Is an automobile-based society sustainable ?

[spinningmagnets]

Why so much hate for the rich? Aren't wealthy early adopters why we have Tesla? and soon they will be producing a less expensive 4-door? If "the rich" can buy as many rationed fuel credits as they want, and pay as much road tolls as they want...who really cares? If a rich Ferrari owner pays top dollar for a fuel ration credit from an E-biker so he can buy a lithium battery pack to replace his SLAs...isn't that a "win-win" situation?

Recently New York City was getting less tax income because the economy was down. They decided to raise the taxes on those "evil rich" so they will pay their "fair share". Some of them moved to Florida, so in the end NYC got even less tax income. If the fed raises tax on the filthy rich (so moving to another state won't change their tax status) many will move to the Caribbean (such as Belize, Costa Rica, and the British VI).

Matt sold an over-the-top e-bike for $6,000, should it have had a 10% Value Added Tax (VAT)?,then use that money for Bafang subsidies to poor E-bikers? What if that situation led to Matt selling fewer upscale ebikes, and some of the subsidized Bafangs showed up on EBAY?

When Edward Kennedy rammed through a 10% luxury tax on boats over $100K, the "evil rich" began buying boats in Majorca Spain and having them stored there too. The boats are tied up to the mansion during the sailing season, and half the year, Europeans sail them to Europe to store, repair, and maintain them. Half the small shipyards up the US Atlantic coast closed down, and many blue-collar families who repaired and maintained rich peoples boats permanently lost their careers.

Be careful what you wish for...the law of un-intended consequences is a bitch.

 

[Miles]

what pisses me off about gasoline and oil is that we are sucking it all dry in an instant of history and the stuff is so goddaamn useful as a dense and easily transportable energy source but even more valuable as the plastics which make everything light and strong and durable.

Yes, this "pisses me off", too......

 

[spinningmagnets]

Pumping up liquid oil and running it through a simple heat/distilliation process is the "low-hanging-fruit" of mobile fuels. I do confess a certain frustration when I see wastefulness. During WWII, whenever there were shortages of raw materials, alternative feed stocks were explored. Where-ever possible, any plastic product was made from bio-feedstocks, such as corn/soybean oil.

Social engineering runs against my spirit, but when fuels become more expensive, it seems to be the only thing that gets people changing their choices.

In the brush country around Southern California, the fire marshal ordered that homeowners clear away brush for 100' around their home, and federal ESA officials ordered that no brush be cleared so as to not damage the fragile ecosystem of the Stevens kangaroo mouse (slightly different than your run-of-the-mill kangaroo mouse apparently)

One resident cleared the brush (risking a federal fine). Several years later, a lightning-started brushfire decimated the area, and the home with cleared brush was the only one to survive. After the brushfire, the SK-mice were seen to come out of their holes to look for seeds.

In the aftermath of the Katrina hurricane/flood, I have only seen one house that was rebuilt as a two-story, and the lower half is a concrete garage specifically made to survive extended flooding. I'm sure there are others, but clearly the majority are not.

E-bikers who live close to their jobs are on the leading edge of social change. I am surrounded by people who live beyond their means in order to have things they don't need, all the while ignoring reasonable precautionary choices. Many years ago (before 9-11 at the world trade center) I am on record as having stated that if I had a job in one of those skyscrapers, I would keep a parachute under my desk...

 

[dogman dan]

Gotta agree with that one, learning to base jump if you worked in a skyscraper. But I'd be on the outside washing the windows. Desk job ugggh.

I remember how the boat tax on the rich backfired. All kinds of blue collar dudes lost their jobs in florida and california building boats.

Rattioning, like coupons would be adored by the Mob, I bet the wise guys were all over it during WW II. Now that everybody pays for gas with a plastic card, maybe your Orwellian govt ID card could be used to set the price of gas. But then guys would be getting card jacked for their low price gas ID. Again with the mob, the rich would buy up the stolen gas ID's. At least you couldn't export filling the ol humm vee so easy as the boat building.

