Instant Start 18 fet Infineon Boards are here...

[Knuckles]

How about the NEW "WTF-116"

 

[methods]

"NEW 18 FET POS"

Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices.
Just like the 12 fet only more expensive, harder to build, less reliable, and bigger.... much, much bigger.


-methods

 

[steveo]

Hey peps!

ok..

So i brought out my new x5 and my new 18 fet board tonight after Placing 2 pieces of solder wick on the shunt that was included with kit methods supplied me .. I est that the controller is pulling around 75 amps range still .. and i loaded the shunt IMO ...

Methods .. do you have a photo of you crazy modified shunt ? here is mine..

http://tinypic.com/r/51r576/5

Also ..

I tired programing the controller again this evening .. I don't know if i'm the only one here .. but i don't notice any change in the controller when i modified the settings ...

I changed governed speed ---- nothing
i changed phase current to lower value ---- nothing
I have done the regen mod .. with 1k resistor on r12 .. .. I don't know if i have to activate it or anything .. but i don't feel anything when i'm off the thottle...like a resistance like i think regen will do ..
i changed the rated amps current ---- nothing
i set cruse control to 3 seconds ..---- nothing

the only com port that works wiht i use the keywin e-bike lab app is #4 ... nothing else will allow me to transfer ..

-steveo

 

[Knuckles]

For regen to activate you must jumper BK to GND

 

[steveo]

Hey

I thought we need more of a visual aid to wire the pig tails!

Is ebs nessasary if you have regen? .. regen will slow you down as it is right!


-steve

 

[methods]

Methods .. do you have a photo of you crazy modified shunt ? here is mine..

Ok... you have several things going on.
Too many Variables Steveo...

First thing is first. CALIBRATE your shunt. If you dont know where you are starting from then you cant know where you are going.
It will only take you 5 minutes.
Get the shunt down to a known value - say 250uOhms.
Then we can compare apples with apples.

(Mine, btw, looks similar though I covered the entire top of the shunt. I have more solder in the middle and less solder at the edges. My idea was to maximize bulk, minimize resistance, and retain airflow)

I tired programing the controller again this evening .. I don't know if i'm the only one here .. but i don't notice any change in the controller when i modified the settings ...

Then you are not getting it to program :wink:
Does the program bar go across and does the message box tell you that you were successful?
If it says you were successful, then it programmed.
If it says nothing or there is no change or it says failure then... no.

The best way to test if you are able to control the board via the software is to play with either the DC current (or even better) the global speed.

The software is not some sort of subtle effect... It is a linear, direct, concrete change in performance.

-methods

 

[steveo]

Methods .. do you have a photo of you crazy modified shunt ? here is mine..

Ok... you have several things going on.
Too many Variables Steveo...

First thing is first. CALIBRATE your shunt. If you dont know where you are starting from then you cant know where you are going.
It will only take you 5 minutes.
Get the shunt down to a known value - say 250uOhms.
Then we can compare apples with apples.

(Mine, btw, looks similar though I covered the entire top of the shunt. I have more solder in the middle and less solder at the edges. My idea was to maximize bulk, minimize resistance, and retain airflow)

I tired programing the controller again this evening .. I don't know if i'm the only one here .. but i don't notice any change in the controller when i modified the settings ...

Then you are not getting it to program :wink:
Does the program bar go across and does the message box tell you that you were successful?
If it says you were successful, then it programmed.
If it says nothing or there is no change or it says failure then... no.

The best way to test if you are able to control the board via the software is to play with either the DC current (or even better) the global speed.

The software is not some sort of subtle effect... It is a linear, direct, concrete change in performance.

-methods

Hey Methods,

ok .. i just played around with the programming today..

The programming is working ..i use com port #4 and is shows successful after flashing.. I just figured out the the "speed 1 & 3" on the right side don't actually do anything .. the "speed 2" controls the limited speed.... this is based on my testing .. my controller was stuck at 66% its now at 100% and the acceleration is better and also more top speed !!! do you know what the 100% with the symbols beside them mean?? .. not in english lol ...

also .. the cruise controll is not working .. is there any specific was i should activate it other then holding the throttle at the same position?

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

Steveo , are you saying that that controller is factory preset to 66% of max speed??????? and.. that we first need to program it to get the max speed possible?

