Innexpensive, federally legal trikes?

[recumpence]

I have a Catrike here now that I am working on. :wink:

The comment I made on the high markup on the Astro brushed motors means I can discount those down depending on how many I order.

Again, this may flop, it may not. It is definately worth the effort to try out, though.

Matt

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Maybe instead of federally legal you should make them legal in the state of the purchaser. For example the California requirements are stated here.

Excerpts:

What is a moped or motorized bicycle?
* There are two types of motorized bicycles, defined in the California Vehicle Code (VC) Sections 406(a) and 406(b).
* Section 406(a) VC refers to a moped or motorized bicycle as any two or three wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, has an automatic transmission, and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

* Section 406(b) VC refers to a motorized bicycle as a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that:
* Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
* Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
* Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.

Motorized Bicycle (Section 406(b) VC)
* Driver's License not required but rider must be at least 16 years of age.

Note that the limit is 1kw, not 750 watts and the speed limit is slightly more complex than a straight 20 miles per hour.

Also registration as a Moped might be a viable option for someone who wants a more powerful, legal trike and is willing to get a license and registration etc.

 

[paultrafalgar]

WTF does:
"* Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour."
mean!
If you pedal downhill at 21 mph, your bike has become illegal!

 

[jmygann]

That is correct if your bike has an electric motor. Faster than 20 mph ... get a moped
There is a reason for that sentence. I am in California and have such a bike.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Paul,

WTF does:
"* Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour."
mean!
If you pedal downhill at 21 mph, your bike has become illegal!

No! It means if you pedal at faster than 20mph the motor shouldn't be assisting you to reach that speed. Using hills for assistance isn't illegal :wink:

 

[gogo]

Excerpts:

What is a moped or motorized bicycle?
* There are two types of motorized bicycles, defined in the California Vehicle Code (VC) Sections 406(a) and 406(b).
* Section 406(a) VC refers to a moped or motorized bicycle as any two or three wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical energy, has an automatic transmission, and a motor which produces less than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level ground.

* Section 406(b) VC refers to a motorized bicycle as a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and:
* has an electric motor that Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts;
* has an electric motor that Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on level ground; and
* has an electric motor that Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.

Motorized Bicycle (Section 406(b) VC)
* Driver's License not required but rider must be at least 16 years of age.

Its just saying the motor can't make it go more than 20, pedalling to make it go faster is allowed.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Excerpts:

* has an electric motor that Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.[/b]

Its just saying the motor can't make it go more than 20, pedaling to make it go faster is allowed.

No. It says "further increasing".

 

[gogo]

Hi,

Excerpts:

* has an electric motor that Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.[/b]

Its just saying the motor can't make it go more than 20, pedaling to make it go faster is allowed.

No. It says "further increasing".

Its refering to the motor's contribution, I believe.

My interpretation is that if you are pedalling, they are going to have to get the physiology charts out to prove that there's no way that (1000W + your contribution) could propel you at whatever speed they clock you doing over 20.

If you're going 25 up a hill and not pedalling its a clean bust.

 

[paultrafalgar]

So, lots of difficulty for law enforcement and lots of money for lawyers then?!
Business as usual :wink:

 

[gunthn]

I am not sure CA is any position to send the CHIPS out after your ebike. :lol:

Just keep it under fifty. OK+ kid


Out here in lawless Providence the cops only reaction is how can I get me one on those or what do I have to do to make you give me that one.

 

[trikebldr]

I'm new to this forum, and maybe all that I have to say about this has been said, but I'll say it anyway to be sure that all the bases have been covered. And, I must say that I am quite impressed by Matt's work, both from the technical side and the quality of work he turns out. Matt, you said you liked ego stroking, so does that give you a big enough fix for one day? LOL!

Enough of silliness! Now, to the points.

On the issue of legalities, if an e-drive is too powerful on the road, then just where IS it legal? Most legally accessible trails and paths are regulated to even smaller drives than the roads, so if it's too powerful for the street, then where is it legal?

I like the concept of building the drive unit using a motor/ESC capable of 4kw+ and just supplying a lower voltage battery pack with it, and an instruction sheet on how to use the system AS-IS. It's on the buyer's shoulders if he "improves" the system by adding more voltage. It's been done for eons to all forms of mechanical contrivances. The laws protect the manufacturers from liability if the buyer violates the instructions or modifies the product. Adding a higher voltage pack wouldn't be any easier than changing the chip in a car's computer, or modifying the turbo's linkage to the waste-gate, so it can't be seen any different than modifying a car like that. All things can be made better and faster! A larger capacity motor can be marketed on the basis of longer life from less stress.