I think though, that automobile based society is sustainable. It's the society that drives a one ton truck all month so the guy can pulll his boat to the lake 200 miles away once a month society that isn't sustainable. Stuff like that is what needs to be pooled. Driving around in efficient cars is not so bad, but the poor of course , can only afford a 15 year old gas hog.

 

[morph999]

Do you think most rich people really earned what they got or do you think most these days lucked out ? From my point of view, I tend to think most rich people lucked into it. If you look at Dana White, he just knew the right people. He got lucky and met Chuck Liddell and became his manager and he knew Lorenzo Fertitta from high school. He just happen to know some multi-millionaires. What is the percentage of people do you think these days who have 1 million dollars or more who earned it? I think actors and actresses earned it of course. Becoming a movie star is hard work. Stock traders of course earned it. People who started businesses earned it.

Now if you look at the owner of Papa John's, this guy lucked into it because his father started a pizza business so he just took over. That's what I call lucking into wealth because he didn't start the business, he just took it over from his father. His father did most of the hard work.

Charlie Sheen did not earn his money. His father was an actor and so he got into it. He lucked into wealth. Any child of a movie star lucked into wealth. If Charlie Sheen tried to make it without his father, he'd most likely fail. He would have failed before he even got started which is how most of them fail. Most of them do several interviews for acting jobs and it's so tough that they give up.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Halliburton is one of those global companies that is constantly under investigation for government contracts fraud. They moved their headquarters from Texas to Kuwait, and everyone who was slamming them suddenly asked "why are you leaving"?

I've been robbed by poor people, but I don't think all poor people are bad (I've met kind and generous poor people) Madoff is a huge thief, but I also do not believe that all rich people are crooks. The question for me is, if we make life harder for rich people, and then a lot of them move to the Caribbean or Monaco, how are the lives of the US poor and middle-class better?

If my dad puts his house in a family trust ($300K?) and then he dies, I can get control of the house without paying a will probate and the inheritance tax (45%?) . Did I just "earn" 300K ? It all depends on who's ox is being gored (as the saying goes).

You see a guy in a HUMMER towing a big boat to the lake in the middle of the week, and you think he is a wasteful bastard who didn't "earn" his money because you know he inherited his dads business? Have you sent a bicycle to a destitute family in Ghana or a water-purification device, perhaps a mosquito net so the kids wont get malaria (I haven't) ? We are rich compared to them, and you don't let anyone tell you how to live your life...

 

[deronmoped]

I think the idea that we will run out of oil is for people who do not go look for it.

“There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils. All types of bedrock can serve as reservoirs of oil,” says Vladimir Kutcherov, who adds that this is true of land areas that have not yet been prospected for these energy sources.

According to Vladimir Kutcherov, the findings are a clear indication that the oil supply is not about to end, which researchers and experts in the field have long feared.

He adds that there is no way that fossil oil, with the help of gravity or other forces, could have seeped down to a depth of 10.5 kilometers in the state of Texas, for example, which is rich in oil deposits. As Vladimir Kutcherov sees it, this is further proof, alongside his own research findings, of the genesis of these energy sources – that they can be created in other ways than via fossils. This has long been a matter of lively discussion among scientists.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910084259.htm

New Sources Of Biofuel To Take Pressure Off Traditional Crops

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090909203140.htm

Deron.

 

[deronmoped]

Do you think most rich people really earned what they got or do you think most these days lucked out ? From my point of view, I tend to think most rich people lucked into it. If you look at Dana White, he just knew the right people. He got lucky and met Chuck Liddell and became his manager and he knew Lorenzo Fertitta from high school. He just happen to know some multi-millionaires. What is the percentage of people do you think these days who have 1 million dollars or more who earned it? I think actors and actresses earned it of course. Becoming a movie star is hard work. Stock traders of course earned it. People who started businesses earned it.

