Installing 220V in the garage to charge FASTER

[Kurt]

Buy your self a 10,000 mile extension cord?

Its 240v all day every day in Au

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Buy your self a 10,000 mile extension cord?

Don't you guys have 13A fuses? Everyone knows its the current that counts, not the voltage.

I was just wondering what I would even do to monitor a 240 line. My Kill A Watt is only rated for 125VAC, and now most of the buttons don't even work. Is it just me, or do these things only last a few months? This is my 3rd one! I'm thinking the 26A made it mad.

 

[Kurt]

Don't you guys have 13A fuses? Everyone knows its the current that counts, not the voltage

15A on power points

They rate them at 10A 2400w. But you can pull well over 3000w from them. I actually run a 30A to my garage with lathes, power tools,big air compressor and welders that like some more juice. I haven't upgraded from the old wire fuse so I run a earth leakage breaker so i dont get hung up on 240v frying while the wire fuse slowly burns out LOL

I only have one 10a breaker but that's for the 1500w of solar panels. Lighting is 8A.

Kurt

 

[Hillhater]

Don't you guys have 13A fuses? Everyone knows its the current that counts, not the voltage.

if that is the extent of your electrical power transmission knowlege,.. i suggest you stop fooling around with anything electrical !
... and ask yourself why you want to increase the voltage anyway ?

 

[amberwolf]

The only problem would be there would no longer be 110 in the garage.

Sure there would--it'd have 110 on each phase, so you only use one phase to the GDO and other 110 stuff. Bit of rewiring, but no new runs needed, as long as you're wlling to live without the earth ground.

And yes, I believe the 220V plug in the US is simply a normal one with both prongs rotated.

There are several plugs that are used for 220V, including a circular locking style with three prongs I've seen on at least one UPS system, and a Y-blade style in at least two formats (30A, 50A) like what's on my dryer and my stove.

 

[marty]

Get a permit. In some towns the homeowner can do electrical work on his own house. In some places you need to hire a licensed electrician. Call and ask. $20 or so spent on a permit is a good price for some good advise on how to do what you want to do. I learn allot by asking the inspectors questions. Also its good idea to show the inspector all the parts and pieces before you put it all together. Most electrical inspectors will be happy to share there knowledge with you.

Reading code books is like studying the bible. Big code book can be hard to understand. I bought:
Code Check Electrical: An Illustrated Guide to Wiring a Safe House, 4th Edition [Spiral-bound]
Its a few years old but I still look at it. I am guessing that the codes in Canada are a little different.

 

[Gordo]

I am tired of waiting the charger to end the charge process at 1700W max power.. I WANT MORE !!!

I have a good idea on "how to... and how it work" but my only experience is that i installed switch and outlets and few breakers.. but never a second electrical box..

Should i go with what it's called a sub panel ?


Any recommandations , or expertise from electrician ?

Thanks in advance

Doc

Hey Doc;
I'm in QCity from Sept 19-28. Have a Canuk Electrician "D" ticket. Would like to meet you anyway and can probably give you guidance. I installed a 100A sub-panel in my shop and run all my 220V loads off it. Use either all clothes dryer or stove whips for everything. Either 30A or 40A, your choice. At the hardware store each whip is $20, at the recycle, $1.
PM me if you want a visit.

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

I took a glance at the panel, and found out that the garage line was indeed 12/2, and had two bedrooms on the same 15A breaker! Currently the rooms are pulling about 4A, which sure helps explain why the garage breaker trips easily. The only open breaker was a 15A GFCI, which the garage alone is now on. I have to get a 20A breaker in there, since the 12/2 is actually rated for it.

Looks like 2KW charging is going to be possible! As long as the charging ends fast enough...

 

[dnmun]

if you have 12 gauge then you can get a lot of power out there easily, not sure why these guys are whining about how you need a permit and someone to hold your hand. maybe they need it, that's their problem. i would never allow an inspector on my property. period.

you do not need the 4 wire conductors or the 6 gauge wire. you get the 120 between the ground and the black or white hot wires when it is 240V. in the case where you carry bare ground to a box, then use it as common makes that box a sub junction box and the bare ground is the ground bar in that sub junction box. whether that box is a 16 cu in plastic remodel box or a 40 circuit service panel. all the same. it is a sub junction box by definition when it is served off the main service panel.

all cables coming out of a service or splice box have to have breakers or fuses, and any connections which are not permanent and soldered have to be in box, so it can be inspected and serviced.

i just broke that one too the other day adding new romex to my old spool and thimble wiring inside a wall above the porch for the porch light. i don't even feel bad about it. no other way but it would not make code i bet.

make sure you can follow the cable as it snakes through the walls and attic though, to be certain that some other equipment, like the furnace or other appliance is not on the circuit too. but you can rewire it to 120 too. just put a wire nut on the end of the unused conductor going into the appliance and use the bare ground as the common.

