In need of Tutorial to re-spoke Hub motor?

[steveo]

I have to re-spoke my 5304 into a 20" rim...

i found this http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/spoking.htm

is that good enough spoke pattern ...strength wise?

Anyone Else know of any good tutorials to do this?

-steveo

 

[rkosiorek]

another tutorial is the classic Sheldon Brown one. he is supposed to be one of the best bike Gurus.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Brett White of solar bbq shows all of the spoke heads on one side. One of the common debates is whether this weakens the wheel and that it would be stronger if every second spoke went through the other side of the flange like a traditional bicycle has.

my personal preference is for crossed patterns and against radial patterns. i think that radial patterns are inefficient at transferring torque from the hub to the rim. and i like to alternate the spoke heads. This is the pattern also chosen by most commercial bikes as well.

rick

 

[fechter]

When lacing a large diameter hub motor into a small rim, the spokes may come into the rim at a pretty radical angle when using a crossed pattern. I'm always concerned that if there is a bend in the spoke right near the nipple, the repeated flexing will cause a failure. If there was a way to angle the holes in the rim to match the spoke, that would be ideal, but I don't know if you can do that.

A radial pattern will prevent the angle problem, but as torque is applied the spoke tension will increase tremendously due to the geometry. The larger the hub diameter, the less this will be a problem.

For long term reliability, I'm not sure which pattern is best. Certainly a radial pattern is a bit easier to lay out. I know a few guys have done radial wheels and they seem to hold up.

 

[Link]

If there was a way to angle the holes in the rim to match the spoke, that would be ideal, but I don't know if you can do that. .

I wonder if you can just get really fat spoke nipples and re-drill the hole at an angle.

Or, can you get spoke nipples that end in spheres? Might not be good for the tube unless you grind them flat, but could solve the problem.

 

[fechter]

I wonder if you can just get really fat spoke nipples and re-drill the hole at an angle.

Or, can you get spoke nipples that end in spheres? Might not be good for the tube unless you grind them flat, but could solve the problem.

The flange on the spoke nipple needs to rest on a surface that's at the corrrect angle. Just drilling at an angle wouldn't do this. I don't think it would be a good idea to remove any metal around the hole or try to bend the rim either.

A spherical seat would work. Even hemispherical, so the tops are flat. I've never seen spoke nipples like that, but it seems like a good solution.

 

[recumbent]

When lacing a large diameter hub motor into a small rim, the spokes may come into the rim at a pretty radical angle when using a crossed pattern. I'm always concerned that if there is a bend in the spoke right near the nipple, the repeated flexing will cause a failure. If there was a way to angle the holes in the rim to match the spoke, that would be ideal, but I don't know if you can do that.

My Hienzmann motor has this exact problem, which looks worse than it really is, but I've never broke a spoke after many years of use, however it's mounted on a 26" wheel. Not the best picture, only one i got.

 

[recumbent]

I realize the picture i posted shows only the hub area, you have to imagine the severe angle where it meets the rim, which by-the-way are all bent right where the spoke exits the nipple exactly where the thread ends. This combination looks weak but never gave me trouble for at least 6 years of use, some Kms/miles were rough trails also.

 

[Link]

A spherical seat would work. Even hemispherical, so the tops are flat. I've never seen spoke nipples like that, but it seems like a good solution.

Woo! I had a good idea!

...

Wait, that's not news 8)...

This combination looks weak but never gave me trouble for at least 6 years of use, some Kms/miles were rough trails also.

How rough? I live in the concrete jungle but I'm pretty abusive in certain situations. E.G., my favorite way of getting up a curb is to pop up the front wheel and let the back hop up the curb. Then again, that isn't as rough as vert BMX riding...

That sounds pretty awesome, now that I think about it. Probably not a good idea (especially since I don't really do that kind of crap), but awesome. Hey, when I get a lithium pack I'll take a bike to the local skate park and see what happens.

 

[Ypedal]

An X5 in a 20" rim, Radial is pretty much the only pattern that works.

The spoke heads have to be outside the spoke flange or you won't be able to get the spoke into the rim.

 

[calinb]

The flange on the spoke nipple needs to rest on a surface that's at the corrrect angle. Just drilling at an angle wouldn't do this. I don't think it would be a good idea to remove any metal around the hole or try to bend the rim either.

A spherical seat would work. Even hemispherical, so the tops are flat. I've never seen spoke nipples like that, but it seems like a good solution.