Method, Knuckle? any idea?

I'm attempting to modify my second crystalyte 18 fets controller.. I just want to knowif i must reprogram it to get better power and speed max performances?

Doc

 

[steveo]

Steveo , are you saying that that controller is factory preset to 66% of max speed??????? and.. that we first need to program it to get the max speed possible?

Method, Knuckle? any idea?

I'm attempting to modify my second crystalyte 18 fets controller.. I just want to knowif i must reprogram it to get better power and speed max performances?

Doc

This was the issue with my controller .. hook up the usb .. and try to find out the default setting for "speed 2" .. .. I don't know how to get the default setting to show from the controller to be honest .. so i don't know how you would determine if its 100% power or not .. i would just start with methods default setting and modify from there .. check the top speed on freewheel and you will see the difference ..

I hop you had 100% throttle on the drag run .. didn't you change the main chip anyways to that of a crystalite .. i would imagine the crystalite being 100% throttle.

-steveo

 

[methods]

No Doc, the throttle is set to 100% by default.

There is no way to know what the default settings are other than to run the controller then reprogram it.
Steveo experienced poor performance on his first outing because his shunt resistance was too large.
I experienced no difference in top speed after programming my controllers so I am confident they come programmed to 100%

I assure you Doc that you dont NEED to program the controller to get maximum performance.
I would urge you to program it though so that you KNOW where you are starting at.

I think it is best to solder the shunt down to a point where it runs more current than you want and then roll the limit back in Software.

I am working on a new shunt programing method that can be done externally to the controller.
During assembly a "best shot" is taken to get the shunt resistance near 250uOhms
I then complete assembly.

A 10A current is run from one of the 3 phase wires, through the internal diodes of the 4110's, through the shunt, and back through the main system ground.
With the CA already installed all you have to do is monitor that current on the CA and on the ammeter.
Apply the percent difference formula, repeat twice, and you are done.

No more sketchy alligator clips etc.

I got this idea from Justin in another thread many moons ago.
The 10A comes from a 5V 20A supply with some inline resistance.

I hope to make it plug and play so that I can just plug it in, poke some numbers into excel, and be done.

-methods

 

[methods]

also .. the cruise controll is not working .. is there any specific was i should activate it other then holding the throttle at the same position?

-steveo

You need to hook pin CR to GND to enable Cruise Control.
I think you would want to use a switch, but I am not sure.

I have no idea how it works or what the values do.
Could be that cruise control will come on after 15 seconds of riding...
Could mean that cruise control will stay on for 15 seconds
I dont know how you turn it off - if it needs the brake or just a blip of the throttle.
I dont know how your turn it on.

Let us know when you find out - k?

Pin CR is easy to find though and there is a Ground right next to it.

-methods

 

[steveo]

also .. the cruise controll is not working .. is there any specific was i should activate it other then holding the throttle at the same position?

-steveo

You need to hook pin CR to GND to enable Cruise Control.
I think you would want to use a switch, but I am not sure.

I have no idea how it works or what the values do.
Could be that cruise control will come on after 15 seconds of riding...
Could mean that cruise control will stay on for 15 seconds
I dont know how you turn it off - if it needs the brake or just a blip of the throttle.
I dont know how your turn it on.

Let us know when you find out - k?

Pin CR is easy to find though and there is a Ground right next to it.

-methods

Hey methods ..

I don't remember if i programed the controller the first time i test it .. I can't remember .. you probably right though ..

ok ..
so a few things when i re-open my controller i will do

Place a switch between cr & ground - Cruise
place a switch between bk & ground - Enable regen
place a switch between EBS+ & ground - Enable Electrinic brake system right?
Shunt that freaking shunt completly!!! literly .. go a123's

Could you please confirm if thats all correct guys.

thanks again

-steveo

 

[methods]

You are best to get Geoff on the horn and ask him as I have not personally played with any of the advanced features.
Check out Knuckles threads - search for the "Regen and more" thread.
I know that the regen stuff has been beat to death...

Please take the time to calibrate your shunt

Also, be care full when you have that thing open.
I just spent 5 hours building up a board and shorted it out right at the end

-methods

 

[steveo]

You are best to get Geoff on the horn and ask him as I have not personally played with any of the advanced features.
Check out Knuckles threads - search for the "Regen and more" thread.
I know that the regen stuff has been beat to death...

