Electric Earth
100 W
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I use my ebike for delivery. Is it bad for the battery if I were to go on a delivery of a few miles, return home, plug in the battery, and unplug it again in 20 minutes and do another delivery?
Is it bad to constantly plug in and lightly drain a battery?
- Thread starter Electric Earth
- Start date
What kind of battery? Lead acid? They love being kept as close to full charge as possible. Lithium ion? Best keep them at about half charge. How you accomplish that is up to you. If you are only using 10% of your charge per delivery, and you have a lithium ion, best to not charge each time.Electric Earth said:
markz
100 TW
I assume you do this because you do not know where your next delivery will be, so you want a full charge just in case the next delivery so far far away.
Is that right?
I guess too it could be because you dont want to be out of juice at anytime through-out the day/night, delivering everywhere.
The more shallower the discharges, like what your doing, is better over-all, then doing a big discharge from full to empty all the time.
What kind of battery do you have, in terms of the chemistry, is it LiPo, Li-Ion, LifePO4?
Did you buy the pack from a reputable supplier like www.ebikes.ca, EM3EV, Unit Pack Power?
Does your battery have a BMS?
I was thinking you could look into buying a supplemental charger that will charge more quickly, say 1C. So if your pack is 15Ah, find a charger that will do 15A, that is your 1C. I suspect your current charger takes too much time to charge, for example 15Ah, and 3A charger, thats 5 hours! Instead of 1 hour at 15A
Is that right?
I guess too it could be because you dont want to be out of juice at anytime through-out the day/night, delivering everywhere.
The more shallower the discharges, like what your doing, is better over-all, then doing a big discharge from full to empty all the time.
What kind of battery do you have, in terms of the chemistry, is it LiPo, Li-Ion, LifePO4?
Did you buy the pack from a reputable supplier like www.ebikes.ca, EM3EV, Unit Pack Power?
Does your battery have a BMS?
I was thinking you could look into buying a supplemental charger that will charge more quickly, say 1C. So if your pack is 15Ah, find a charger that will do 15A, that is your 1C. I suspect your current charger takes too much time to charge, for example 15Ah, and 3A charger, thats 5 hours! Instead of 1 hour at 15A
Electric Earth
100 W
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This is the battery I have - http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-1e-rg6c
I'm hoping to start doing more deliveries per day by just keeping the battery topped up as much as possible. I'm generally limited in deliveries by battery capacity(range). I end up completely killing the battery every day and having to charge at night. I didn't know that faster charging might be an option. I wonder if my pack could do that. It does have a BMS. That would be Awesome. It does take a little over five hours for a full charge.
I'm hoping to start doing more deliveries per day by just keeping the battery topped up as much as possible. I'm generally limited in deliveries by battery capacity(range). I end up completely killing the battery every day and having to charge at night. I didn't know that faster charging might be an option. I wonder if my pack could do that. It does have a BMS. That would be Awesome. It does take a little over five hours for a full charge.
Electric Earth
100 W
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I do charge it to full charge(according to the charger that came with it. I've never tested the battery voltage or anything.) at night, but it doesn't sit at full charge for more than probably six hours. Hopefully that's OK for it. I can't not charge it before working.
dogman dan
1 PW
Charge at every convenient opportunity.
In your use, you need the thing to be full as much as possible of the time, regardless of the way keeping it full affects cell lifespan. This is not like a solar house system, where it might be worth it to never let charge completely full. What you need is as much capacity as you can get at times, so you need to keep it full more than you need it to last a few months longer.
So keep it on charge, 100% of the time you are not riding, unless its full. Long as the charger fan is on, keep it plugged up till you ride the next delivery. Better to keep balancing it over and over, or if not full and balanced, at least more full than otherwise.
In your use, you need the thing to be full as much as possible of the time, regardless of the way keeping it full affects cell lifespan. This is not like a solar house system, where it might be worth it to never let charge completely full. What you need is as much capacity as you can get at times, so you need to keep it full more than you need it to last a few months longer.
So keep it on charge, 100% of the time you are not riding, unless its full. Long as the charger fan is on, keep it plugged up till you ride the next delivery. Better to keep balancing it over and over, or if not full and balanced, at least more full than otherwise.
