Just received a 48V pack from Aliexpress. Did I get boned?

[filmoreslim]

So I ordered this pack that has been recommended by the guy that runs ebikeschool.com http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Grea...-for-1000w-1500w-2000w-motor/32401868802.html I got it for $434 but it was a lot cheaper than the other options I looked at in the US.

Here is a picture of it:

It claims to be made from Samsung or LG 18650 cells but it came with some paperwork that list the manufacturer as "First New Energy Group Co. LTD". Is that some Chinese knockoff manufacturer?

Anyway it appears to work, I haven't had a chance to test the range I can get. I don't have a cycle analyst or anything so I can't do any real testing on it. I haven't yet signed off with Aliexpress that I got the item and that it was as described. Should I email the seller and ask what cells are in it?

 

[spinningmagnets]

I know there's a time limit to claims, so...it would have been great if you already had some type of watt-meter. That way, you could charge it up, ride your ebike to LVC, do a couple more cycles, and then see how many usable "real world" Amp-hours you are really getting.

If you could easily adjust the max amps from the controller, then you "could" start low and then keep raising it until you reach a point where the voltage sag becomes noticeable. That way you could make a rough estimate of the current per parallel string, and then determine the amps per cell that you can realistically expect. I'd also monitor the heat coming from the cells to help determine the max amps that could be safely drawn.

It might actually be a decent pack at an affordable price, but...no way to tell from that paperwork.

 

[dogman dan]

you got what you paid for. If it works you did not get boned. But outright lies on ali express are pretty standard.

But if they sent the right spec sheet, you did get what you'd expect to get for that price.

You got laptop cells, as the sheet says. Not tesla grade cells. Max discharge rate is said to be 1c, though they don't call it by that unit of measure.

They promised 10 amps per cell discharge rate, the sheet says 2.2 amps. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm pretty amused you believed that 10 amps per cell discharge rate claim, when you paid what you did.

My advice would be to discharge this battery at rates not exceeding a 25 amps controller. It's not a pack for a big 2000w bike. 1000w ok.

 

[teklektik]

Yep - quite probably - but not for the reason you think.

Don't confuse the name and quality of the pack manufacturer with the name and quality of the cell manufacturer. And don't confuse US seller with in-house pack manufacturer. Knock-off cells are only part of the 'thrift battery' problem.

There are three big factors in a battery: the cells, the BMS, and the pack fabrication. You got a promise on the first part, which leaves you with two major unknowns - assuming the first was fulfilled.

There are many many pack manufacturers in China that work for cheap and contract to assemble packs from cells they buy or that are drop shipped by US or Chinese contractors who can get volume cell price discounts. These are low budget outfits that hot glue the cells, hand wire the packs with rat's nest wire routing, and add any BMS that is available for cheap. It gets taped up nice, the contracted label is stuck on, and there you go - an unbelievably inexpensive pack built with Samsung cells - ready to be sold by Chinese or 'US' battery vendors. Woohoo!

Absolutely zero misrepresentation.

Why do EM3EV, AllCell, etc batteries cost more using the same prime manufacturer cells? Molded cell holders, die-stamped nickel busses, individual cell fusing, quality BMS, no-spark connectors, large gauge quality wiring - all that stuff in the last two categories above. The measure of pack quality isn't in whether it will make a motor spin right out of the box - that's the easy part... ("It worked right away!" is hardly a technically compelling battery review).

Not everyone loses in a crap shoot - but it's still gambling and you chose to play. Maybe it will work out, but don't have any delusions that you somehow out-smarted those other battery outfits that 'obviously' just jack up the price to rip you off for the 'same battery'.

 

[999zip999]

Do let is know how it works out.

 

[filmoreslim]

Do let is know how it works out.

Well I messaged the seller with my concerns the other day but have received radio silence so far. Funny since both of my previous inquires were answered within minutes.

Kind of surprised by the response I got to this post to be honest. I was told I confused the pack manufacturer with the cell manufacturer and there was

Absolutely zero misrepresentation.

The test sheet I attached shows "First New energy Group" as the cell manufacturer but I am probably confused.

It's a bummer because I was convinced that I

out-smarted those other battery outfits that 'obviously' just jack up the price to rip you off for the 'same battery'.

