Infineon XC846 72V 45 Amp Controller

[Knuckles]

Well I now have it and I like it.
And I have been testing it and (of course) dissecting it.
Basic Specs: (12) irfb4310 mosfets, Infineon XC846 microprocessor, LM317 Voltage regulation, 45 amp shunt settings.
btw ... The caps are glued to the pcb (fechter's recommendation)! Nice touch. Good to see that they (our Chinese friends) are listening to us!

One problem I have is that my motors won't pull anywhere near 45 amps.
The controller does make my best motors "take off" like SOBs and that is nice!
But at top speed I am still pulling under 30 amps (need to find some hills or a 'dirtdad' type trailer to pull).

Another problem I have is I don't have a PUMA/BMC to test it at 72V.
To me this is most critical as it is the primary reason for using this new MCU pcb.
This controller should run the PUMA/BMC flawlessly. Mark in UK is testing it now at 36V and 48V.
But I want to see the PUMA SCREAMING at 72V (ALWAYS check your motor for heating at these "ludicrous speed" settings)!

So here come some pics ... A quick glimpse "Out of the Box" ...

The first thing I noticed after plugging it in was that the controller was HOT!
Even when only using the orange wire to + of my charger PSU. Turns out the orange wire was drawing 130mA at 84V! Yikes! Why so much?
So I found out why. The VR power resistors were a total of 500 ohm. Big GOOF! The controller was generating 84V x 0.13A = 11 Watts of heat!

A little bit of V=IR math and I bumped them up to 800 ohm.
Now the max orange wire current is 70mA at 84V (and still 60mA at the LVC of 59V).
Here are the before and after pics of the power resistor "tweak".

The original resistor setup (left resistor is 300 ohm and right resistor is 200 ohm).

My mod moved the 300 ohm over and I added (3) - 1W 100 ohm resistors.

What is interesting is that the far right resistor actually bridges the LM317 input and output pins.
This has the effect (with other circuitry) of clamping a constant 15.5V for use by the controller.
60mA appears to be plenty to do this. Anything more than 60mA just generates excess wasteful heat.
For my 72V system, these extra resistors made it run so much cooler.

You may notice that 300 ohm resistor got a little toasty before the tweak!
Even at 800 ohm total all these resistors are way hot to the touch.
But now well within rated watt limits.

btw It would be kind of neat to use this "wasted" energy to run LED lights or something else. Just a thought.

 

[ZapPat]

I've checked out your photos, and this controller looks great!

What sold me on it:
- Better PCB layout than the older crazyman
- Uses a micro-controller better suited to the motor control task - this reduces parts required (no more excessive use of logic gates)
- For me, it seems to be better adapted to modifying it to do regen (I hope!)

I'm taking one!
Where to send Paypal money, Knuckles?

 

[mikereidis]

Cool.

I'm looking at the Chinese PPT: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=11780

What are the TKE RX and TKE TX boards ? I see a perhaps related schematic that shows a TDA5210 as central: 'http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/2300/378575_DS.pdf This is an ASK/FSK single conversion receiver.

So are these remote control boards for models etc ? Might be cool to have a RC trike or something and freak people out in driverless mode.

Or mount the controller and battery as close as possible to motor, and have the RC transmitter at hand level.

The PPT claims SLTECH.COM for a website, but it doesn't exist ? "Synergy Technology Holdings Limited" only gives me a few google hits like http://www.kompass.com/sv/HK016627 :


Synergy Technology Holdings Limited

Synergy Technology Holdings Limited

Rm 1604, Citicorp Centre
18 Whitfield Road
North Point, Hong Kong
Hongkong
Telefon : ‎+852 29695660
Fax : ‎+852 29695656
Antal anställda (totalt vid företaget) Från 51 till 100
Etableringsår 1992
Bolagsform Private Limited Company
Co.Registration No.: 0372660

 

[Knuckles]

Where to send Paypal money, Knuckles?

Well I am rnich01@optonline.net on paypal.
I also started putting up some ebay stuff here ... http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/robertn8094_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ

But ES folks should always contact me by PM for best deals.

A bit more relevant question for others might be how much do you think these will retail for?

btw ... The Infineon pricing is $125 + $9.50 shp (like in my original post here ... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4579#p67698)

-K

 

[Gregory]

I'm taking one!
Where to send Paypal money, Knuckles?

A bit more relevant question for others might be how much do you think these will retail for?
Thanks for the progress report.