Your battery is listed as 5A max charge rate, but almost every cell out there will accept 1C charge (13A in your case.) The BMS/connector may not be happy though - you'd have to try it and see. (An alternative is to charge using the output cable, which is rated to a much higher current.) If it accepts that rate, that means you'll be able to charge 0-80% in under an hour.Electric Earth said:
I would think your best strategy would be to charge to 80% every time, then charge the additional 20% on the rare times you need all your range. Also consider carrying a charger; often there's an outlet at your destination, and there are always outlets available if you find yourself unable to get home after a delivery. (Gas stations, the fronts of big box stores etc.)
Electric Earth
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It looks like, as mentioned, my battery is rated for 5A charging. My charger says 2A output. So I should be able to double the charge current and cut the charge time in half, while still being a little below max charge accepted, giving myself a little room for error. I'm new to all of this, so didn't realize this was even an option. Up to now, I haven't bothered carrying a charger with simply because it takes so long to charge, it wouldn't do much to charge for a short time. Now that I know I can get a faster charger, maybe I'll have to start. Now to learn about chargers... This is all new territory for me. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to make them. 
Thanks, everyone, for your help!
Oh, and I charge up the battery pack in a big ceramic dish from a slow cooker. That's about the best option I have since I don't have a garage to charge in the middle of an open concrete floor. Living in the city, my battery would get stolen in no time if I tried to set up an outside charging station. The first handful of times I charged outside just to be sure the pack seemed stable. I'll do the same when I get a new charger.
Thanks, everyone, for your help!
Oh, and I charge up the battery pack in a big ceramic dish from a slow cooker. That's about the best option I have since I don't have a garage to charge in the middle of an open concrete floor. Living in the city, my battery would get stolen in no time if I tried to set up an outside charging station. The first handful of times I charged outside just to be sure the pack seemed stable. I'll do the same when I get a new charger.
LeftieBiker
100 kW
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The BEST approach would be to charge it to 100% once or twice a week, using it right after full balanced charge is reached, and the rest of the time try to stop it at about 90%. Lithium batteries don't like being at 100%. So it depends on if your range needs allow for reserving 20-30% (10% at top, 20% at bottom) of the capacity for emergency use only...
Electric Earth
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To my understanding, since the pack has a BMS, it should have a low voltage cut-off. Between that and the cut-off in the controller, over-discharge should be Very unlikely, correct?
LeftieBiker
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Electric Earth said:
It depends on the voltage set as the low cutoff. A properly set up and properly working BMS should save the battery, yes.
Electric Earth
100 W
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I found a charger that I'm pretty certain is suitable for my battery. Both battery and charger state 42v charge current and 5A. Will this one work well with my pack?
https://www.amazon.com/Mobility-Scooter-Charger-Li-ion-Battery/dp/B07C972WVN/ref=sr_1_35?keywords=36v+lithium+ion+charger&qid=1553034531&s=gateway&sr=8-35
This is the battery.
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-1e-rg6c
https://www.amazon.com/Mobility-Scooter-Charger-Li-ion-Battery/dp/B07C972WVN/ref=sr_1_35?keywords=36v+lithium+ion+charger&qid=1553034531&s=gateway&sr=8-35
This is the battery.
http://www.pswpower.com/ven.php?cargo.2018-1e-rg6c
dogman dan
1 PW
Looks like a match to me, but before you use it, check with a voltmeter, which pin is which on the plug. They could be wired different.
re the previous comment about premature battery aging. Yes, indeed, if you had the ability to charge to 80% full most of the time, then just before you ride fill it to 100%, that would maximize your battery life span. Your battery definitely needs to charge to full fairly often, to fully balance the cells voltage.
But you gotta use this thing in the real world. That means charge in the house, or get it stolen. That means charge it full before you go to bed, if possible. But I do advise not going to sleep with that thing plugged in. That is what I did the night my house burned. I forgot about the charger and went to bed, and about the time I was falling asleep, the garage lit on fire. When you are not baking something, your oven is likely the safest place to store it overnight.
Your use pattern just needs to fit your life. If that means charge it full by bedtime, 8 hours sitting full a day won't kill it quickly. It will shorten its life some, but your daily use will use it up in two years anyway. Get what I mean? If you used it weekly, try to make it last 4 years. But if you run it daily a lot, you will just use it up in two. Batteries either age out, or they just get used up. Yours will use up first.