 

[Hillhater]

In Australia, we are not even allowed to change out a leaking tap washer without a plumbers licence !
god forbid we should consider even thinking about fitting a plug onto an appliance lead , never mind opening the main fuse panel :wink:

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

While its technically possible to run 240 on a standard 12/2 romex, its technically not to code, and a lot easier to just drop a 20A breaker in. I would need to add another outlet in the garage for the 240, re-wire the existing one, as well as the garage door opener and any other exterior outlets that might be on that circuit. If it was up to me, I would be running at least 50A 2 phase into the garage.

All I need the thing for is to run 4 series 500W Meanwells at the rated power of 2KW. They even have PFC, which I can't test easily now that my Kill-A-Watt wont go into PF mode. It should be drawing JUST over 20A peak off 115VAC at the termination voltage of 4.12V/cell. I would imagine the 20A breaker can sustain that for the 10-20 minutes without question. The only issue would be if my brother decides to charge his bike or plug some heavy load in while my bike is sipping juice.

It's a bit frowned upon in the US to be screwing with the mains without proper certification. Just don't tell anyone who might care and you're good to go.

 

[Kurt]

In Australia, we are not even allowed to change out a leaking tap washer without a plumbers licence !
god forbid we should consider even thinking about fitting a plug onto an appliance lead , never mind opening the main fuse panel :wink:

We would have to be one of the most over regulated nanny country's in the world. Unions play there part in making sure you have to pay some one top $ to do simple tasks around the house.

I can understand the other extreme as I have traveld a lot . I have seen some shocking :? examples of bad wiring practices in 3rd world country's. Using bell wire on AC units -

I think the idea in Australia is to de skill everyone. Our gun laws make no sense ether. Its totally illegal... prison time to own a BB or air gun without a licence and a tone of red tape and registration. Funny thing is You need to sit the same licence that covers you for a 12g shot gun :? . That little .177 air gun would be lucky to shoot a hole through your T shirt. Yet get this its perfectly legal for a 15yo kid with no licence or back ground check to go and purchase a 80lb compound bow. That bow can bring down a Elk or Buffalo with a single shot.

But hey I love living here and tend to just do my own thing.

Kurt.

 

[dnmun]

i find that a 20A breaker will handle 20 amps continuously. if you push it to 24A they will usually start buzzing and then blow after an hour or so. you can still get 120V at each box in the circuit, that was the point of doing it that way. it just allows you to use the wire you already have in place to carry 240V out to that location. you may decide you need the 240V for an A/C in the bedroom also. a 12G wire will carry more than 20A without problem too. look at how much current people put through their motors with just little 14G wires for conductors and 50A of phase wire current. why is the wiring in the house less capable? seems like it would be more capable of handling the current because it is not wrapped up with all the other wires overheating so it can handle a lot more current. the trick is having solid connections, i also solder each joint. 12G can handle 40A without getting hot imo. so now lets hear some more whining/inspector please help me!!!??

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

In the US you walk into WalMart and pick up a 12 gauge shotgun with ease. You just need to be 18 or older and have valid government issued ID.

You can be walking out with a shotgun and ammo in under 10 minutes. However, you do need to be at least 18 to get just about any 'weapon', including airsoft and paintaball stuff...

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

i find that a 20A breaker will handle 20 amps continuously. if you push it to 24A they will usually start buzzing and then blow after an hour or so. you can still get 120V at each box in the circuit, that was the point of doing it that way. it just allows you to use the wire you already have in place to carry 240V out to that location. you may decide you need the 240V for an A/C in the bedroom also. a 12G wire will carry more than 20A without problem too. look at how much current people put through their motors with just little 14G wires for conductors and 50A of phase wire current. why is the wiring in the house less capable? seems like it would be more capable of handling the current because it is not wrapped up with all the other wires overheating so it can handle a lot more current. the trick is having solid connections, i also solder each joint. 12G can handle 40A without getting hot imo. so now lets hear some more whining/inspector please help me!!!??

While I agree with most of this, the wiring in the wall isn't something I would be a big fan of getting hot. I didn't install it, I can't see it, and its surrounded by a flammable object called a house. If they say its rated for 20A, I wouldn't want to run more than 25-30A into it for very long.

I still have stock phase wires on my GM and run 160A into them, lol. They sure do get hot!

