Interrogate BMS
- Thread starter johnc46
- Start date
mjcrow
10 mW
Hi johnc46, do you mean integrating the BMS in your pack or interrogating the BMS in your pack, because the latter involves shining a bright light in its face and sleep deprivation!
mjcrow
10 mW
OK john, what BMS are you talking about, and what batteries are you using? How low are the temperatures and how long will they be stored for?
NeilP
1 GW
Maybe he does mean Interrogate..maybe it has or he thinks it has a data logger of some sort?
Kin
10 kW
Aren't BMSs quite the set of resistors? Interrogating them is no easy task.
Jk, Assuming you just mean what information BMS track, I can start:
[Edit: Actually I have no idea why I started. Until people know what you are asking, speculating on what you're asking is kind of pointless].
1) Individual cell voltages. For a "14s7p" pack, they will be tracking 14 voltages.
....
2) Post charge, balance cells by discharging higher voltage cells [typical] while pack remains on a trickle-charge.
3) Monitoring Current entering battery pack through BMS
4) Limiting current exiting battery pack through BMS
I don't know that Ebike BMSs check temperature. I think laptops might be concerned about that, but Ebike BMS don't need much more
Jk, Assuming you just mean what information BMS track, I can start:
[Edit: Actually I have no idea why I started. Until people know what you are asking, speculating on what you're asking is kind of pointless].
1) Individual cell voltages. For a "14s7p" pack, they will be tracking 14 voltages.
....
2) Post charge, balance cells by discharging higher voltage cells [typical] while pack remains on a trickle-charge.
3) Monitoring Current entering battery pack through BMS
4) Limiting current exiting battery pack through BMS
I don't know that Ebike BMSs check temperature. I think laptops might be concerned about that, but Ebike BMS don't need much more
Ok guys yes I do mean interrogate, I have an Ebike with an Li.ion battery and a possible BMS fault. The manufacturers say they can interrogate the BMS system to make sure I have not abused the battery ie. stored it in below 0 degrees etc. so I am asking the question can this be done, I have no knowledge of these things and I don't want them telling me that it's my fault, the battery only 6 months old, still under guarantee, and has had about 50 charge cycles. Hope you can help. John
Do I need to provide any more information or is what I say enough.
Do I need to provide any more information or is what I say enough.
Kin
10 kW
I think what you said makes sense now. Kind of how cellphone manufacturers use cromium paper that oxidizes if you've left it in water, so they can say "noop, water damage" [Even though humidity is enough to cause that!].
Anyway, I've never heard of manufacturers installing that kind of information. It will help to know where you bought the battery, but in all likelihood, they have no way of knowing if you left it below temperature. That said, they could still claim they know. Some people are shady sellers.
Anyway, I've never heard of manufacturers installing that kind of information. It will help to know where you bought the battery, but in all likelihood, they have no way of knowing if you left it below temperature. That said, they could still claim they know. Some people are shady sellers.
Kin
10 kW
If your BMS is not covered, if you take a picture of it and upload it here or someplace like photobucket.com, then link here, we can give a better guess.
Supposing you have a very special BMS, it could have some temperature control and datalogging system. But, again, I kind of doubt it. Reason why I asked "where you bought it" is because I think between one of the few people who have looked at this thread, chances are if the seller is some high tech seller which would include a particularly complicated BMS with datalogging, they would be known to forum users here.
Supposing you have a very special BMS, it could have some temperature control and datalogging system. But, again, I kind of doubt it. Reason why I asked "where you bought it" is because I think between one of the few people who have looked at this thread, chances are if the seller is some high tech seller which would include a particularly complicated BMS with datalogging, they would be known to forum users here.
NeilP
1 GW
Maybe there is a reason for not telling us, and if that is so , then no need to say, but I thingk we wold be interested to know the make of battery/BMS / bike. Then maybe there is someone else on here that has heard of that particular make and has experience of them.
So if there is n particular reason to keep it a secret, let us know
So if there is n particular reason to keep it a secret, let us know
The name on the battery Is Phylion XH370-10J, the bike is an Alien Aurora http://www.alienbikes.co.uk/page7.htm
the BMS I have no information on, it is built into the battery case which is sealed and as it's under warranty I don't want to open it up.
the BMS I have no information on, it is built into the battery case which is sealed and as it's under warranty I don't want to open it up.
Spacey
100 kW
Best advice I can give to check a BMS is to parallel wire up another connector alongside the balance cable so you can plug in a Cellog 8S and then just charge up the battery and see what each cell is doing.
NeilP
1 GW
And I would have thought that if it was a sealed unit then you would not be able to get to the BMS wires anyway.