Bottom line, charge it full anytime you can. But don's sleep in the house with it charging.
re the previous comment about premature battery aging. Yes, indeed, if you had the ability to charge to 80% full most of the time, then just before you ride fill it to 100%, that would maximize your battery life span. Your battery definitely needs to charge to full fairly often, to fully balance the cells voltage.
But you gotta use this thing in the real world. That means charge in the house, or get it stolen. That means charge it full before you go to bed, if possible. But I do advise not going to sleep with that thing plugged in. That is what I did the night my house burned. I forgot about the charger and went to bed, and about the time I was falling asleep, the garage lit on fire. When you are not baking something, your oven is likely the safest place to store it overnight.
Your use pattern just needs to fit your life. If that means charge it full by bedtime, 8 hours sitting full a day won't kill it quickly. It will shorten its life some, but your daily use will use it up in two years anyway. Get what I mean? If you used it weekly, try to make it last 4 years. But if you run it daily a lot, you will just use it up in two. Batteries either age out, or they just get used up. Yours will use up first.
Bottom line, charge it full anytime you can. But don's sleep in the house with it charging.
Electric Earth
100 W
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I like your idea of storing it in the oven. Now that it's finally warmer out and not raining, I can charge on the step outside my front door when it's warm enough to have the door open. I'll make a point to start doing that. And I do only charge when I'm up and about. It charges in the kitchen and I'm sitting within sight in the living room. ...Not that I know what I'd really do if it went up in a ball of flames. I've thought about it, and my only response is unplug and throw baking soda on it. I assume water is a bad idea for a battery housing a ton of electricity. I must say I'm always a little nervous after finding this site and reading of the house fires several of you have experienced.
dogman dan
1 PW
Likely you won't have a fire. But still dont' sleep in a house with one charging inside. I got to be the incredibly unlucky one, and actually have a fire. Almost nobody on ES has had a battery burn their house.
FWIW, I used to keep my lipo in the fireplace of my house, because I never trusted them much. Charged there too. But what to do if I did have a fire? I kept a shovel near the door to outside, which was right by the fireplace. My plan was to flip that thing outside, if it was all hot and stinking, but not actually on fire yet.
One thing a lot of us here have done with lipo we never trusted, is charge them in the barbeque grill in the yard.
FWIW, I used to keep my lipo in the fireplace of my house, because I never trusted them much. Charged there too. But what to do if I did have a fire? I kept a shovel near the door to outside, which was right by the fireplace. My plan was to flip that thing outside, if it was all hot and stinking, but not actually on fire yet.
One thing a lot of us here have done with lipo we never trusted, is charge them in the barbeque grill in the yard.
Note that smoke alarms are very cheap, $10 ? It makes sense so have one near anything that is a high fire risk.
(excepting a few of the 'hardened' locations proposed like fireplaces where obviously it would be a nuisance).
The fancy versions for $100 are wifi enabled and can notify you via an app even if you aren't at home or near enough to hear. They also mitigate annoying false alarms from stuff like cooking by giving initial low key warning & opportunity to temporary mute.
I'll be putting one near charging stations, 3D printer, etc etc.
(excepting a few of the 'hardened' locations proposed like fireplaces where obviously it would be a nuisance).
The fancy versions for $100 are wifi enabled and can notify you via an app even if you aren't at home or near enough to hear. They also mitigate annoying false alarms from stuff like cooking by giving initial low key warning & opportunity to temporary mute.
I'll be putting one near charging stations, 3D printer, etc etc.
wturber
1 MW
My only concern would be durability/longevity given that it has a fan. I would be doubly concerned if you carry the charger on the bike.Electric Earth said:
Some time ago I added a Meanwell HLG 320H 42A LED power supply to use as a charger. It will supply up to 7.65 amps but you can dial it back to a lower output. It is fully potted which make it very durable if you are going to carry it with you on the bike.
https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/ac-dc-single-output-led-driver-mix-mode-cv-cc-with-hlg--320h--42a
My routine is to keep my fairly large battery charged to 50-80% or so and to fully charge it right before my commute to work or home. When I get home, I charge for about 30 minutes right away so that I can sleep without the battery being charged. I then put it on the charger when I get up and it is usually fully charged by the time I'm ready to leave, but only barely so. So the cells get a full charge which tends to balance them, but they don't sit in that state for long.
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