 

[dnmun]

you can buy a gun without any of that hassle. i bot a 9mm semiautomatic pistol for $150 on CL. no questions asked. private parties are not covered by the law.

about the wires getting hot, that is not gonna happen if you have a breaker. it is not the wires that overheat, but bad connections in the junction box that get hot. that is easy to fix.

 

[Hillhater]

you can buy a gun without any of that hassle. i bot a 9mm semiautomatic pistol for $150 on CL. no questions asked. private parties are not covered by the law...

Whilst i am no supporter of a "nanny" state, or regulations generally,...
....that level of freedom for getting a gun is too much !
guns dont worry me, but the owners can be unpredictable !
Kurt is correct, the Aussie laws are all screwed up, but they may prevent a few nutters getting their hands easily on a weapon.
But , having said that, anyone who really WANTS a weapon could get one if they ignore the laws. :?

 

[Fishmasterdan]

i find that a 20A breaker will handle 20 amps continuously. if you push it to 24A they will usually start buzzing and then blow after an hour or so. you can still get 120V at each box in the circuit, that was the point of doing it that way. it just allows you to use the wire you already have in place to carry 240V out to that location. you may decide you need the 240V for an A/C in the bedroom also. a 12G wire will carry more than 20A without problem too. look at how much current people put through their motors with just little 14G wires for conductors and 50A of phase wire current. why is the wiring in the house less capable? seems like it would be more capable of handling the current because it is not wrapped up with all the other wires overheating so it can handle a lot more current. the trick is having solid connections, i also solder each joint. 12G can handle 40A without getting hot imo. so now lets hear some more whining/inspector please help me!!!??

are you serious Dont be a fool and try any of this in your home wiring.

 

[Gordo]

i find that a 20A breaker will handle 20 amps continuously. if you push it to 24A they will usually start buzzing and then blow after an hour or so. you can still get 120V at each box in the circuit, that was the point of doing it that way. it just allows you to use the wire you already have in place to carry 240V out to that location. you may decide you need the 240V for an A/C in the bedroom also. a 12G wire will carry more than 20A without problem too. look at how much current people put through their motors with just little 14G wires for conductors and 50A of phase wire current. why is the wiring in the house less capable? seems like it would be more capable of handling the current because it is not wrapped up with all the other wires overheating so it can handle a lot more current. the trick is having solid connections, i also solder each joint. 12G can handle 40A without getting hot imo. so now lets hear some more whining/inspector please help me!!!??

dnmun;
You should not give advice on a subject you don't understand. You are mixing RMS with pulsed DC and coming up with very bad advice. Please do a simple test. Connect a 40A load at 120VAC to 50' of #12 wire and see what happens to the wire? Until you have done that, your opinion does not come from experience.

 

[Doctorbass]

UPDATE 27 sept 2011

I have examined wich option i have on my actual main panel and concluded that i only have two left location for adding breaker. and.. they are on the same pole

so i have two options: i can offset all offsetable single pole breaker above these two free locations to get two poles and get the 240V... in this case the max amp per pole for a single location is 40A so i could install a double pole 40A breaker in the main panel.

OR

The other option is to modify our actual 60A double pole breaker that is for the hot tub.

Teh best i would like to have is 60A dual pole.. but they need 4 locations on the main panel and i only have 2.

Our hot tub already have a sub panel installed left to it 1 feet away that is connected to the 60A breaker of the main panel.. In that sub panel, there is a 40A double pole breaker that feed the hot tub.

so.. our hot tub is connected thru a sub panel that limit it already to 40A.. so my question is

can i install a double pole 40A on the two left location in the main panel that will feed the hot tub sub panel that have 40A double pole inside?.. resulting in a serie dual pole 40A breaker to feed the hot tub?.. and than use the empty 60A for the garage sub panel?

ex:

actual connections

Main panel that have a double pole 60A using 4 locations that is feeding the hot tub sub panel that have a double pole 40A that end to the hot tub

2 free location on the main panel ( allowing max double pole 40A)

New connections
The actual double pole 60A of the main panel will feed the garage sub panel
The hot tub subpanel will be feeded by the new installed double pole 40A in the main panel
( in the hot tub subpanel, there is only a double pole 40A that is connected directly to the hot tub.)

now i wonder if having two breaker in serie ( one is the main panel and one in the sub panel fo the hot tub) that have the same 40A rating is ok ?

Doc

 

[Gordo]

UPDATE 27 sept 2011

I have examined wich option i have on my actual main panel and concluded that i only have two left location for adding breaker. and.. they are on the same pole

so i have two options: i can offset all offsetable single pole breaker above these two free locations to get two poles and get the 240V... in this case the max amp per pole for a single location is 40A so i could install a double pole 40A breaker in the main panel.

OR

The other option is to modify our actual 60A double pole breaker that is for the hot tub.