Please take the time to calibrate your shunt

Also, be care full when you have that thing open.
I just spent 5 hours building up a board and shorted it out right at the end

-methods

Hey Methods..

I actually cut the trace of a bit where it hits the case to now theres no trace to contact with the sink

When you say calibrate your shunt, what do you mean? i don't have a c/a right now .. i sent it in because it wasn't reading properly again... I'm guessing the current at this point ... I might hook up a watts up metter to give me an idea of the current being drawn .. i'll see though..

so ya..

cut the trace a bit where it hits .. its the best think ..

-steveo

 

[methods]

... I'm guessing the current at this point ...

(methods shoots laser stink-eye at steveo) :?

(big sigh)

(little shrug)

(two shakes of the head)

-methods


P.S. To calibrate the shunt is to run a fixed current though the shunt to calculate its impedance so that you can enter that value into the CA so that it can display the correct current. Dare I ask what part of the CA is not reading right ??

 

[steveo]

... I'm guessing the current at this point ...

(methods shoots laser stink-eye at steveo) :?

(big sigh)

(little shrug)

(two shakes of the head)

-methods


P.S. To calibrate the shunt is to run a fixed current though the shunt to calculate its impedance so that you can enter that value into the CA so that it can display the correct current. Dare I ask what part of the CA is not reading right ??

lol...

you know i've had this explained to me by justin before .. but because i don't know how to do its 100% acuratly .. I use a watts up metter and compare the reading there to the c/a. I've gotten the readings about 99% accurate after a few trial & error with the shunt setting .... If i wire the watts up metter tommorw .. I'll tell you how many amps i'm pullin ..

-steveo

 

[methods]

Thank you.

Matching to the Watts Up is totally fine.
Would be easier with a fixed DC current but you can do it by trial and error.
The Percent Difference formula would make your life easier though...

Since I am such a "meter nerd" it gets my bowels all upset knowing that you are running 200V @ >??? Amps
I think I would have an anxiety attack if I had to ride my bike without a current meter.

-methods

 

[methods]

So it was a fine day Gentlemen (are there any ladies here?)

I managed to actually take some time and build a couple of controllers.
Learned quite a few things this time around...

* These two are completely conformal coated (well, almost completely )
* They have a 4 pin connector for USB programming (see custom programmer above controllers - no Ghetto switch required)
* I implemented the 3K base-mod on them
* One has 10AWG stranded on the traces and the other has a pair of solid 14AWG wires.
* Both have a 250uOhm shunt

Let me tell you... This took me all day.
If I were to actually sell these, with a warranty.... Dude... It would be expensive.
Even if I paid myself what Luke's mom makes collecting bottles at the dump they would still be outrageous. :?


So now I actually have (3) 100V 100A+ controllers for myself.
Does anyone know what that means ???

That means that I can finally finish my 100V 200A Dual motor cruiser bike
With only 1 motor I have broken 50MPH and the acceleration is good (though not fierce)

Alas - I can also finally set the wife's bike back up. I am getting tired of towing her in the trailer.

So I have the Project Mayhem Downhill RC bike with the Kelly in the works, 2wd insane Cruiser, and the busted-ass poor-person 9C walmart bike I pawned off on my wife :lol:

Life is good.

-methods

 

[liveforphysics]

Let me tell you... This took me all day.
If I were to actually sell these, with a warranty.... Dude... It would be expensive.
Even if I paid myself what Luke's mom makes collecting bottles at the dump they would still be outrageous. :?-methods

She may not make much sellng bottles, but she still makes more than what I pay your wife for "services".

 

[geoff57]

You are best to get Geoff on the horn and ask him as I have not personally played with any of the advanced features.
Check out Knuckles threads - search for the "Regen and more" thread.
I know that the regen stuff has been beat to death...