I dunno, fechter. I'm cutting and threading some 12 ga Sapim spokes right now for my 26" Salsa Gordo rim. The Sapim nipples don't have a square mating surface to the rim; they have a rounded corner and a conical taper--not quite a ball and socket affair, but the same idea, obviously. They appear to be designed to make good contact with the edge of the rim spoke hole while angling toward the hub holes. If the hole is too small, this feature is not realized because there is insufficient clearance between the nipple and the sides of the spoke hole in the rim to permit the nipple to rotate to an angle while remaining fully seated. In this case, dilling the hole at an angle, or drilling it a bit larger for more side clearance permits the nipple to settle to the "natural" angle of the spoke--or at least closer to that angle. I chose to drill slightly oversize.

BTW, it's tough to find rims without stainless steel eyelets (SSEs) these days. I ordered an Alex DM18 that was not supposed to have eyelets but it turns out SSEs are an option on the DM18 and they are pretty much building them all this way, according to my supplier. As long as I was going to have to drill out eyelets, I went with a Salsa Gordo rim. I scuffed up a 1.5" strip of 0.064" aluminum on a coarse belt sander and clamped it, scuffed side against the eyelet, on the hub side (non tube side) of the rim--clamps on each side of the eyelet. This keeps the eyelet from spinning during drilling. I drilled through the eyelet with a #9 bit, followed by a #8 bit with a high speed hand air drill. Drilling in two steps, undersized initially, makes for rounder holes. Kerosene or other cutting fluid should be used to lubricate the bit before each hole is enlarged.

Next I unclamped the Al strip, centered it on the next eyelet hole and reclamped it..., repeat, repeat, repeat....arghhh! I had to re-scuff the Al strip a couple of times and went through a total of two strips--using both sides of each of them.

36 holes later, my 12 ga Sapim nipples fit into the eyelets. As it turned out, a #8 did not remove the eyelet. It may have thinned the wall such that the eyelets will eventually separate from the eyelet "barrel." I dunno, but I'm going to lace it up with the modified eyelets in place. If the eyelets break, I'll un-lace the wheel, drill them out entirely, and start over.

The following night, I completed phase one of the spoke threading with my new Cyclo tool and Cyclus die head (threading "light" threads 10mm past the point of final length). Phase two (cutting and dressing the ends) and perhaps phase three (threading to final depth) might get done tonight. So far, these tools have worked like a dream and I could find no one who would thread 12 ga spokes with a Phil threader. I'm using a Dremel tool cutoff wheel to cut and dress the ends of the spokes. My first "test" spoke looks great but I'm now in "assembly line mode" to complete the rest of the set and a few extras.

-Cal

 

[calinb]

My Hienzmann motor has this exact problem, which looks worse than it really is, but I've never broke a spoke after many years of use, however it's mounted on a 26" wheel. Not the best picture, only one i got.

Nice clamp in that pic, recumbent!

Just as an FYI to the forum, the WDG- type of aircraft "Adel" clamps have wedges at the clamp "junction." (DG- clamps lack the wedge. ) WDGs hold really well if installed at the smallest possible size for the tube!

Page 119 of the Aircraft Spruce and Specialty catalog:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pdf/2008Individual/Cat08119.pdf

As I recall, the sizes tend to run large--by as much as two sizes in the larger clamps. This makes it's tough to obtain the optimum size without ordering at least a small range of sizes.

I've used a bunch of aircraft hardware, Kevlar aramid, carbon fiber, and such from Spruce in my E-bike project.

-Cal

 

[fechter]

Good to know. I'm going to be doing a wheel soon and I'm trying to make up my mind which way to go. The conical nipples would be fairly easy to angle in with the right tools. The spoke pattern on that Hienzmann looks radical. The spokes are nearly tangent to the hub.

Do you know the standard diameter and pitch of spoke threads?

 

[calinb]

Do you know the standard diameter and pitch of spoke threads?

I just now measured the pitch at 50 threads/inch. I don't know the depth--I guess I could attempt to measure it. The correct depth seems to be near the final, fully tight, adjustment setting of the die head--when the adjuster nut is nearly flush with the end of the die threads on the collet. (This is pretty much my tool):
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SPOKROLL.JPG
The die is near the "fully loose" position in the above photo.

