Improving motorist/cyclist relations
- Thread starter John in CR
- Start date
John in CR
100 TW
I'd survive and adapt anywhere and avoid chaos doing so.
Good. Here's some foundation for you. My client list takes me from Laramie to Pueblo, from Vail to Fort Morgan. At my house, 200 yards out the back door is 2,000,000 cars a day 24/7/365, at 75mph. Out the front door is a bicycle friendly district 24/7/365, at 8 mph. Quite a disparity, these extremes.
I wish you luck where you live. I hope you can wish me the same where I live.
Take Endless Sphere's list of "rage triggers", and decide, as I have, which ones could be DIY.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47735&p=704517#p704517
What's left, may run the gauntlet and become legit enough to be legislated. I guarantee it's going to be a short list that gets through.
I live in the land of Columbine mass murders and the Aurora Theatre Tragedy, as well as good old 9-11. We know about rage here.
Finally, I'm just an introvert, a nerd to the nth. Maybe typing on the WWW would make you think different... I ride a pedal bike here. There hasn't been a e-motorcycle built, including yours, to take care of my needs here on the Front Range. The ante is just too high, out the back door.
I wish you luck where you live. I hope you can wish me the same where I live.
Take Endless Sphere's list of "rage triggers", and decide, as I have, which ones could be DIY.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47735&p=704517#p704517
What's left, may run the gauntlet and become legit enough to be legislated. I guarantee it's going to be a short list that gets through.
I live in the land of Columbine mass murders and the Aurora Theatre Tragedy, as well as good old 9-11. We know about rage here.
Finally, I'm just an introvert, a nerd to the nth. Maybe typing on the WWW would make you think different... I ride a pedal bike here. There hasn't been a e-motorcycle built, including yours, to take care of my needs here on the Front Range. The ante is just too high, out the back door.
Kingfish
100 MW
Now now gents - and I use that term loosely – let’s play nice. :wink:
Reminds me of last night over pints; I called out to my pals that they were "gentlemen" and I was corrected: "We are not gen-tle; we are RAW. We are rawmen". I looked at them in disbelief and said “Ramen?”
I haven’t heard the expression “Kmart blue light special” in years! 2 points to John. :lol:
Gestalt, that is a great idea! Douchetube/Hall of Shame…
Many years ago the comedian Gallagher proposed a similar solution before the advent of portable cameras: Arm every driver with a pistol that shoots red sticky flags. Let’s say yer going down the road and some jerk cuts you off (or whatever); you have a pistol that shoots out these red flags with a sticky tip – like a suction cup, that attaches to the car. Life goes on. Eventually – with enough flags, he’s pulled over for being an asshole.
Douchetube. I like it! Maybe have an international court of law to that’s able banish their Kmart blue light special license… force them to shop a Wal-Mart… clean public restrooms… plant trees…
I'm just sayin'... KF
Reminds me of last night over pints; I called out to my pals that they were "gentlemen" and I was corrected: "We are not gen-tle; we are RAW. We are rawmen". I looked at them in disbelief and said “Ramen?”
I haven’t heard the expression “Kmart blue light special” in years! 2 points to John. :lol:
Gestalt, that is a great idea! Douchetube/Hall of Shame…
Many years ago the comedian Gallagher proposed a similar solution before the advent of portable cameras: Arm every driver with a pistol that shoots red sticky flags. Let’s say yer going down the road and some jerk cuts you off (or whatever); you have a pistol that shoots out these red flags with a sticky tip – like a suction cup, that attaches to the car. Life goes on. Eventually – with enough flags, he’s pulled over for being an asshole.
Douchetube. I like it! Maybe have an international court of law to that’s able banish their Kmart blue light special license… force them to shop a Wal-Mart… clean public restrooms… plant trees…
I'm just sayin'... KF
docnjoj
1 GW
Sorry folks! IMHO the only way to protect the majority of cyclists, electric or otherwise, is to physically separate them from cars. A few methods have been shown, but due to the cost of bikeways this won't happen, at least not in this country.
The best relationship with cars to bikes is not to have one at all! Many European countries do attempt this but not most of them. I am happiest when on a MUT or our isolated bike trails, but we certainly don't have enough of them here. I can ride to town center about 2 miles away, but the bike lanes there are painted on regular roads, a cheap joke by our city government. They might let my family collect in a lawsuit if I am squashed, but they absolutely do not protect the biker. The only true answers are to spend the money on paving and separation, and while this is Nirvanna, it is not gunna happen anytime soon!