Now if you look at the owner of Papa John's, this guy lucked into it because his father started a pizza business so he just took over. That's what I call lucking into wealth because he didn't start the business, he just took it over from his father. His father did most of the hard work.

Charlie Sheen did not earn his money. His father was an actor and so he got into it. He lucked into wealth. Any child of a movie star lucked into wealth. If Charlie Sheen tried to make it without his father, he'd most likely fail. He would have failed before he even got started which is how most of them fail. Most of them do several interviews for acting jobs and it's so tough that they give up.

I took a quick look because I believed most people earn their wealth.

How Do Wealthy People Start Out?
The great majority of wealthy people started businesses and built them from the ground up. In the 19th century, fortunes were built by people like Andrew Carnegie, Thomas Edison, J. P. Morgan and others. All the names are well known in Sri Lanka too. In the 20th century, especially in the last few years, businesses and fortunes alike have been built by people like Bill Gates, Warren buffet, Ross Perot and Sam Walton. Each of these people started with nothing and succeeded in building a business from scratch.

The second major source of self-made millionaires in world is senior executives. 10% of the self-made millionaires are men and women who have joined large corporations and worked with those corporations for many years. They rose to positions of seniority, were paid extremely well, given stock options, profit sharing and as a result of holding onto the money, they became millionaires. So it is not a must for you to start your own business in order to become a millionaire. Lee Iacoca of Chrysler Corporation was paid $26.7 million dollars as a bond in a single year. People who like to study hard , Complete at least 2 degrees, Complete professional exams like CIMA ,get a job and work hard to climb the cooperate ladder can end up being richer than a businessmen. So if you are not in to business, just concentrate on what you like. Focus on the one thing you know. And try to improve it all the time.

The third source of self-made millionaires in world is doctors, lawyers and other professionals. Men and women who become very, very good at what they do and rise to the top of their professions are eventually paid, very, very well. The top five percent in every field earn 10 and 20 times as much as the average person in that field.

The fourth major source of self-made millionaires is sales people and sales consultants. Fully five percent of self-made millionaires are men and women who are the top salespeople in their fields. They never started their own businesses. They never went to college or university to get professional degrees. They just became very good salespeople for their products or services and were paid very good money. The secret was that they then invested the money conservatively and held on to it. So if you think you do not qualify for other categories here is your chance. Be a good sales man. Have you ever heard the story of world's best sales person. He is an auto dealer. An no 01 Single person responsible for sell most cars in the whole world. I will write about him in a different post on a later day.

Here are two things you can do to put this information into action as soon as possible:

First, decide what it is that you really enjoy doing and then throw your whole heart into doing it extremely well.

Second, think what you are doing right now going to lead you to financial independence, or do you have to begin making some serious changes in your work and in your life? Whatever your answer is, take action on it immediately.

Deron.

 

[spinningmagnets]

You will always have someone in society who is well-off for some reason. If GM is forced to stop making any vehicle that is over 3.0 liters displacement (for example), rich people will just buy a foreign-made vehicle that suits them. Lamborghini makes a vehicle very similar to the Hummer (LM002). Is it better for GM if rich people buy a "Hummer" from Italy?

If the price of fuel doubles, it will really hurt millions of poor and middle-class citizens, but the rich will just be annoyed, rather than cutting back their fuel consumption. Oprah will still fly her private jet, as will Travolta.

When fuel prices go up, it is frustrating to see rich people flying private jets, while at the same time some independent truck-drivers are going out of business. I believe we are headed for big changes, but the car in some form will still be with us.

Pic is Travoltas mansion with his Boeing 707 and his Lear,...conspicuous consumption ,John?

 

[dak664]

Here is how I see it: Suppose I get a great deal of enjoyment by watching corn burn. Since I am wealthy and can outbid others for corn, I have the effect of raising the market price and creating local scarcities, meaning you and a million others can no longer afford your more modest enjoyments of corn flakes every morning. The pollution from my corn fires has everyone else panting as they bicycle to work. Should the rest of you be able to restrain my corn-burning enjoyment?