Of course I realize that this is a Chinese seller, and all claims must be taken with a grain of salt. It was however recommended by what I thought was a well respected user of this forum. He shills it on his website, on Reddit multiple times, and even has the pack linked in his signature. http://www.ebikeschool.com/list-great-inexpensive-electric-bicycle-parts/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/4i4otg/found_a_good_deal_on_a_48v_20ah_pack/

He claims it uses Samsung cells as does the vendor.

This item 48V 20Ah was built by new original Samsung inr18650-22P 5C 10A high drain cells or LG 5C 10A high drain cells .

Was just trying to do a service to this forum by reporting on my experience with the pack, glad I could provide some amusement at least.

 

[friendly1uk]

That ebikeschool had it's own thread recently. Basically they got paid to send you there. They have a few links to recognised companies such as this site owners shop, but the rest are all aliexpress without exception and earn them money.

It's owned by a forum member so some will support him. Check the links though. Worthless to you, but not to him. I'm afraid you have been misled.

I could be wrong, but I'm 99% certain and unwilling to check or I to will be funding their shenanigans through add revenue. Which reading stories like yours, I refuse to do.

 

[wesnewell]

They are for the manufacurer/distributor of the battery pack. Only way to tell what cells are in it is to open it up.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=First+New+Energy+Group+Co.+LTD

 

[dogman dan]

The bottom line for others who read this,,, Is when you buy a 20 ah battery for 400 bucks shipped, is it plausible that the very very best cells are inside it?

Uh,,, no.

This may not have been apparent to you, you trusted a website to steer you right. It's quite possible that certain people did get sent a pack made with quality cells, then they switched to something else.

But with a similar quality pack costing close to double elsewhere, it just wasn't plausible you would get 10c NMC cells for that price. ( do they even exist? 10 c? ) It's a real bummer you got a pack worth 400 bucks, but it's what you paid for, despite your believing the blatant lie on the Alibaba ad.

Hopefully others will read this thread before they buy, and realize that for that price, they will get at best, 2c cells inside.

Oh, and by the way, the shipping of that battery is still completely illegal, even the slow boat ship way. If it comes by air,,, OMG. Its not a UN3835 certified pack.

 

[filmoreslim]

Fair enough, lesson learned. Hopefully it doesn't catch fire.

 

[dogman dan]

It should be ok, unless you throw it around the room like a hoverboard, slamming it into walls and such. Or run it on a 40 amps controller.

I bought a similar battery a bit less than a year ago. It was cheap, I wasn't promised great cells. It never put out 20 ah, and sags like hell on anything more than 20 amps discharge. it now puts out about 16 ah, which sucks. But it's doing fine otherwise.

You got what you paid for, but you were promised a lot more. If you can get refunded, based on that sheet they sent, go for it. They deserve to get boned.

 

[Lurkin]

Really, I think you should be seeing a doctor...

 

[999zip999]

Just use it with a 20amp controller. That will not over load the batteries ability. Just run under it's limits. You don't drive your car full throttle always. Feather the throttle. Peddle first, take a longer less steep hill ect.
Even dogman got sucker. I got sucker twice on batteries.

 

[filmoreslim]

Well they gave me a partial refund so I am pretty happy. Going to buy a wattmeter so I can do some testing on the actual capacity of the pack. I have been able to do 16 miles roundtrip to work WOT (around 30-33mph peak) and still have 47.5 volts when I get home. My cheapo battery meter on the LCD shows the battery almost empty though.

 

[dogman dan]

Yay,, you got a great deal then, now.

 

[riba2233]

IDK of any modern Samsung or LG battery that has such low capacity AND ampacity so in that sense it was not as described as the sheet indicates.

Time to learn:

Samsung 22P:


http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-icr18650-22p.html

LG MF2:

http://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/lg-mf2.html


Both are 2200 mah and 10 A just like described in their ad.

 

[Bobbyhax]

I was thinking a long time to buy this battery, but luckly I did my research.
The first thing that was suspiciously was that it had not the normal spec sheet, that everybody use, but the thing that confirmed my suspicious, was that the size of this battery is to smal to be a 20 AH battery. You need 117 cells with 2200 mA to get 20AH, and no way that it is 117 cells in this battery

A 117 cell shoud be arround 305x240x189 mm
https://www.electricbike.com/triangle-battery-different-sizes/

 

[riba2233]

Yeah I was referring to this (from ad):

"1. This item 48V 20Ah was built by new original Samsung inr18650-22P 5C 10A high drain cells or LG 5C 10A high drain cells ."