How are Alien Ocean actually planning to 'interrogate ' the BMS? do they want you to send it back or have they asked you do something with it..plug in to a PC via USB.download something from it and send it to them? All sounds a bit advanced to have on a £1000 bike. Might expect something fancy like that on a Tesla or similar, but not on a bike surely?
YOu might want to try posting this on the Pedlecs U forum, there is probably a lot more experience on production bikes there thn will be found here
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/forum.php
How are Alien Ocean actually planning to 'interrogate ' the BMS? do they want you to send it back or have they asked you do something with it..plug in to a PC via USB.download something from it and send it to them? All sounds a bit advanced to have on a £1000 bike. Might expect something fancy like that on a Tesla or similar, but not on a bike surely?
YOu might want to try posting this on the Pedlecs U forum, there is probably a lot more experience on production bikes there thn will be found here
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/forum.php
It is certainly possible to have datalogging on a BMS if it is run by an MCU, or some of the dedicated BMS chips. Many of the laptop battery BMS chips i investigated 2-3 years ago can do this, either to internal memory or to an external serial EEPROM. Most are not USB-readable, but instead use a dedicated 2-wire interface or similar, thru the regular battery port, to tell the laptop what the battery condition is.
It's much less likely that a typical ebike will have anything like that, as they seem to be made for lowest cost rather than for protecting the company's warranty-coverage interest, leaving it to a human to determine whatever has gone wrong and under what conditions. Usually the BMS is just made to keep teh battery from ever being used outside of the conditions the warranty would cover, so if indeed the conditions were exceeded it would just shutdown until power is cycled. If it allows the conditions to be exceeded then usually either it's badly designed or faulty, and the warranty should cover it's replacement anyway (in my opinion, not necessarily the company's
).
If it did have logging circuits, they may not be accessible outside the case, as there is no reason for htem to be; they're only for factory use so only the factory has to have access. No reason to spend more money on an external connector, waterproofing, etc., for a connector the user cannot even use (since it is likely it would require special equipment and software to communicate with it anyway).
Most ebike BMSs do not have anything to interrogate, though.
FWIW, if the idea of connecting up the celllog or other cell-level monitor up and determining state of charge on there is daunting, I expect that reverse-engineering the BMS to find out if it has any datalogging, and then figuring out it's protocols, etc., finding or creating software to read them and their data, and so on, is all likely to be far beyond your desire to try.
But I also expect that in order to do either of those things, you'd have to open the battery pack up to get to the BMS connections inside, and if that voids the warranty, you would not want to do so either way.
It's much less likely that a typical ebike will have anything like that, as they seem to be made for lowest cost rather than for protecting the company's warranty-coverage interest, leaving it to a human to determine whatever has gone wrong and under what conditions. Usually the BMS is just made to keep teh battery from ever being used outside of the conditions the warranty would cover, so if indeed the conditions were exceeded it would just shutdown until power is cycled. If it allows the conditions to be exceeded then usually either it's badly designed or faulty, and the warranty should cover it's replacement anyway (in my opinion, not necessarily the company's
).If it did have logging circuits, they may not be accessible outside the case, as there is no reason for htem to be; they're only for factory use so only the factory has to have access. No reason to spend more money on an external connector, waterproofing, etc., for a connector the user cannot even use (since it is likely it would require special equipment and software to communicate with it anyway).
Most ebike BMSs do not have anything to interrogate, though.
FWIW, if the idea of connecting up the celllog or other cell-level monitor up and determining state of charge on there is daunting, I expect that reverse-engineering the BMS to find out if it has any datalogging, and then figuring out it's protocols, etc., finding or creating software to read them and their data, and so on, is all likely to be far beyond your desire to try.
But I also expect that in order to do either of those things, you'd have to open the battery pack up to get to the BMS connections inside, and if that voids the warranty, you would not want to do so either way.
NeilP
1 GW
johnc46 said:
Not that I can help with this particular problem, but am interested none the less, and am asking questions that may help in finding a solution.
In regard to your quote above, do you actually mean the manufacturers Phylion or is it Jim at Alien Ocean that is saying he can interrogate the battery
999zip999
100 TW
Not speaking for Jim but he ment he would just test the battery and give the bms a look at.
NeilP
1 GW
Be interested to see that, just out of curiosity really.
Was it Alien Ocean that are going to do the ' interrogation or the battery people,Phylion?
Was it Alien Ocean that are going to do the ' interrogation or the battery people,Phylion?
The quote is in the Alien manual that comes with the bike, so I assume that it would be done by Alien. I have being doing some research on google and have found quite a lot on what is called a BMS "History chip" which logs charge cycles, temp,etc.
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