I really admire folks like GCinDC who regularly mix it up with traffic in a big city, but danger lurks at every block in his situation.
otherDoc
The best relationship with cars to bikes is not to have one at all! Many European countries do attempt this but not most of them. I am happiest when on a MUT or our isolated bike trails, but we certainly don't have enough of them here. I can ride to town center about 2 miles away, but the bike lanes there are painted on regular roads, a cheap joke by our city government. They might let my family collect in a lawsuit if I am squashed, but they absolutely do not protect the biker. The only true answers are to spend the money on paving and separation, and while this is Nirvanna, it is not gunna happen anytime soon!
I really admire folks like GCinDC who regularly mix it up with traffic in a big city, but danger lurks at every block in his situation.
otherDoc
My sincere apologies. Rage makes me outraged.
John, I like what you do. Believe it.
I'm not ungentle, I may be pointing like a bird dog, but that's temporary.
I'd welcome you gladly if you ever came here to the Ass-pit of the Universe, and I'd cook you whatever you desired, etc.
I'm done. Peace once again.
John, I like what you do. Believe it.
I'm not ungentle, I may be pointing like a bird dog, but that's temporary.
I'd welcome you gladly if you ever came here to the Ass-pit of the Universe, and I'd cook you whatever you desired, etc.
I'm done. Peace once again.
docnjoj
1 GW
And Peace it shall be, I hope. Unfortunately, most "accidents" are just that, cause by innatentiveness, stupidity or just plain carelessness. You guys (and girls) on the fast bikes with goood reflexes and handling expertise can avoid a lot of these disasters, but when your time is up..............! There may be some rager cagers out there but the majority of bike/car contact occurs through stupidity. Being alert can prevent most, but not all. Certainly being an expert rider helps, but not always. Just reduces the odds of destruction.
My soapbox today is the same as the other thread: Wherever possible, separate the bikes from the cars.
otherDoc
My soapbox today is the same as the other thread: Wherever possible, separate the bikes from the cars.
otherDoc
Unfortunately this is impossible in most cities. To have totally separated roadways would also mean totally separated destinations...and that's not how it works, if you're using the bike for your main or only transportation, and not primarily for exercise or entertainment.docnjoj said:
There's no way to make a completely independent non-car-road-crossing bike roadway in a city like Phoenix, for instance (probably not in any city). Even if it were elevated directly over the regular roadway, it would not be possible to have a rampway down from it to every place a regular roadway has a driveway or other access point to the rest of the city. It would have to be an "expressway" kind of thing that only has on/off ramps at intervals, and that would be too restrictive.
For example--we have a canal system that includes some good bike paths, and you can only get on and off of it every mile or more.
So at best you must go half a mile out of your way if your destination happens to be halfway between exits---and those exits are, naturally, wherever the *major* fast-speed (40-45mph+) car roads cross the canal. Other separated bike trails are similar.
The other issue is if there were a separate bike roadway, it wouldnt' be just that. It'd be too expensive to use for just that. So they'd make it an MUT, and be useless for quick travel anywhere, or with wide vehicles like cargo bikes ro bikes with trailers or trikes, because it'd be used by pedestrians, large groups of mothers with strollers all walking side-by-side blocking the entire passage, dog-walkers, etc. After dark, perhaps as late as 10pm, it'd either be closed (like many of the off-road bike trails already are), and inhabited by the homeless (some of whom would never leave), blockign the path. Again, it'd be useless for quick travel. No one but those using it would ever police it.
Also, because it'd be an MUT, it wouldnt' be usable at anything mroe than maybe 10-15MPH, so even though technically I could go 20 on an ebike, I would never be able to actually ride it that fast because of the other people on it.
Almost certainly, regardless of any other considerations, it would be built only wide enough for two regular bicycles to pass side by side, and not wide enough to do safely, either--becuase it'd be too expensive to do any other way.
What really needs to happen is co-education of drivers and cyclists, from a young age, to teach them how to share the road with *all* traffic that is on it.
Ykick
1 GW
What really needs to happen is to REQUIRE motorcycle/scooter license endorsement for a reasonable period of time before granting licenses to operate larger, more dangerous stuff. Doing this would kill 2 birds with one stone.
1st - it would eliminate those too stupid to ride a moto/scooter. If they can't figure that out, they'ain't no way they should be handed a license to operate something even more dangerous. Ride the bus...
