Karl's Business Question Thread

bigmoose said:
Molicel NMC datasheet for general info: http://www.molicel.com/hq/product/DM_IBR26700A.pdf
Click to expand...

from that data sheet it looks like the cell drops from 4.2v fully charged , down to 2.0v at "discharge cut off " ?
2.2v range over the discharge cycle seems like a lot if it is true.
Would'nt that give a huge drop in power and speed for the last stages of discharge ..( much more than Nanotech )
I guess we need to see a discharge plot to get the full picture.
 
From the molicell datasheet, it looks like a 10% decline in capacity over 1000 cycles at 100% DOD (100% SOC down to 0% SOC) and a discharge rate of 1C or ~7C doesn't seem to affect cycle life. Excellent! If we can get these at $1.50 per watthour (Which seems like it shouldn't be hard since they're cheaper to manufacture than LiCo?) or less, that would be a stellar leap in batteries.
 
I tried to get in touch with EiG but they didnt reply.
Anyone actually selling thoses to the public in smaller quantities?
 
The NMC cathode referenced in the linked dissertation has a stable capacity of 150 mAh/g @ 4.2V (200 mAh/g @ 5.0V but unstable). I believe this is the 1st gen "fail-boat" (not really since it's way better than LifePO4) tech used in the Moli cells and probably by whoever supplies Crystalyte (the Chinese haven't caught/copied-up just yet), but I'm only guessing.

The Argonne layered layered composite cathode used in LG Chem cells uses has a stable capacity of >250 mAh/g, which means it's stable at >4.6V, hence the higher potential Luke alluded to. I'm not sure sure what EIG uses but they are in Korea with LG Chem so I wouldn't be surprised if their corporate espionage unit discovered the same tech LG Chem "discovered".

If you want EIG to send you cells just send a sample request with a spoofed email address from a megacorp :twisted: or just go work for one :cry:

Tech reading on the 2nd gen NMC tech (University of Chicago "manages" Argonne National Lab):
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=kO8PAAAAEBAJ&dq=6677082
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=qe8PAAAAEBAJ&dq=6680143
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=NHJ7AAAAEBAJ&dq=7135252
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=ILGxAAAAEBAJ&dq=7468223

I think part of the structure stabilizes the whole structure by charging to a potential >4.6V. This synergistic effect may be the key.
 
Notice of LiNiCoMnO2 is that make sure not over charge as this may cause fire or explode. It's same as Cell phone battery which have higher power density. So it can be a bit smaller and suit for cell phone.
The mayjor thing you should notice is make sure the LiNiCoMnO2 is use under rated power ouput. Better will be use in the ebikes of yours or a set of conversion kit.
Also check if cable is enough to load current. The most importance is soldering tin, check if there are firm. (better not use solder)
I have ever see a insufficient solder catch fire on the BMS when making discharge test. And later the whole battery pack catch fire.

One customer who come to us in Europe market have ever share his experience with us about LiNiCoMnO2. He sell 20000 bicycle a year with LiNiCoMnO2 36V 9Ah batteries. 2 battery pack catched fire at that year.
 
fellas,

i have been running two 37v/10.5 ah packs of this chemistry in series for the last three years now. 6000 miles. ken at itselectric sells them. he even has a discharge plot on his website.

len
 
Thanks to all your replies.

Do they send out well pakaged box ready for re-sell or do I have to unbox and rebox everything?

because I am 50 -50 between ebikekit kits and crystalyte kits

Jason from ebikekits has a lot of pictures and looks like solid products

but people over this forums seems to love crystalyte motors

I need more feedback please
 
Try to be the first to offer the 54 series in America

Try to get Chrystalyte to lace your wheels in wider rims, with better spokes.
 
i got a 3540 unsensored from maxwell laced into a 26" whee b y the factoryl[ doble wall,stainless steel spiokes] wheel was true....i use a Lyen controller...everything works.. :mrgreen: fine also have a CA dp with separate speed lead
 
Hey Karl, we are in a similar situation here! I am thinking on creating my own ebike kit brand here in Greece.. I was thinking to start with budget kits though with BMS battery(Ecitypower) components.

Where do you plan to supply the battery from? Will you create your own battery and controller case?
 
tsakis said:
Hey Karl, we are in a similar situation here! I am thinking on creating my own ebike kit brand here in Greece.. I was thinking to start with budget kits though with BMS battery(Ecitypower) components.

Where do you plan to supply the battery from? Will you create your own battery and controller case?
Click to expand...

hi tsakis, Crystalyte supplys LMN or LNM batteries!