Tightening the adjuster nut to the opposite end of the threads, for a final setting, matches the threads cut at the Sapim factory--at least on my Sapim "12 ga" threads, which are nearly the same diameter and the spokes that shipped with my Crystalyte wheel. I've been rolling my threads in three stages. Two stages would be possible, except it's difficult to "take a big bite" on the 2nd stage right ofter cutting the spoke and get the die to follow the light threads smoothly and get started. I've heard the die wears quickly if you try to force it onto the end of the spoke so I do three threading steps:

1. Thread lightly to the final 165mm "threaded section width" point, or close to it.
2. Cut/dress the spoke to final length.
3. Tighten the die head only slightly so it may easily get past the freshly cut spoke end and follow the light threads over the full and final threaded region of the spoke.
4. Tighten the die head to the final setting and thread a 3rd time along the entire threaded section of the spoke (~12mm or so from the end of spoke).

The above technique puts a few more "threading miles" on the die when cutting a 184mm down to 165, but it has the benefit of always having threads on the tip of the spoke to guide the die onto the spoke for each threading step. This would not be the case, if I'd cut the spokes to the final 165mm length before doing any threading. All in all, I believe the above technique results in the lowest die wear, despite the extra "threading miles."

After rolling the threads, I measure the thread diameter at nearly 0.114" vs. 0.102" for the non-threaded section of the spoke.

I bought 80 black 12 ga Sapim spokes from Danscomp.com. Despite what the website implies, they won't / can't cut them for customers That's why I bought a Cyclus die head and Cyclo tool from http://www.biketoolsetc.com. They had a great deal on the 12 ga Cyclus head so the entire setup "only" cost me $111 but I had to extend the flat on the shaft slightly with a file to make the Cyclus head compatable with the Cyclo tool.

I read various online reports of difficulties with this sort of tool (Hozan tool, etc.) but I have to say, my setup has worked great for me. It's very time consuming, of course, and patience may be real problem other users have experienced with these tools. (Or a lack of "wrench savvy ).

I've finished 13 spokes but the rest of a batch of 40 are in process (not cut yet, but lightly threaded to the 165mm spoke point). That leaves 40 spokes I've not touched yet. How many do you need and at what length? The Danscomp spokes are 184mm and I'm cutting my spokes to 165mm. One of the ways I justified spending money on the tool was to consider making it available to loan to some other needy e-bike enthusiast. It's hard to say how many spokes are in the life of the expensive die, but biketoolsetc thought maybe 200-300, depending on technique.

I see you live in CA and I know you're "wrench-savvy." PM me, if you'd be interested in borrowing the tool. It would be cheap to UPS it to CA. I'm using Phil oil on every "run" and a metal reinforced cutoff wheel on a Dremel tool to cut and lightly dress the ends of the spokes before final threading. I can provide further details.

-Cal

 

[fechter]

Good to know. I work in San Francisco.
I'm going to need 36 spokes, but I don't know the length yet.

 

[rkosiorek]

so you got the last one. i was going to buy it for myself for Christmas and was told that they were out of stock.

standard 14/15 gauge spokes use a 0.5mm metric pitch for the thread. which would work out to 50.8TPI. so i guess 50 would look close enough.

i would have tried first cutting to the 165mm length, followed by chamfering the cut end to 30 degrees using a belt sander (almost makes it look like a sharpenned pencil) to help start the thread and then using 2 or 3 passes through the rolling die to get the finished thread depth.

one of my dads hobbies was doing up wire wheels for antique cars and motorcycles. for some of the old cars getting new spokes was impossible so he used to make them by buying the closest motorcycle or car spoke available and then cutting, bending and threading the spokes to fit. it was definitely a labor of love on his part. that was the technique that he used.

rick

i'm waiting for them to get more of the cyclo tools in stock.

 

[calinb]

rick, Sorry I got the last one! So they're out of the Cyclo tool? How about the Cyclus die head? They gave me a really good price on the tool, though I had to widen the flat on the shaft of the tool to get the Cyclus head set screw to fit but they warned me about that. I think the tool was something less than $30 because they got some special deal on it. Also, my Cyclo tool only has a crank arm (no wheel). The Cyclus die head is expensive!
http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=914374420628&d=single&c=Tools&sc=Wheel-and-Rim&tc=Spoke-Threading-Machines&item_id=CU-152

i would have tried first cutting to the 165mm length, followed by chamfering the cut end to 30 degrees using a belt sander (almost makes it look like a sharpenned pencil) to help start the thread and then using 2 or 3 passes through the rolling die to get the finished thread depth.