2nd - it would instill a sense of empathy and understanding by walking (riding) in our shoes.
I also believe riding helps someone become a much better car/truck operator and vast improvement(s) would be seen all across the board if moto/scooter endorsements were to become prerequisite for car/truck operator licensing.
But yeah, in the meantime, separation is nice (I enjoy about 2 miles of bridge MUT) and it's a simple joy not to be constantly concerned about cars.
1st - it would eliminate those too stupid to ride a moto/scooter. If they can't figure that out, they'ain't no way they should be handed a license to operate something even more dangerous. Ride the bus...
2nd - it would instill a sense of empathy and understanding by walking (riding) in our shoes.
I also believe riding helps someone become a much better car/truck operator and vast improvement(s) would be seen all across the board if moto/scooter endorsements were to become prerequisite for car/truck operator licensing.
But yeah, in the meantime, separation is nice (I enjoy about 2 miles of bridge MUT) and it's a simple joy not to be constantly concerned about cars.
Kingfish
100 MW
Separation by Function
There are a few isolated bike paths here in the Greater Seattle Area. Many have very smart designs with dedicated underpasses beneath busy thoroughfares, or are paved-over decommissioned R/R routes. And that’s fine for pedestrian use, but not good for mixed speeds above 15 mph. I gave up on those options about two years ago: ladies pushing prams and children have priority over my selfish needs of convenience; I’ll take my fate onto the roadway. But to qualify for that safely – perhaps we need to look at the problem from the other end of the telescope:
Sources of Travel
Trains, boats, planes, parachutes, space capsules, flights of fancy, and madness aside…
Had plenty of power, very good leftover charge, average speed was 27 over urban roads, but topped out at 38.5, and I was harassed for not going fast enough in a 35-mph zone when I was actually doing 37.
Unless we change our laws, unless we create a new subclass of powered cycling, these problems will continue. The short term choices are obvious.
Upgrading, KF
There are a few isolated bike paths here in the Greater Seattle Area. Many have very smart designs with dedicated underpasses beneath busy thoroughfares, or are paved-over decommissioned R/R routes. And that’s fine for pedestrian use, but not good for mixed speeds above 15 mph. I gave up on those options about two years ago: ladies pushing prams and children have priority over my selfish needs of convenience; I’ll take my fate onto the roadway. But to qualify for that safely – perhaps we need to look at the problem from the other end of the telescope:
Sources of Travel
Trains, boats, planes, parachutes, space capsules, flights of fancy, and madness aside…
- Freeway: With exceptions where published and posted, typically freeways require motorcycles to have at least 150cc displacement and be able to maintain 65 mph on the flat and level. The exceptions are (from my direct experiences) instances such as I-90 in the State of Washington and US-101 in California and Oregon that have big wide margins and proper posting to allow bicycles (but not pedestrians) in designated segments. For bicyclists (including ebikes) the restrictions are obvious and implied, and allowances are created when there is no other reasonable alternative between two distant points. It is completely possible to follow I-90 from Seattle eastward to the Dakotas; not sure how fun it would be, though it’s possible. The good news is that no modifications are required other than the smart headlight & reflector.
- Highways: Unless specifically prohibited, bikes are allowed on highways in the margins. There are some places where you will test fate in doing so, for instance heading eastward towards Portland those last 10 miles on US-30; there the margin seems like a couple of feet wide between you, the semi truck, and the rock wall. Most have a maximum speed in the 55-65 mph range. Wisdom dictates which is the better route.
- Arterials, Rural, and Urban roadways: Punctuated by traffic signals, these busy streets have an average speed of 35 to 50 mph. Some have margins, many do not. We take our lives in hand mixing with this crowd. I’m going to come back to this in a moment to make my point…
- Streets: Generally, these can include Feeder roads, side streets, subdivisions, etc. They are controlled by stop signs, roundabouts, and signals. The speed limit is often unmarked except around school zones, and is typically 35 mph maximum. Children play in these streets. No special modification is required of bicycles.
- Bike Paths: Many are physically separated from the roadway for safety. A good example is between Truckee, Tahoe City, and part-way to South Lake Tahoe in California. Most however are along-side the road and separated by a fog line. My feeling is that bike paths should be for bikes, limited to a maximum speed of 25 mph because that is actually quite difficult for a human-powered cycle to achieve. The Sammamish Slough and Burke Gilman Trail in and around Seattle recently posted 15 mph speed limits – mainly cos of kids.