-methods

hi
ok I'll have a go explaining
Regen is controled by 2 factors,
1: the software settings as to how high a voltage the cut off point is , in the software this is a max of 75V not enough for 100v 18 fet controllers knuckles has worked out that a regen mod will be able to be done with no problem after I sent him some hi res pcb shots, it will require a rethink of the software lvc to make sure the lvc is still correct and the regen will have to be worked out but both of these problems are easy to solve.
2: the other factor that controlls regen is to actualy to switch it ON so that when you brake the regen circut activates, grounding BK switches on the regen circuit so when the brake
is pulled regen is applied at the same time( knuckles has a regne brake button as well, just a button wired to the Ebrake line, as a brake an uses that to brake a lot pure regen braking ).

cruise control: is activated by useing a momentary switch between CR and GND. the way it works is that you turn the throttle as far as you want to then press the cruise control switch you then let the throttle return to rest and the controller will ceep the motor going at throttle place you had it in UNTIL either the Ebrake is applied ,the throttle is turned or the cruise controll is presesd again, I think that the setting in the software on cruise controll is to do with how long you have to get the throttle to rest befor going into cruise control is ignored I am going to test this theory, at high speeds or in built up areas I would not advise cruise control.

The Ebrakes are on the EBS pads, a switch ebrale between EBS- and GND will activate the brakes as would the output of a hall ebrake though I have Yet to test hall brakes, EBS+ is for a +12 v brake light found in say a car or a motorbike on earlyer boards this worked as the transistor Q6 is required and was surface mounted on these boards it is not the transistor is missing there is just 3 holes very few of us use EBS+ so it does not matter that much but for those that need it sam has the fix.

Stevo you got the throttle posion compleatly wrong throttle output is to the SP pad, TB is to do with securety but that is all I know and TA is the input for a pedelec sensor.
I think Doc found somthing about what LED did I'm not sure.
p1 and p2 are for leds they will show what "gear" you are in p1 for speed 1 p2 for speed 3, now P3 can have 1 of 2 uses depending on how you set it in the software, it can be set to indecate that cruise controll is active or it can be set to a diffrent function as normal chineese to english translation was not up to the explnation so I will have to workit out myself but whatever it is it is anothe led indicator.

SL is for speed limit ground that and you get a limited speed BUT unlike the speed settings you get full torque until you reach your speed limit(this could be at only half throttle though)

DX3 is the reverse switch ground that to go in reverse only of use on direct drive motors as regen would be, in theory it should be X3 but there is a diode missing why i don't know there holes for it .
X1 and X2 grounded with a switch (only one never both at the same time so use a 3 way switch) activate speed 1 and speed 3 respectivly with neither grounded the default is used speed 2.

Geoff

 

[steveo]

You are best to get Geoff on the horn and ask him as I have not personally played with any of the advanced features.
Check out Knuckles threads - search for the "Regen and more" thread.
I know that the regen stuff has been beat to death...

-methods

hi
ok I'll have a go explaining
Regen is controled by 2 factors,
1: the software settings as to how high a voltage the cut off point is , in the software this is a max of 75V not enough for 100v 18 fet controllers knuckles has worked out that a regen mod will be able to be done with no problem after I sent him some hi res pcb shots, it will require a rethink of the software lvc to make sure the lvc is still correct and the regen will have to be worked out but both of these problems are easy to solve.
2: the other factor that controlls regen is to actualy to switch it ON so that when you brake the regen circut activates, grounding BK switches on the regen circuit so when the brake
is pulled regen is applied at the same time( knuckles has a regne brake button as well, just a button wired to the Ebrake line, as a brake an uses that to brake a lot pure regen braking ).

cruise control: is activated by useing a momentary switch between CR and GND. the way it works is that you turn the throttle as far as you want to then press the cruise control switch you then let the throttle return to rest and the controller will ceep the motor going at throttle place you had it in UNTIL either the Ebrake is applied ,the throttle is turned or the cruise controll is presesd again, I think that the setting in the software on cruise controll is to do with how long you have to get the throttle to rest befor going into cruise control is ignored I am going to test this theory, at high speeds or in built up areas I would not advise cruise control.

The Ebrakes are on the EBS pads, a switch ebrale between EBS- and GND will activate the brakes as would the output of a hall ebrake though I have Yet to test hall brakes, EBS+ is for a +12 v brake light found in say a car or a motorbike on earlyer boards this worked as the transistor Q6 is required and was surface mounted on these boards it is not the transistor is missing there is just 3 holes very few of us use EBS+ so it does not matter that much but for those that need it sam has the fix.