As I said above I will make 3 complete starter kits for ~550-600$ (price is not set yet) with SLA's.
Once people want more speed, distance or torque. I will sell them a lithium battery!
or they can just have a small credit and have the complete kit with lithium battery for Approx ~1100$

the kits will all be sold with a 72v controller and 25 amps.

the differance between the kits will only be the motor
distance starter kit = HS/HT 2425
speed starter kit = HS3540
Torque starter kit (offroad) = HT3525

and I will also sell upgraded products such as better controller, tuned motors, batteries, tires and much more.

I have a website that I try to finish
velomoteur.ca

I would like feedbacks on it if you guys can
I am waitting to order from kenny or jason before putting up the real pictures on the website
 
MadRhino said:
Lead is dead baby, Lead is dead.

Ref.: Bullwinkle

8)
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. but it will be a sales strategy. Using low price to sell. once they realise that battery is the whole thing in ebike. they wont go out and purchase another kit... they will just invest an extra 500 for a higher rated battery

right?

because purchasing 1100-1200$ right off the bat is quite a ''think about it twice'' than a 500-600 ''why not''

people will be addicted as soon as they try it anyways

do you think?
 
Karl said:
MadRhino said:
Lead is dead baby, Lead is dead.

Ref.: Bullwinkle

8)
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you. but it will be a sales strategy. Using low price to sell. once they realise that battery is the whole thing in ebike. they wont go out and purchase another kit... they will just invest an extra 500 for a higher rated battery

right?

because purchasing 1100-1200$ right off the bat is quite a ''think about it twice'' than a 500-600 ''why not''

people will be addicted as soon as they try it anyways

do you think?
Click to expand...

Not sure i agree with the ethics behind that one.... from a pure business standpoint it makes sense i suppose. At the end of the day its your decision, personally id be honest with them from the start and tell em they can have the lead for $600 but it will blow compared to a lithium diet so why not just go all out and do it right first time? If i had known that my battery in my e-bike kit was a limp d#@% id have gone with something better straight away and i would have saved myself $500 in the long run.
 
Dont worry. I will tell them right away abotu lithium kits but as a sales man I can tell that a lot are focusing on price.

a kit will be about 500$ and the rest from 500- to final price that should be betweeb 500 and 600$ is for SLA setup which im not too sure of the final price.

I will make them try lithium for sure tho. But its something they can purchase later

I just want to make this hobby/way of commute, affordable for all budjets
 
Karl,

An explanation to your customers that lithium is actually cheaper. It is more expensive up front but cost and performance per mile/km is much lower. An honest answer is always best and if they can only afford and insist, sell them a lead battery. Stock both, sell lithium with plain truth.
 
Who is your target market, where are your customers located, and how do they find you?
Who are your competitors in that space?
Have you purchased Product Liability insurance?


-JD
 
liability insurance? I plan on doing this part time at 1st

and yea basically I dont really know how to make a business plan... Which is what I need before purchasing.

Karl
 
Karl said:
liability insurance? I plan on doing this part time at 1st
Click to expand...

Not Liability Insurance... PRODUCT liability insurance.

When your customer runs someone down, and the victim names you as a party to the lawsuit, part/full time won't matter... Whether or not you are liable, you will need to hire counsel to defend you, and that can get expensive. Product Liability Insurance addresses that, but it requires stewardship and $$$.

While I cheer your plans, when I considered it in 2007, the scenarios I was presented by counsel made me drop my ebike manufacturing/marketing aspirations like a hot LiPo.

Sad, but it is the world we live in.

-JD
 
MadRhino said:
Try to be the first to offer the 54 series in America

Try to get Chrystalyte to lace your wheels in wider rims, with better spokes.
Click to expand...

I asked kenny about the 54 series and he told me the HT and HS has replaced them

or that is what Im thinking... heres what he said

Hello Karl Sabourin,
The 5400 series have replace with HT and HS series.
Please check the detail from www.crystalyte.com
Feel free mail me for more information.
 
The 54 series was released this year, it is even bigger than the 53 series, with about the same weight. They want the H series to replace the 53 series, but they will not succeed. This is a good motor to compete with the 9c, but not one that can take the heat like the big ones. IMO, once the 54 series hit the market in America, it will be the one that every one who is after performance will want.

Everyone who tried to sell it here was told the same bullshit. My guess is that they have some exclusivity clause with someone in Germany. :wink:
 
I believe this water bottle mount style battery is this chemistry also, from BMSbattery.com.
They list it as Li-NiCoMn but I think they just dropped the O2. $200 does not sound bad for this.

Web Link: http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/362-bottlle-battery-case-for-cylindrical-cell.html

bottlle-battery-case-for-cylindrical-cell.jpg


I wouldn't just use the two frame water bottle cage mount holes if I was going to use one of these. At least not without additional reinforcement.
 
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