I thought about doing the cut first and it seemed to be the most straightforward process ordering, but even having light threads on the tip of the spoke helps the tool to get started accurately, I decided to do a little extra threading and save the die from the wear and tear of starting. (If I'd cut to 165mm first, no threads would remain on the spoke.) The light threads were easy to form, because the factory threads were present. I doubt forming light threads causes much wear and tear on the die. After cutting, it is still somewhat more difficult to start the die onto the light threads--enough so that I'd prefer to avoid starting with no threads at all. Again, I'm just speculating but I think running the die onto a virgin spoke end with no threads at all probably causes more wear than making a few extra inches of light threads and leveraging the benefit of starting the die from the existing factory threads--regardless of how the tip is dressed and chamfered after making the cut. Note the multiple admonitions to starting on threads in the notes from the website:

Improper adjustment of the dies on spoke rolling machines can result in extremely short die life (as little as 5 or 10 spokes), and when properly used and adjusted the dies can last for several hundred spokes. There are several factors that contribute to wear on the spoke rolling dies including die adjustment (the die's rolling diameter), lubrication, speed (how fast you thread the spoke), and whether or not you start from pre-existing threads or on a blank spoke. The die should be adjusted on the threads of a factory threaded spoke of the same gauge of the spoke to be threaded. If possible, start threading from existing threads, feed at a slow hand rate, and use a light oil as a lube.

I dressed the spoke ends square and lightly chamfered the edges. Any fine abrasive should work well if driven by a power tool. I just used the flat surface of the cutoff wheel because it was already in hand. Yeah--three passes seems about right and it works very easily in three, though I'm sure one could force it in less.

50.8 TPI? Yeah--I just counted threads over a 1/4 of an inch, so I got pretty close.

-Cal

 

[rkosiorek]

he used to put on a really big chamfer. almost to a sharp point. it almost looked like a skewer or spear. i guess so that it would be really easy to start the threads.

also on some of the really thick car spokes he used to put a bend in the end so that the nipple left the rim almost perpendicular to the rim. on others the spokes were bent where they crossed over so that where they touched it was almost as if they were bent around each other. but these were thick spokes. if they didn't have the bends put into them they would be impossible to lace into the wheel.

i used to get real upset as a youngster that after dad put all the effort into custom making the spokes and creating a beautiful wheel the owner would paint the whole thing so it would be a "true" restoration.

rick

 

[calinb]

he used to put on a really big chamfer. almost to a sharp point. it almost looked like a skewer or spear. i guess so that it would be really easy to start the threads.
rick

The point would probably help, but then you have to cut off the point without damaging the threads (or reform them afterwards).

 

[Mathurin]

GM Sheldon laced the hub motor wheel on his trike semi-radial, all the spokes on one side are trailing, and all the spokes on the other side are leading.

 

[fechter]

GM Sheldon laced the hub motor wheel on his trike semi-radial, all the spokes on one side are trailing, and all the spokes on the other side are leading.

Interesting idea. I'd like to see a picture of that.

 

[vanilla ice]

I've laced motorcycle wheels up before and they had what you talk about, spherical spoke nuts and rims with a spherical seat. The seats bulge out from the rim a lot. The holes are offset right and left, and angled towards where the spokes go to the hub. It actually makes lacing easier since you can really only do it one way.

 

[Mathurin]

Here you go, sir:

 

[fechter]

I see. Thanks for the pic. The spokes appear to enter the rim at a pretty steep angle there too. With a slightly larger rim, I can see how that might be a very nice pattern.

 

[Link]

I've laced motorcycle wheels up before and they had what you talk about, spherical spoke nuts and rims with a spherical seat. The seats bulge out from the rim a lot. The holes are offset right and left, and angled towards where the spokes go to the hub. It actually makes lacing easier since you can really only do it one way.

Interesting. Know where you can get such things and if they make bike sized gauges?

 

[calinb]

I just finished building my new wheel for my X5. I cut my 12 ga Sapim spokes to exactly the same length as the Crystalyte spokes (165mm) for my new Salsa Gordo rim. I wish I'd gone slightly shorter--say 162mm. Fortunately, I rolled 2 or 3mm more thread onto my new spokes, but I'll have to grind a few spoke tips that are slightly poking through the 2nd hole/wall of the rim and into the tube area.

The Sapim site has this handy calculator, but I think it would be necessary to disassemble the wheel to take the measurements and I didn't want to take my bike out of service until AFTER I finished cutting and threading the spokes.

http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=spokelength

-Cal