As for the brushed cobalt motors for use in these drives, I see a problem that Matt and Dave addressed earlier with the outrunner motors. If these brushed motors are stock aircraft use units, then their bearings won't live long. Aircraft motors are designed for relatively light radial loading because the prop doesn't impart much radial load like these drives do. Their bearings usually have more thrust capacity designed into them than radial capacity.
There is a solution to using these stock motors, though. I forget the name, brand or field terminology for them, but there is a coupling used in industrial applications that allows for slight misalignment of a motor's output shaft to the driven equipment's imput shaft. It has a rubber "X" member between two four-fingered drive pieces to absorb the misalignment and vibrations. If the input of the gear reduction unit had it's input shaft self-supported, the stock, brushed cobalt drive motor could be used with this arrangement because it wouldn't see any radial loading to speak of.

That's all I've got!

 

[Miles]

There is a solution to using these stock motors, though. I forget the name, brand or field terminology for them, but there is a coupling used in industrial applications that allows for slight misalignment of a motor's output shaft to the driven equipment's imput shaft. It has a rubber "X" member between two four-fingered drive pieces to absorb the misalignment and vibrations. If the input of the gear reduction unit had it's input shaft self-supported, the stock, brushed cobalt drive motor could be used with this arrangement because it wouldn't see any radial loading to speak of.

Welcome Bruce.

Grinhill did something similar, here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10635

 

[jmygann]

If using a 3 speed internal hub and a 20-24 in wheel , then which 1000 watt (50 volt at 20 amp) motor(without reduction) would be available ? to get to 25 mph

Which RC motor ?

or

48 volt BMC ...http://www.thesuperkids.com/10wabmc36vor.html

I think a similar motor is being used at 36 volts by ecospeed

In other words what would Miles replace his motor with ... using 48 volts and existing drive train and be quick to 25 mph ?

 

[recumpence]

As for bearing durability, I have never seen a good quality RC motor bearing fail in bike use. That does not mean it will not happen. But, I am not worried about it in the least. Most RC airplane motors are also used in helis. Heli drive systems impart alot of side load to the motor shaft and they do not fail there.

I think it is all good.

Matt

 

[Miles]

Their bearings usually have more thrust capacity designed into them than radial capacity.

I hear this said a lot, but is it actually the case? Are they some kind of angular contact bearing or are they just deep groove radial.... or what...?

 

[jmygann]

So does anyone have a design for a "Innexpensive, federal/state legal trike" ?

Catrike Villager ?

KMX Cobra , Runabout , Lietra,

http://revver.com/video/1134637/leitra-velomobile-for-sale/

 

[recumpence]

The least expensive option would be a KMX trike. I make complete bolt-on sytems for them. I still haven't tried out the small brushed Astro system. But, you could always run an Astro 3210 with Fechter's limiter board and turn it down to the 750 watt limit.

Matt

 

[jmygann]

Any seat options on the KMX trikes ? ...........like a 14 in high gel seat in a KMX Cobra ... SRAM DD

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

The least expensive option would be a KMX trike. I make complete bolt-on systems for them…

Any seat options on the KMX trikes ? ...........like a 14 in high gel seat in a KMX Cobra ... SRAM DD

Purchase a KMX, set it up however you want and purchase a bolt-on system.

BTW this looks like a good deal on a KMX:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13950

Hey Guys,

I got ahold of a few 2006 model KMX "X" class trikes new in the box from my distributor (I am a KMX dealer). This trike is $900 shipped to the lower 48 here in the US.

Back in 2006, this trike cost $1,200. Today, the closest KMX trike you can buy to this spec is $1,549. So, I think $900 is a great deal.

I am an hour northwest of Chicago. If you want it picked up, I can either take $800 instead, or I could assemble it for you ready to go.

Matt

 

[jmygann]

Are the wheels 24" and 16" ?

 

[recumpence]

Yes, 16 inch front and 24 inch rear.

You have good eyes!

Matt

 

[jmygann]

top pedaling speed of KMX .... 24" rear wheel?

high gear would be ? large gear on on the crank ? small gear on rear... 11T ?

I am legally allowed 1000 watts.... but who is checking ?

I have a 48 volt 20 Ahr Headway pack .... so what would be the motor for the "Inexpensive, federally legal trike" ?

Hub ? , Non Hub ?? , RC , Motor for the SRAM DD ?