Teh best i would like to have is 60A dual pole.. but they need 4 locations on the main panel and i only have 2.

Our hot tub already have a sub panel installed left to it 1 feet away that is connected to the 60A breaker of the main panel.. In that sub panel, there is a 40A double pole breaker that feed the hot tub.

so.. our hot tub is connected thru a sub panel that limit it already to 40A.. so my question is

can i install a double pole 40A on the two left location in the main panel that will feed the hot tub sub panel that have 40A double pole inside?.. resulting in a serie dual pole 40A breaker to feed the hot tub?.. and than use the empty 60A for the garage sub panel?

ex:

actual connections

Main panel that have a double pole 60A using 4 locations that is feeding the hot tub sub panel that have a double pole 40A that end to the hot tub

2 free location on the main panel ( allowing max double pole 40A)

New connections
The actual double pole 60A of the main panel will feed the garage sub panel
The hot tub subpanel will be feeded by the new installed double pole 40A in the main panel
( in the hot tub subpanel, there is only a double pole 40A that is connected directly to the hot tub.)

now i wonder if having two breaker in serie ( one is the main panel and one in the sub panel fo the hot tub) that have the same 40A rating is ok ?

Doc

Doc;
How did you determine the max per pole in the main panel is 40A? You already have a 60A per pole in your main panel.
As we discussed, I believe the correct method is to put a 100 amp breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel. I will be visiting with ES member FishermanDan this afternoon and he has the appropriate tickets and experience. I will get him to read this post and respond.
"Sitting in sunny toronto, waiting for the next hop."

 

[marty]

Drawing of panel on the left is not correct if it is the main panel. I copy:

When used as a service, the white neutral and the bare or green equipment grounds MUST be bonded together AND to the enclosure. This connection is essential to the safe operation of the grounding system

In a downstream subpanel board, the white neutral and the equipment grounds must not be bonded together. The neutral MUST "float " on insulators that prevent contact with the metal enclosure and any equipment grounds. Bonding these conductors is hazardous.

What is the Amps of the main service? You might want to think about a whole new bigger panel with lots of empty spaces for things that have not been invented yet.

 

[Gordo]

Marty;
His main panel is 200A and all but one single slot is in use. To increase the main panel, he would need a new mast, drop etc. $1000's.

 

[Doctorbass]

Drawing of panel on the left is not correct if it is the main panel. I copy:

When used as a service, the white neutral and the bare or green equipment grounds MUST be bonded together AND to the enclosure. This connection is essential to the safe operation of the grounding system

In a downstream subpanel board, the white neutral and the equipment grounds must not be bonded together. The neutral MUST "float " on insulators that prevent contact with the metal enclosure and any equipment grounds. Bonding these conductors is hazardous.

What is the Amps of the main service? You might want to think about a whole new bigger panel with lots of empty spaces for things that have not been invented yet.

The drawing is an exemple from google image that i found to avoid drawing everything.. the neutral and ground issue is only i that drawing. My main panel is ok. I dmight not have corrected all error of the drawing

I want to know if there is any problem regarding the electrical code and rules to have a 40A breaker feeding a subpanel with another 40A in it ?.. I mean.. it is useless i know but since it's the same current rating, the circuit is protected at 40A anyway? is there any reaction time or small delay that might affect the proper working condition of one of them since they might try to react at the same time?.. i mean some feedback loop effect or so...that might affect their own rating like a bouncing effect ?.. or is it simply the lower tolerance one that will trip first without any problem.. ?
I just want to ensure that it's "legal" according to the code.. or if we absolutly need to have one higher amp feeding the second in serie in the subpanel..

Sincerly i dont understand why the subpanel installation is necessary with a hot tub... having the hot tub connected direct to the main panel with the proper breaker would work.... so is there also something in the eletrical code that say it's necessary and why?

Doc

 

[GMUseless]

I might have misunderstood what you are wanting to do...but I did something similar to my panel to get a 220 outlet in the garage. From your drawing, the two spaces labeled "free" are actually on different phases. (I was thinking you had stated your free one's were on the same phase.) Just to clarify, in a standard breaker box, the phases are staggered from top to bottom, not left and right.

I had similar situation as you...with a full box. I simply replaced two of the breakers (say 13 and 15) with a twin or tandem breaker: that's two separate breakers that only takes up one slot. The disadvantage to this is you are changing the phase of one of the circuits...so put some thought into which one you choose. By the way, this is also a handy way to balance loads even when you don't need the extra space. As far as code, these things are perfectly legal...just don't exceed the total number of circuits stamped on your box (something like 8-16 in a small box.) Also, some boxes have tabs that prevent the use of twins.