Although "Let them eat cake" was probably an invention of Rousseau and not said by Marie Antoinette, the public called her "Madame Deficit" for her conspicuous consumption and beheaded her after the French Revolution.

 

[gogo]

Here is how I see it: Suppose I get a great deal of enjoyment by watching corn burn. Since I am wealthy and can outbid others for corn, I have the effect of raising the market price and creating local scarcities, meaning you and a million others can no longer afford your more modest enjoyments of corn flakes every morning. The pollution from my corn fires has everyone else panting as they bicycle to work. Should the rest of you be able to restrain my corn-burning enjoyment?

A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[jag]

Here is how I see it: Suppose I get a great deal of enjoyment by watching corn burn. Since I am wealthy and can outbid others for corn, I have the effect of raising the market price and creating local scarcities, meaning you and a million others can no longer afford your more modest enjoyments of corn flakes every morning. The pollution from my corn fires has everyone else panting as they bicycle to work. Should the rest of you be able to restrain my corn-burning enjoyment?

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I don't know if the analogy was intended, but the corn burning is already ongoing, and the price of corn tortillas for the poor in the south has doubled. (per articles in Newsweek and Economist). Of course it is not burn in the field, but the amount of corn used for corn based ethanol has caused corn prices to increase. So in effect, the burning of corn ethanol for a single SUV trip to the shopping mall could have fed thousands of southern and mexican poor. While alternative fuels are good, they also have side effect, and an amount of restrain and changing consumption patterns is likely needed in addition to looking for alternative technologies.

 

[deronmoped]

You will always have someone in society who is well-off for some reason. If GM is forced to stop making any vehicle that is over 3.0 liters displacement (for example), rich people will just buy a foreign-made vehicle that suits them. Lamborghini makes a vehicle very similar to the Hummer (LM002). Is it better for GM if rich people buy a "Hummer" from Italy?

If the price of fuel doubles, it will really hurt millions of poor and middle-class citizens, but the rich will just be annoyed, rather than cutting back their fuel consumption. Oprah will still fly her private jet, as will Travolta.

When fuel prices go up, it is frustrating to see rich people flying private jets, while at the same time some independent truck-drivers are going out of business. I believe we are headed for big changes, but the car in some form will still be with us.

Pic is Travoltas mansion with his Boeing 707 and his Lear,...conspicuous consumption ,John?

You own a 707 and a Lear, then get cheap on the patio covering them, heck I would have a hanger built.

Deron.

 

[morph999]

when I wrote that thing about rich getting lucky. I was full of it. I've been feeling kind of weird lately and writing things that don't make sense. I think most people got rich through hard work. That post I made was ridiculous nonsense. Sorry.

 

[dogman dan]

I was just about to say that. All the rich people I know worked their asses off, 60-80 hours a week for a lifetime. I could never stand that kind of schedule for long.

I don't object to the Hummer itself. Though too broke to do any flying this year, I own a one ton double cab pickup and a hot air balloon. For an hours fun, I'd burn 30 gallons of propane and 15 gallons of gas in the truck chasing the balloon. The big truck was needed since up to 12 people might be along for the fun. Really, if I got 6 people a flight, the cost per person was not so bad, mabye comparable to a boat on the lake, also enjoyed by a group.

The point I was trying to make is the guy with a big v8 vehicle who drives in circles in town for weeks because he uses a boat seldomly. He has the money, obviously, so he should have a second vehicle that uses less resources for the rest of the week.

A working truck is another story. When I was a foreman for a remodel company, everywhere I went I needed to carry everything. So I drove around town from job to job carrying all framing carpentry tools, all trim carpentry tools, sheetrock tools, painting tools, roof repair tools, and a 16 foot trailer forremodling debris. I got about 5 mpg in that setup.