 

[Knuckles]

Cool. I'm looking at the Chinese PPT: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=11780

I get a kick out of that ppt file. But I have no clue. As things develop I am sure we will figure all this stuff out.
Can you read Chinese?

 

[ZapPat]

For 48V operation, I would assume it's easy to tweak some resistor divider or something for the low voltage cutoff settings?

 

[Knuckles]

For 48V operation, I would assume it's easy to tweak some resistor divider or something for the low voltage cutoff settings?

So glad you asked!

It always bothered me that one would have to tweak the VR resistors AND the LVC resistors to operate the controller at different voltages.
Now the MCU (and other stuff in the controller) generally requires at least 50mA to operate. This is the minimum current needed in the orange wire.

The nice aspect of the Infineon is the use of the LM317 (on the pcb) that stays cool but the input to it really shouldn't exceed 35V.
The power resistors are selected to create this voltage drop for a given voltage range (say 90V to 60V).
The current thru these power resistors will vary, however, with 50mA being the bare minimum to prevent MCU non-operation.
The V(out) of the LM317 should be steady at no less than 15.5V and this (I suspect) is the ideal value.

So I thought current limiter. Just add another LM317 with the current limited to say 60mA.
Simple enough. Just add a 20 ohm resistor between the V(out) and the Adj pins and the current thru a LM317 is maxed at 60mA.
In fact 60mA will pass thru it with only a 2 volt drop across the component circuit. But there is a catch.
If the voltage drop gets to high the LM317 (with no heat sink) will shut off (internal thermal protection) and that is bad.

So hey, add a 12V zener diode (20mA max) to keep the voltage drop no more than 12V. Thus the LM317 circuit would pass 60mA from 2V to 12V voltage drop.
Gets quite warm at 12V x 0.06A = 0.72 watts but does not shut off. Stays on indefinitely even with no heat sink.
But heck, let's add a 330 ohm resistor to the zener shunt. Now this circuit is 60mA CC between 2V and 12V and then max current of 80mA at 18.6V.
All the components dissipate heat (1.5 watts total).

Several of these LM317 "blocks" could be strung together. With each one requiring only 2V to pass 60mA.
5 blocks in series wll pass a constant 60mA from 10V to 60V voltage drop.
Over 60V drop the current will slowly increase to 80mA at about 90V.

This could eliminate the power resistors altogether and be stock for any voltage controller.
They would only dissapate enough heat to keep the current at the preset 60mA value.
Where to mount these on the pcb is another story, however.

Goofy idea?

Here is a pic ...

 

[The7]

Cool. I'm looking at the Chinese PPT: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=11780

I get a kick out of that ppt file. But I have no clue. As things develop I am sure we will figure all this stuff out.
Can you read Chinese?

Using the Google translater
Slide 6
两个独立计时器可分别产生PWM
16位分辨率
中间/边沿对齐模式
计时器寄存器可同时更新
三个比较/捕获通道
可产生6个PWM输出
霍尔信号硬件滤波
输出有效电平可选，以适用不同器件
Two independent timer can be generated PWM
16 Resolution
Middle / edge alignment model
Timer registers can be updated
Three compare / capture channel
Can produce six PWM output
Hall of hardware signal filtering
Effective level optional output to the application of different devices

Side 7
自动检测速度，相位移功能及超时保护功能
BLDC块交换功能
通过霍尔信号检测转子位置
CTRAP紧急停止功能
多通道模式
可灵活采用计时器进行调制
自动触发ADC
Automatically detect speed, function and displacement of overtime protection
BLDC block the exchange of functional
Hall signal detection through the rotor position
CTRAP emergency stop function
Multi-channel mode
Flexibility to use the timer modulation
Automatically trigger ADC

Slide 8
同步整流介绍
可以提高电机驱动和开关电源的效率。
由于MOS管的导通电阻比较低，让去磁电流流过MOS管本体，而不是MOS管的寄生二极管，可减少损耗。
如果让MOS管工作在同步整流方式，可大幅度提高效率。英飞凌的OptiMOS具有低导通电阻和较高的开关速度，较适合用于同步整流。
XC846/XC866单片机集成了专用马达控制单元（CCU6），无需额外硬件和只需较少软件就可实现同步整流。
Synchronous rectification introduced
Can improve motor-driven and switching power supply efficiency.
MOS because of the relatively low-resistance, magnetic current to flow through the MOS body, rather than the MOS parasitic diodes, could reduce wear and tear.
If the MOS work in synchronous rectification, can significantly improve efficiency. Infineon's OptiMOS with low-resistance and high switching speeds, more suitable for synchronous rectification.
XC846/XC866 SCM integrates dedicated motor control unit (CCU6), no additional hardware and software can be realized only less synchronous rectification.