Stevo you got the throttle posion compleatly wrong throttle output is to the SP pad, TB is to do with securety but that is all I know and TA is the input for a pedelec sensor.
I think Doc found somthing about what LED did I'm not sure.
p1 and p2 are for leds they will show what "gear" you are in p1 for speed 1 p2 for speed 3, now P3 can have 1 of 2 uses depending on how you set it in the software, it can be set to indecate that cruise controll is active or it can be set to a diffrent function as normal chineese to english translation was not up to the explnation so I will have to workit out myself but whatever it is it is anothe led indicator.

SL is for speed limit ground that and you get a limited speed BUT unlike the speed settings you get full torque until you reach your speed limit(this could be at only half throttle though)

DX3 is the reverse switch ground that to go in reverse only of use on direct drive motors as regen would be, in theory it should be X£ but there is a diode missing why i don't know there holes for it .
X1 and X2 grounded with a switch (only one never both at the same time so use a 3 way switch) activate speed 1 and speed 3 respectivly with neither grounded the default is used speed 2.

Geoff

Hey Geoff

Thank you for the detailed info!!

First off Re-gen
I have done a 1kohm mod to allow just over 90v regen! .. I am using 24s of a123 which fresh off the charger is 88.8v! I have place a momentary switch between between the Brk & ground (Near the Cruise controll). I have made sure its enabled in the software.. I tried #2 & 0. I had nothing work! ... I really want to see this feature working!!

Cruise control
Wohhoo .. I got this working .. And its sweet!!! I set it to like 5 seconds in the software .. hold the button and throttle steady .. and it activates... It will deactivate as you said .. if i give it throttle or .. if you trip the 5v brake .. which i didn't try

Ebs
Ok .. You mention to place a momentary switch between ebs- & ground to trip the "Electronic Braking System" .. .. Is this like a resistive braking that fetcher & ggoodrum came up with a while back using a rectifier?.. Could you please specify what part i could install in Q6.. ( I have a ton of parts controllers.. i hope i could find something usefull in there).

throttle
I'm sorry .. i made a mistake .. i am using the sp pin for throttle ! :?

Led's
This was straight forward .. so far i've see just p1 light up when i switch to speed 1!

SL?
I don't have this pin on my board? .. I have "SLA" though.. is that what you meant?

Dx3
So this is reverse .. I didn't bother as per i won't be riding backwards on my bike anytime soon lol

Speed mode
Ok .. i think i misunderstood what you wrote here .. or i did ..
your info kind of did not make sence .. you mentioned that default its in speed mode 2, this is x2 then right? .... if i trip x1 with ground thats speed 1.. I tested and yes it is .. and so does p1 led light up!; if a trip x3 with ground shouldn't that speed three?, ( no p3 led .. and it went full throttle!) .. I setup my switch for x1 & x3 ... and not x2 because its default ...( p2 does not light up for speed 2 ) make sence?

p.s. Methods... I just soldered in 3 pieces of your braid over the shunt with a crap load of solder .. (the most i've ever put on a shunt) ... I pulled 132amp @ 79.2v or 10454watts or 14hp! .. I'm about 7hp away from doc .. I'm on a 24" 5304 though

thanks
-steveo

 

[geoff57]

hi
ok stevo a few tips
Regen
the mod was ok I think Knuckles knows more about the mod than me, I have not had DD motors for long only been working with geared so I never concentrated on regen with an X5 and a 409 I will have to now. As far nas the switch is concerned if you want to be able to switch off regen as by putting a switch in there you may want to you need a on of switch not a momentary switch, but I think you have got the whole braking system wired up wrong, what you want is to push a button and the regen is activated charging your battery and braking the bike, the way YOU wired it up just activates the regen circuitry so when the Ebrake is applyed the regen is applyed as well and since you used a momentary switch it was on then off.
Regen is used in conjuntion with the EBS or Ebrake system.The EBS or Electronic Braking System pads that are connected to ground are just a switch that stop the motor while the switch is closed most often found fitted to brake levers (EBS+ is as I said before used with a 12v brake light supply but the prisiple is the same) the strength of regen is controlled in the software and then the yser can choose when to piggyback the regen signel onto the Ebrake signel by grounding BK. from what I can gess of your setup I think you will want somthing like knuckles has he has his BKlinked to groung permantly(this is an option) then on the handlebars he has his standard Ebrake levers with a microswitch in them connected to the Ebrake EBS to GND connector, PLUS he has an extra push button momentary switch on the handlebars that is also connected to the Ebrake connector, very often he uses just the push button to stop him and saves on brake pads as well !!

before I go further I have just relised the board pics that knuckles posted are NOT for the 18 fet.
It is my fault since knuckles concentraits on 12 fet controllers and I now have the 12 fet board with the new chip I sent him some very high res pics he has posted thinking that the two boards are arranged the same I will send him some very high res pics of the 18 fet as well to rectify this.

