Bridge Club has regular vertical dropout frame ends,

Also it looks and works super great with 26 x 3" tires.

 

[classicalgas]

I actually just did some geometry comparisons. My new Titanium frame is pretty similar to my old Fuji. Bottom bracket is 10mm higher, but everything else is pretty similar. And the Fuji geometry is with a 100mm suspension fork. I liked riding that bike locked out often.

With the new bike, it has a suspension-corrected carbon fork, so shorter axle-crown means the frame is rotated a bit in space. Higher handlebars would help I imagine!

	Pinhoti (New)	Fuji nevada (Old)
Top Tube (in)	24.7
Top Tube (mm)	627.4	625.0
Head Tube Angle	70.5	70.0
Seat Tube Angle	72.5	73.0
Seat Tube Length (in)	19.0
Seat Tube Length (mm)	482.6	483.0
Chainstay Length (in)	17.25
Chainstay Length (mm)	438.2	435.0
BB Drop (in)	2.0
BB Drop (mm)	50.8	60.0
Wheelbase (in)	44.0
Wheelbase (mm)	1117.6	1120.3
Front Center (in)	26.9
Front Center (mm)	683.3
Fork Rake (in)	2.0
Fork Rake (mm)	50.8	46.0
Standover Height (in)	32.8
Standover Height (mm)	833.1	727.0
Head Tube Length (in)	5.0
Head Tube Length (mm)	127.0	115.0
Stack (in)	25.4
Stack (mm)	645.2	639.0
Reach (in)	16.4
Reach (mm)	416.6	429.7
	60mm stem	90mm stem

I think you mentioned that you had a bike you liked with a "mustache" bar...I find that bar sweep back angle does more for hand/wrist comfort than rise or reach does.

 

[MxusMick]

If you run out of voltage during your tour, your pedals will feel like riding in sand, along with the extra weight of the motor and battery. Big hills will diminish battery voltage like a V8 hotrod, so experimental testing will be necessary for any major trailing. I have heard a removal of a phase wire connection can remove the magnet cog but otherwise its a gym workout.