Side 9
CCU6实现同步整流
CCU6 achieve synchronous rectification
英飞凌单片机集成的马达控制单元，无需过多软件，就可工作在不同的驱动方式
Infineon microcontroller integrated motor control unit, without excessive software, we can work in different-driven approach.
每一个PWM部分都可以工作在不同的驱动方式下
Every part of a PWM can work in different drive under way
对同步整流来说，
b) 为 导通状况下
c) 为死区时间
e) 为关断时间
On the synchronous rectification,
b) for the on-state
c) for the dead time
e) for the off-time

 

[Knuckles]

Still looks like Chinese to me even after the translation

 

[The7]

Still looks like Chinese to me even after the translation

Perhaps ZapPat could explain what synchronous rectification is !?
Then it will become English.

 

[ZapPat]

Still looks like Chinese to me even after the translation

Perhaps ZapPat could explain what synchronous rectification is !?
Then it will become English.

Page 9 of that PP slideshow mentions this technique just a little bit.

It is simply the active switching of both top and bottom mosfets together, instead of only switching one and using the other as a diode. This is better because a good FET's voltage drop when conducting is almost always better than the diode's drop under that same current. All this means is... more efficiency, especialy so at low duty cycles when the bottom FET/diode conducts a large percentage of the time compared to the top FET.

Check this thread for more info about this if you like a bit of tech talk:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5525

 

[Knuckles]

"ZapPat v The7" ... Battle of the TITANS!

Maybe you guys should start a new thread and do battle over really technical PWM stuff!

Make it barbaric too like "Gladiator"! I WANT BLOOD!

Meanwhile the Infineon controller is SICK SICK SICK! I think I created a monster!
This freaking controller kicks ass!
My front hub is like a freaking giant rotating "Saw Blade of Death".
Speed Racer style! YIKES!

 

[mikereidis]

My front hub is like a freaking giant rotating "Saw Blade of Death".
Speed Racer style! YIKES!

Heck I'm not electrified yet, but I already have a "blade of death" at the front. My MWB recumbent front gears are the first thing most drivers see coming toward them; and they steer clear !

Now if I could just get one of them fancy $2k chain drives, I could spin that gutter/vasoctemator even faster...

I can't read Chinese but I work for a tech company where at least half are Chinese, so perhaps I should try to intrigue some native speakers into e-biking...

 

[biketrials]

I'm aussie + an electronics eng + can read chinese.... let me know which bit u need help with. Chinese is too different to english, so the web translators sort of suck

 

[mikereidis]

I can't find Infineon data on an XC846, but there are some google hits. OEM perhaps ?

I see the PPT mentions an XC866 also, perhaps an upgrade ?

Has 8051, PWM and ADC and seems to be intended for motor control. Nice.


"XC846/XC866 SCM integrates dedicated motor control unit (CCU6), no additional hardware and software can be realized only less synchronous rectification."

Or perhaps the XC846 has "less synchronous rectification." ?


Here's an app note for Brushless controller with Hall Sensors: http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/AP0802610_Hall_Sensor_BLDC_Control.pdf?location=Products.Microcontrollers.8-Bit.XC800_Family.XC866_series.DOCUMENTS.AP0802610_Hall_Sensor_BLDC_Control.pdf&folderId=db3a304412b407950112b40c497b0af6&fileId=db3a304412b407950112b40c61bd0b0f



http://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/channel.html?channel=ff80808112ab681d0112ab6b826c0867&tab=2

The XC866 family members are based on the standard 8051 architecture with on-chip flash memory of 4 kBytes, 8 kBytes or 16 kBytes. Performance and cost-saving features of the XC866 include a 26.67MHz system frequency, an on-chip os-cillator and PLL for clock generation and an embedded voltage regulator supporting single voltage supply of 3.3V or 5.0V.
ADDITIONAL KEY FEATURES include support for LIN (Local Interconnected Network), an enhanced CAPCOM6E unit for flexible PWM generation and a new 10-Bit ADC with extended functionality (e.g. comparator mode).
THE XC866 with its rich peripheral set offers an optimized fit to a wide range of different applications in the industrial and automotive sector.
THE NEW XC866 HOT microcontrollers exceed today’s maximum temperature peak of +85°C for industrial applications and of +125°C usual in automotive applications. This makes the XC866 HOT microcontrollers ideal for use in high-temperature designs where they can be applied directly into the application making pricey heat dissipation mechanisms and complex cooling systems obsolete and, thus, reducing overall system cost.