Lastly, hangers for a 707 barely exist, and are used only when the thing is being maintenanced. Lots of seldom used jets are parked in the mojave desert. Don't knock my hero John though, he's just about the only celb that maintains a 707 endorsement on his pilot certificate. Others just ride in the back and get drunk, or if they are pilots, they sure haven't busted thier ass as much as John has with his pilot proficiency. Getting a pilot certificate is harder than you may think. Take getting a drivers licence and multiply by 100. Multiply by 100 again for a 707.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I wasnt knocking you morph, Most rich DO something, whether its evil or good, however your point is somewhat valid as there are many examples of rich people who have inherited big money (Paris hilton, camera-whore) she is famous for being famous.

But, if I had big money dropped into my lap, I wouldnt want any person or government telling ME how to spend it, or how I shouldnt be allowed to spend it. For most of us, cars are here to stay, but things will be different. Expensive fuel, smaller cars, perhaps more EV's and hybrids...of course, the rich will still do what the rich do, but they dont really bother me with their antics or wasteful consumption. I'm too busy planning my families future and alternatives.

 

[Anonymous]

Is it possible for a human being to get behind the wheel of an automobile without turning into something else? I can even see it happening to myself after not driving for some time, I become impatient, aggressive, my thinking changes, my attitude changes. I'm talking out loud to people who can't hear me. I'm calling people idiots. I'm letting my blood pressure rise. Profanities emerge from my consciousness. Something happens to people when they drive automobiles. They turn into Mr Hyde. And they're not paying attention.

People lose their minds when they get behind the wheel
Lyrics and music by the bluesdusters. That a youtube AudioSwap btw, not a copyright violation.

 

[Arlo1]

California alone has more cars and people than all of Canada. I don't think an auto based society is sustainable.

Don't quite understand what you are trying to say?

 

[Anonymous]

.

 

[Arlo1]

Have you driven there? Picture a massive 6 lane highway that is dead stopped. Sometimes just a bit of weather can cause this! Nothing we would bat an eye at in canada.
Drop 30+ million cars on one state and you can see how it's not sustainable. It is normal for a freeway to be more like a parking lot in california, happens every day.

Yeh I see what you are saying. And for the most part you are right about us canadians, but I seen it get pretty bad here too, one year I was in calgary a cab driver smashed another driver in the snow and got out yelling its not my fault I have never driven in snow before, I used to live in edmonton a little south of whyte ave. and had to comute to st.albert for work every day I would ususaly take 25 minutes to get there but on a snow day forget it people we so dumb couldnt realize to make it up a hill you need momentum and just pain driving slow it would commonly take 55min-1.5hours to get to work not to mention all the gas wasted idling, I could make that trip on my bmx with peddling and no motors in 45 min and on my moped in 22 and in the summer on a saturday (no traffic) in 11 minutes!
I have since moved to vancouver island and it realy almost never snows her but when it does WOW people can not drive here I have had 100s of guys in 4x4 trucks who I have to get around because they are stuck or not going to make it up a hill or somehting. I drive a turbo fron wheel drive car and I blow everyones doors off in the snow mostly because they are so scared. I do understand not many people in the world take driving the way I do and not many have the skills I do. But I don't feel automobiles should be looked at the way most people do.

 

[Grinhill]

On days like today, I'm very thankful that I have the option of driving my car, instead of my e-bike.

Gale force winds, and they said it was the biggest dust storm in eastern Australia in 70 years. Not much fun to breathe this in while pedalling.

 

[dogman dan]

Heh Heh, you should see the Texans from San Antonio or Houston try to drive to the Ski areas in New Mexico. When I was a ski instructor one of our duties was to go to the parking lot at the end of the day, and try to give texans an instant lesson on snow driving. Driving up a clear road in the morning, if it snowed during the day, they were screwed. Fortunately the short steep hill out of the parking lot would make a selection. If they could get out, they could maybe make the 10 miles of steep downhill to follow. We'd have a beer in the lodge and give them some time to get down the hill, and laugh at all the 15 passenger vans in the ditch all the way down.