But the datasheet he got tells different story :?

Guess he should open it up, that's the only way to be sure whether he got ripped or not.

 

[Bikemad]

Yeah I was referring to this (from ad):

"1. This item 48V 20Ah was built by new original Samsung inr18650-22P 5C 10A high drain cells or LG 5C 10A high drain cells ."


But the datasheet he got tells different story :?

Guess he should open it up, that's the only way to be sure whether he got ripped or not.

They appear to be using YG INR18650E 2000mAh cells, probably in a 13S10P configuration:

Check out this thread on the Golden Motor forum for further details.

Alan

 

[riba2233]

Well that's too bad, these wont last long and perform well.

 

[Bikemad]

Yeah I was referring to this (from ad):
They appear to be using YG INR18650E 2000mAh cells, probably in a 13S10P configuration:

It would appear that I was wrong about the 13S10P as it is only a 13S9P 18Ah pack:

It would appear that cheap packing pieces produce more profit for the seller than fitting another 13 non-genuine cells!

Alan

 

[filmoreslim]

Well I ran the battery down as far as I could go and I got about 14ah before the controller started chopping power. Got a little past 14.5ah before the batteries' LVC shut it off completely. Kind of bummed but it only cost me $364 after the refund. I really didn't want to spend too much on my first build. When this one dies I'll probably buy a Luna 52V. Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[e-beach]

Tell us about you testing method.

Because if you are going WOT at 30+ mph and getting .725% of you total pack amperage, and not heating the cells in the process then you are doing fine. Lithium cells generally are only supposed to deliver about 80% of their total capacity. If you are going fast and still getting 72.5% or your rated capacity, then you have a good pack.

Sooooo, tell us about your testing method.



Edit: Ok, I just saw the 18ah part of your last post. If you get 14.5 ah out of your pack, then that is 80.5% of your rated capacity. Right in line with what you are supposed to be getting from the pack. Obliviously not 20ah though.

Still, tell us about your testing method.

 

[filmoreslim]

Tell us about you testing method.

Because if you are going WOT at 30+ mph and getting .725% of you total pack amperage, and not heating the cells in the process then you are doing fine.

I'm using a Tenergy wattmeter. I rode in to work and back today, which I think was something like 16 miles and 8 or 9 ah? I almost always am going WOT with minimal stopping or traffic lights. It hovers around 30mph when I get to full speed. The pack is usually down to around 48v after that commute. And then I just rode in big loops (again WOT) around my neighborhood until it started cutting out. I think it was around 45v at that time but the wattmeter showed a Vm of 41.02v. I think it was showing something like 14.3 ah and I had gone maybe 25 or 26 miles. I kept going for as long as I could by lessening the throttle but I couldn't get much more out of it before the battery itself shutoff. The last time I checked before the shutoff(and reset of the wattmeter) I think it was at 44.5v/14.5ah and I had gone about 27miles.

 

[tomjasz]

That ebikeschool had it's own thread recently. Basically they got paid to send you there. They have a few links to recognised companies such as this site owners shop, but the rest are all aliexpress without exception and earn them money.

It's owned by a forum member so some will support him. Check the links though. Worthless to you, but not to him. I'm afraid you have been misled.

I could be wrong, but I'm 99% certain and unwilling to check or I to will be funding their shenanigans through add revenue. Which reading stories like yours, I refuse to do.

Micah has done a lot to promote eBikes, I suspect he hadn't checked of edited his links. Primary links are to the top sellers like EM3ev.
The original link was to a 2600Mah cell pack that was 30Ah, Micah simply listed a few links he was referred to and none have any payback to his site. The company in China has since changed the page. I'm still amazed by the number of nOObs that come here after buying from "Aliexpress", never really understanding who they purchased from, and never having clear conversations about what they are buying before plunking the money down. I've used and recommended a China seller for scores of perfect purchases. Oddly those that referred me here prefer to keep the trade secret and never publicly reveal the vendor. But there are great vendors, unfortunately shipping problems are beginning to screw that relationship. Currently Luna is the best low price bet. But the warranty is short. Always best to buy and give it a good workout in the earliest weeks to wring out any problems.