SL
SL is on the board I had a look SLA is used with the sensorless board to limit throttle voltage just enough so the motors don't go crazy this does act as a speed limiter though.

stevo if you have reprogramed the board with the software please send me a copy of the .asv file then i can see if you have made any settings that could be better for you.

Geoff

 

[steveo]

hi
ok stevo a few tips
Regen
the mod was ok I think Knuckles knows more about the mod than me, I have not had DD motors for long only been working with geared so I never concentrated on regen with an X5 and a 409 I will have to now. As far nas the switch is concerned if you want to be able to switch off regen as by putting a switch in there you may want to you need a on of switch not a momentary switch, but I think you have got the whole braking system wired up wrong, what you want is to push a button and the regen is activated charging your battery and braking the bike, the way YOU wired it up just activates the regen circuitry so when the Ebrake is applyed the regen is applyed as well and since you used a momentary switch it was on then off.
Regen is used in conjuntion with the EBS or Ebrake system.The EBS or Electronic Braking System pads that are connected to ground are just a switch that stop the motor while the switch is closed most often found fitted to brake levers (EBS+ is as I said before used with a 12v brake light supply but the prisiple is the same) the strength of regen is controlled in the software and then the yser can choose when to piggyback the regen signel onto the Ebrake signel by grounding BK. from what I can gess of your setup I think you will want somthing like knuckles has he has his BKlinked to groung permantly(this is an option) then on the handlebars he has his standard Ebrake levers with a microswitch in them connected to the Ebrake EBS to GND connector, PLUS he has an extra push button momentary switch on the handlebars that is also connected to the Ebrake connector, very often he uses just the push button to stop him and saves on brake pads as well !!

before I go further I have just relised the board pics that knuckles posted are NOT for the 18 fet.
It is my fault since knuckles concentraits on 12 fet controllers and I now have the 12 fet board with the new chip I sent him some very high res pics he has posted thinking that the two boards are arranged the same I will send him some very high res pics of the 18 fet as well to rectify this.

SL
SL is on the board I had a look SLA is used with the sensorless board to limit throttle voltage just enough so the motors don't go crazy this does act as a speed limiter though.

stevo if you have reprogramed the board with the software please send me a copy of the .asv file then i can see if you have made any settings that could be better for you.

Geoff

Hey Geoff

First as you requested

"
5:EB218
160
57.0
57.0
1.0
99
0:Switch Mode
30
100
60
1.0
3.0
1:Only Fake Indicate
1:Comm GND
2:
35
75
0:Low
0:NO
0:Fast
0:Cruising Indicate
0:120 Degree
"

OK ..

so in order to activate re-gen all i need to do is permantly short bk & ground to (enable re-gen) ... Then just trip the 5v brake and my regen should kick in .. its that right? .. I'm not concerned using the 12+ ebs brake light

-steveo

 

[geoff57]

hi
you almost have it the right facts but maybe the wrong namesthere is no +5v brake there never has been the pad to use is EBS- put your momentary switch between that and GND and when you press the button the motor will go into regen and stop.

stevo you were VERY lucky with messing with X3 that should be the reverse pad but due to the lack of a diode it does nothing it is isolated if you look on your board that or take my word for it.
you are trying to use all 3 speed levels in switch mode you use X1 for speed 1 and P1 will come on use X2 for speed 3 and P2 will come on and with neither x1 or x2 grounded speed 2 will be used and neither of the leds will be working

Geoff

 

[John in CR]

Geoff,

A big thank you for that simplified summary of connections for regen, the different speed controls, etc. I need to dig my open 15 fet board out and give it a go. Maybe I'll get lucky and the software and board are set properly for regen with a 60V nominal pack.

John