As for dust, that pic from down under looks kinda normal to me. . Yes, I take a car on a day like that, or maybe don't go to work at all. The best solution was to go windurfing on a day like that. But I'm getting old for the big days, with 60 mph gusts.

One thing that's stupid, is everybody starting and finishing school or work at the same time. Here in my smallish city, the university has all employees clock in at 8:00 am. The exit from I 25 backs up and a mile of cars back up onto the freeway every day. The stack of cars is just the other side of a small hill for an underpass, so out of towners get a nice suprise. Just starting some at 7:30, 8:00, and 8:30 would fix this issue in a jiffy, but it just continues,as it has for 25 years. Albuquerque has a similar deal with the employees of Intel.

 

[Cackalacka]

RE: the Hummer thing.

I have an aquantance, a nice girl, not the brightest bulb, and certainly lacking in the self-awareness category. She makes a decent middle-class income, and decided to buy a Hummer a couple years ago, just as gas was passing $2.50 on the way to $4.00.

She recently bought a house, in B.F.E.-Blair Witch County; approximately 10 miles further from her employer than her previous residence (which was already a 20 mile commute.) Again, not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Recently, when she encountered a Smart car drive by, she said to her colleagues: "I don't call those Smart cars, I call them DUMB cars. If I hit one of those suckers with my Hummer, those passengers are dead."

While she does have a point, the narcisistic projection is astounding. It is cold comfort as an Accord driver to know my survivability in a side-impact collision with one of these behemoths is slightly better. I guess I drive a "dumb" car, too.

I have nothing against 4WD vehicles. I've got close friends who use their modified trucks for business and pleasure (although many of them have taken to dirt bikes to get their off-road kicks in the past couple years.) That said, I have never seen an H2 or an H3 with a spec of mud on them; nor have I seen them haul ladders, construction/industrial equipment, or a mounted machine gun turret. Consequently, I can't help but think "douchebag" whenever I see one of those things rumble.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x5623945

 

[dnmun]

this is exactly the mentality that detroit has pandered to from the very beginning of automobile ownership by the masses. it is also in the denser dollars category too, where the BMW 8 series owner is projecting his own bigger than you by cost of ownership equation and just presumes they have rule of the road because of it.

hopefully we will run outa gas pretty soon when the chinese and indians use it up and mexico goes dry in a few years. but you can start personally preparing now for the inevitable by designing for EV charging spots in the future. if not now.

 

[Arlo1]

this is exactly the mentality that detroit has pandered to from the very beginning of automobile ownership by the masses. it is also in the denser dollars category too, where the BMW 8 series owner is projecting his own bigger than you by cost of ownership equation and just presumes they have rule of the road because of it.

hopefully we will run outa gas pretty soon when the chinese and indians use it up and mexico goes dry in a few years. but you can start personally preparing now for the inevitable by designing for EV charging spots in the future. if not now.

It is bigger then the Auto companies alot bigger although they may do their part to get us to buy bigger but, it is the north americian way, "BIGGER IS BETTER" "MORE IS BETTER" ect ect. it is not anyones fault other then our own! Thats it not TV not the oil company NOT ANYONE other then ourselfs! I have a friend who just lost his licence and he is to proud to get a bycicle or E-bike but as I have before, I will educate him when mine is done. I will show him how fun it is and he will most likely get into one for him self. When I say before, I showed up here (when I moved to the island) with a srt-4 (small turbo car) thats fast from the factory and still gets 41-45 mpg (cdn gallon is 4.54litres) when driven normaly. He on the other hand is and was sold on bigger is better bla bla bla and found a GMC truck with a 496 special ordered motor and it guzzles gas. He hated 4 clyinder cars TILL.... We went for a few rips in my 4cyl. 3 months later He owns one. Unfortunatly We have been spoiled with cheep gas and that is one of the biggest reasons for the big Hummers ect. europe pays alot more for gas and look at what they commute on or in. People are all going through changes in the next 10-40 years as we have to pay more for fuel ect. North america will learn to be more frugel with their money and we will have to when you have countries like China working for alot less!