- Be a bike, act like a bike, don’t travel faster than 25 mph, stay out of the roadway where possible. No special modifications to the bike are required other than for common safety.
- Be a motorcycle having equivalent-displacement greater than 150cc, act like a motorcycle, and stay out of the bike lane.
- All other ebikes not conforming should become Mopeds or Motor-driven Cycles. This is the segment that causes most grief, and I am part of the problem. The designation should include the minimum speed of 35 mph with no maximum because we’re undersized for Freeway. It means no-half measures, no kludge bikes, you must conform to one standard or another, or get off the road until it’s figured out. Mopeds and Motor-driven Cycles must be DOT-legal with headlights, taillights, indicators, reflectors, helmets, and mirrors. Motor-driven Cycles are licensed, insured, and safety-inspected. Mopeds in Washington State as of July 2011 are no longer required to be licensed and insured. Mopeds are pedaled. Mopeds in Washington State that employ an ICE cannot by law be allowed on bike paths, however electric motors do not have that restriction.
Had plenty of power, very good leftover charge, average speed was 27 over urban roads, but topped out at 38.5, and I was harassed for not going fast enough in a 35-mph zone when I was actually doing 37.Unless we change our laws, unless we create a new subclass of powered cycling, these problems will continue. The short term choices are obvious.
Upgrading, KF
docnjoj
1 GW
amberwolf said:Unfortunately this is impossible in most cities. To have totally separated roadways would also mean totally separated destinations...and that's not how it works, if you're using the bike for your main or only transportation, and not primarily for exercise or entertainment.docnjoj said:
There's no way to make a completely independent non-car-road-crossing bike roadway in a city like Phoenix, for instance (probably not in any city). Even if it were elevated directly over the regular roadway, it would not be possible to have a rampway down from it to every place a regular roadway has a driveway or other access point to the rest of the city. It would have to be an "expressway" kind of thing that only has on/off ramps at intervals, and that would be too restrictive.
For example--we have a canal system that includes some good bike paths, and you can only get on and off of it every mile or more.
Other separated bike trails are similar.
The other issue is if there were a separate bike roadway, it wouldnt' be just that. It'd be too expensive to use for just that. So they'd make it an MUT, and be useless for quick travel anywhere, or with wide vehicles like cargo bikes ro bikes with trailers or trikes, because it'd be used by pedestrians, large groups of mothers with strollers all walking side-by-side blocking the entire passage, dog-walkers, etc. After dark, perhaps as late as 10pm, it'd either be closed (like many of the off-road bike trails already are), and inhabited by the homeless (some of whom would never leave), blockign the path. Again, it'd be useless for quick travel. No one but those using it would ever police it.
Also, because it'd be an MUT, it wouldnt' be usable at anything mroe than maybe 10-15MPH, so even though technically I could go 20 on an ebike, I would never be able to actually ride it that fast because of the other people on it.
Almost certainly, regardless of any other considerations, it would be built only wide enough for two regular bicycles to pass side by side, and not wide enough to do safely, either--becuase it'd be too expensive to do any other way.
What really needs to happen is co-education of drivers and cyclists, from a young age, to teach them how to share the road with *all* traffic that is on it.
hjns just posted some really elegant solutions to this problem. All from Europe, of course! It is in the other thread on this similar topic but I can't find it right now.
otherDoc
MattyCiii
100 kW
Amen, Brother!Ykick said:
ddk
100 kW
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2011
- Messages
- 1,903
City planners can add bike paths if prodded long and hard enough (given cattle prods)
-before I moved to my personal paradise, I lived and worked in Lincoln, NE.
If you want to visit a community that seriously takes bicycle commuting seriously by separating bike/foot traffic from heavy traffic, go there.
I lived a couple of blocks off the Antelope bike path that branches off into any section of the city with minimal interaction between cars/trucks.
The bike paths are mainly paved and wide enough for cargo bikes/trikes going both directions.
-before I moved to my personal paradise, I lived and worked in Lincoln, NE.
If you want to visit a community that seriously takes bicycle commuting seriously by separating bike/foot traffic from heavy traffic, go there.
I lived a couple of blocks off the Antelope bike path that branches off into any section of the city with minimal interaction between cars/trucks.
The bike paths are mainly paved and wide enough for cargo bikes/trikes going both directions.