BTW, http://www.sletech.com/
E-mail
vincent@sletech.com

On this page there's a picture of a cool looking e-scooter: http://www.sletech.com/project.htm Can anyone identify the e-scooter ?

I think that "RKE" is "Remote Keyless Entry". RKE RX is receiver of course, 15 ma drain ? RKE TX is transmitter, or key fob.

Hmmm, is this a theft prevention add-on ? That's what E-Bikes need ! I presume it's button activated, and not the cooler, but more trouble-prone system that only requires key fob proximity...

Slide 3: TPMS/RKE

TPMS = Tire Pressure Monitoring System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_pressure_monitoring_system

Almost seems like they're targetting small electric cars, although perhaps showing a few pictures of Infineon evaluation boards is more a dream of futures, rather than something serious today.

500 watts and 27 amps are the beefiest specs I see on the PPT. Don't know what the "6" and "9" are...

 

[mikereidis]

Does this help answering the question about maximum RPM supported ?:

Timer T12: 16-bit resolution, maximum count frequency = peripheral clock frequency
Timer T13: 16-bit resolution, maximum count frequency = peripheral clock frequency

From pg 270:
http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/XC866_um_v1.3.zip?location=Products.Microcontrollers.8-Bit.XC800_Family.XC866_series.DOCUMENTS.XC866_um_v1.3.zip&folderId=db3a304412b407950112b408e8c90004&fileId=db3a304412b407950112b41988e7289e


XC866
Capture/Compare Unit 6
User’s Manual 12-1 V 1.3, 2007-02
CCU6, V 1.0

12 Capture/Compare Unit 6

The Capture/Compare Unit 6 (CCU6) provides two independent timers (T12, T13), which
can be used for Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) generation, especially for AC-motor
control. The CCU6 also supports special control modes for block commutation and
multi-phase machines. The block diagram of the CCU6 module is shown in Figure 12-1.
The timer T12 can function in capture and/or compare mode for its three channels. The
timer T13 can work in compare mode only.

The multi-channel control unit generates output patterns, which can be modulated by
T12 and/or T13. The modulation sources can be selected and combined for the signal
modulation.

Timer T12 Features:
• Three capture/compare channels, each channel can be used either as a capture or as
a compare channel
• Supports generation of a three-phase PWM (six outputs, individual signals for
highside and lowside switches)
• 16-bit resolution, maximum count frequency = peripheral clock frequency
• Dead-time control for each channel to avoid short-circuits in the power stage
• Concurrent update of the required T12/13 registers
• Generation of center-aligned and edge-aligned PWM
• Supports single-shot mode
• Supports many interrupt request sources
• Hysteresis-like control mode

Timer T13 Features:
• One independent compare channel with one output
• 16-bit resolution, maximum count frequency = peripheral clock frequency
• Can be synchronized to T12
• Interrupt generation at period-match and compare-match
• Supports single-shot mode

Additional Features:
• Implements block commutation for Brushless DC-drives
• Position detection via Hall-sensor pattern
• Automatic rotational speed measurement for block commutation
• Integrated error handling
• Fast emergency stop without CPU load via external signal (CTRAP)
• Control modes for multi-channel AC-drives
• Output levels can be selected and adapted to the power stage


....

 

[ZapPat]

I've been reading infinion's app notes and datasheets concerning their motor control microcontroller family (like the XC846/XC886), and they do seem to have good hardware features for 3 phase brushless control (much better than the low end PIC used on the older crazyman controller). BUT... If you compare their documents to others like microchip's, you will have more trouble understanding what they are trying to get across. Infinion's docs have a "translated" feel to them, although they are translated quite well. Still when it comes to complex technical things, I don't want language ambiguities added to my challenges.

Also from what I've read about the infinion micro, there would be no problem in implementing regen with it by hacking or rewriting the code. If of course the hardware ON the PCB would be OK for this (not known yet). I am about to order one, so I'll let people know about this...

 

[Knuckles]

Dude ... You are awesome! Hack away! Real regen is the next last step!

 

[biketrials]

have you guys seen the august 2007 edition of circuit cellar magazine? has an article on making an ebike with all the usual plus torque sensor, regen and supercaps using a dsPIC.
code is here:
ftp://ftp.circuitcellar.com/pub/Circuit_Cellar/2007/205
Buchanan-205.zip

 

[ZapPat]

have you guys seen the august 2007 edition of circuit cellar magazine? has an article on making an ebike with all the usual plus torque sensor, regen and supercaps using a dsPIC.
code is here:
ftp://ftp.circuitcellar.com/pub/Circuit_Cellar/2007/205
Buchanan-205.zip

Interesting, but does anyone have the PDF of the circuit cellar article to go with this?

I could buy the PDF, but it kinda goes against my principals even if it is only a buck and a half... If no one has it, I'll probably buy it in a few days, out of curiosity (and post it here of course). It is based on a microchip app note, but looks to have extra features added in.

 

[biketrials]

have you guys seen the august 2007 edition of circuit cellar magazine? has an article on making an ebike with all the usual plus torque sensor, regen and supercaps using a dsPIC.
code is here:
ftp://ftp.circuitcellar.com/pub/Circuit_Cellar/2007/205
Buchanan-205.zip

Interesting, but does anyone have the PDF of the circuit cellar article to go with this?

I could buy the PDF, but it kinda goes against my principals even if it is only a buck and a half... If no one has it, I'll probably buy it in a few days, out of curiosity (and post it here of course). It is based on a microchip app note, but looks to have extra features added in.

hold on a bit there.....
PS. i warn you it's not the most polished design, more like a development project.. sounds familiar

 

[mikereidis]

Also from what I've read about the infinion micro, there would be no problem in implementing regen with it by hacking or rewriting the code. If of course the hardware ON the PCB would be OK for this (not known yet). I am about to order one, so I'll let people know about this...

I couldn't find any info on regen in the Infineon docs. Did you ?

I saw something about CTRAP which is an emergency stop initiated by a hardware line. My first thought was this was electric braking, but I think now it just stops the PWM and isolates the FETs. This could be used in conjunction with regen, but I'm not aware of any regen circuitry on the board yet.

My impression with the Infineon is that if the MCU code crashed or hung, the PWM would continue at the last throttle setting. Could be bad for full throttle. Watchdog timer could fix that if the code implements that.

OTOH, the ecrazyman controller I guess would stop PWMing if the code stopped. IE the RPM limit is a code efficiency limit. The Infineon, OTOH, is more limited by the hardware and frequency input. Software could change the pre-scaler though.

Anyway, Infineon seems superior architecture for PWM 3 phase BLDC controller. Hope the code and other hardware are decent.

 

[ZapPat]

No Mike, I didn't see anything in their datasheet and app notes specificaly about regen, but I wouldn't expect it. You could go by any other docs about this, since the PWM hardware on these infinons seems almost the same as the 18F motor control PICs, and I would guess a few other micros too.

One problem is reading negative current sensing through the shunt, which I'm pretty sure this board will not be set up for. Also overvoltage protection may or may not be there.

A number of changes would have to be made to the software, or just re-write the code from zero. Personnaly, I will stick with microchip PICs, mostly because their documents are much clearer I think. And because I don't want to learn a new micro again for now. Maybe I'll make a mini adaptor board to convert a PIC's pinout to the infinion's, but only if this board proves to be worth it otherwise... I guess I'll know if it's possible to add regen (and worth it) when I get my controller in about a week.

 

[mikereidis]

Maybe I'll make a mini adaptor board to convert a PIC's pinout to the infinion's, but only if this board proves to be worth it otherwise... I guess I'll know if it's possible to add regen (and worth it) when I get my controller in about a week.

Adapter board and PIC sounds like a lot of work. Do you have a PIC with hardware PWM or would you do that in software ?

I'm interested in e-braking, but unless I found a controller that does really good variable regen, I'd be more inclined to build a "variable e-brake add-on controller", that just dumps the power to a power resistor or light bulb. Perhaps a red brake bulb under my seat would provide a bit of heat in cooler weather, relocated farther back in summer.

This "variable e-brake add-on controller" would connect to the three phase wires in parallel with the controller. If engaged it must first disable the controller, perhaps through CTRAP or V-Brake signals or any other way to ensure speed controller won't put voltage on the motor.

I read something about an idea to use a brushed DC controller for variable e-braking. I'm not sure how well that would work with AC from motor, instead of DC. Also, would need 3 brushed controllers for all 3 phases. A single controller, would be "ghetto" I presume and the e-braking would pulse and not be smooth.

It seems like a waste though, just ignoring the existing nice 3 phase PWM high-amp and voltage circuitry on the speed controller. Would be ideal if same controller can be used for e-braking.