Kelly Controller Pron, and a Call for Help

[fechter]

The only thing I can think of that would make a boiling sound is the main capacitors.

If the main caps go bad and don't short out, the FETs will blow the first time you give them some power.

I wonder if they used cheap main caps? That would be a mistake.

 

[TylerDurden]

JA, whut Fechter said... plus you might want to replace caps ASAP, as they are likely damaged (cooked electrolyte) and could fail early/whenever.

:?

 

[oatnet]

Bad news/Good news.

This Kelly controller died last week after 5 months of daily operation. First ride of the day, I turned the controller on, shut my garage door, hit the throttle, and heard a that bubbling sound... Turned it off, turned it on again, no bubbling this time but jerky acceleration, so I lost 1 or two of the phases. Didn't smell as bad as fried xlyte, but there was a whiff of burnt in the air. Checked the hall sensors, all A-OK. No changes to this rig in a while, not since my wife soldered me up a new wiring harness a few months ago, not to mention hardwiring the hall sensors and throttle, and I have a ton of miles on it since then.

I emailed Kelly Controllers about it, and Steven got back to me the next day (Saturday), said he had a replacement in-stock in the US, and shipped it out USPS Priority Mail.

Now that my freinds, is customer service. No hassles, no talking to me like I'm a moron, no month-long involved return process, just 'Yes sir, let me take care of that for you.'

Kelly is my first choice for controllers. I was impressed with their product's build quality from the day I got it, sealed for protection, a robust set of features, built like a true 5kw EV controller instead of a toy. Sure it eventually failed, but it took 5 months of daily commuting and I've had a lot of xlyte controllers go in the first week - a few the first day. Now I am also impressed by how Kelly backs up their product, one more reason for me to keep giving them my business.

Kelly Rocks!

http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/Ebike-BLDC-controller.html

-JD

 

[oatnet]

I got the replacement controller in two days, amazing service. Hooked it up and the xtracycle is back on duty.

Speed limiting is now an option, I don't know if that is due to this being a "KEB" (ebike) model instead of a "KBL" (bldc) model or just newer code. This is handy, I have been riding the bike less and less lately because it was too fast. When I first built the bike, I was still all about speed. The problem is, when that speed is there, I tend to use it. 40+mph feels comfortable and gets me through my commute fast, but it is illegal, and falling at that speed would do serious damage, so I have been worried that one or the other would eventually bite me. The problem is that I need a lot of current to climb (1) of the hills on my commute, and enough power to climb it translates to 40+mph even in torque mode.

This new option allows me to set the #/poles in the motor and set speed as % of max. Not sure what "max" is, but after experimenting I have it set at 100% of current (for launch and hill-climbing and) speed to 54% of max, which yields a top unassisted speed of 20mph - boring but LEGAL. The cycleanalyst shows this as yeilding 55amps on launch and current tapering off all the way up to 20mph. I wish the taper didn't start until 15mph or so, but I am still glad to have the feature.

My KBL controller pulled 92a when set to 100% current, and as I mentioned this one pulls 55a, although I have not tested without speed limiting to see if that is why. Both controllers are rated "100a"(60a continious), maybe the other one pulled too much current, and hence its eventual demise.

My motor definitely runs quieter on this controller too. I'm wired for Regen but it still doesn't seem to work, I need to spend some time troubleshooting but I think I'm gonna ride the beach instead!

So thanks Kelly Controllers for making a great product!

-JD

 

[Johnbear]

I got the replacement controller in two days, amazing service. Hooked it up and the xtracycle is back on duty.



-JD

That is amazing service, sad to say but it would be great if all dealers were like that. I was under the impression that controllers were not being shipped during the Olympics.

 

[oatnet]

That is amazing service, sad to say but it would be great if all dealers were like that. I was under the impression that controllers were not being shipped during the Olympics.

He actually had it in the US already, so I got it 2-day priority mail. I wonder if Kelly is now stocking in the US, or if they just took special measures for the Olympics. Either way, I am very pleased.

-JD

 

[methods]

Ah, just the thread I was looking for.

I was concerned about undocumented differences between the KEB and KBL series.
I run a 24S Lipo pack so my hot of the charger voltage is 100.8 ..... Too much for the KEB series

Next in line is the KBL12151H
That will allow me to run my packs hot (maybe even add another 6S)
They also have the KBL12221H

Specs:
24V to 120V (max is like 136V or something)

KBL12151H
150A for 1 minute
80A continuous

KBL12221H
220A for 1 minute
120A continuous

I am concerned about 2 things:

1) Would stepping up to the KBL12221H be less efficient since they probably use bigger mosfets?
2) Is the KEB just re-badging or does it really perform better on bikes (quieter, more efficient, etc)

Words of wisdom welcome.

Thanks for all the good info guys
As a reward for your hard work I am going to give you guys dibs on buying my 7240 V2 with 4110's (See pic)

-methods

 

[dirty_d]

wow that is carnage.

 

[dirty_d]

so what fets do the kelly controller use? and how do they conect electrically to be able to handle 100A?

 

[shinyballs]

Damn, killed Kelly after updating firmware....
Installed Flash Burst program and firmware after receiving from Kelly(Steven). Finished the firmware update and displayed message "Update complete" . After power cycle, leds red and green are continuously on - meaning Bad controller. Now, shipping back for replacement.

firmware: (KEB)Project.abs.s19
* Confirmed with Kelly that this is for KBL72101. But I think he may have sent me the wrong firmware.

 

[methods]

Damn, killed Kelly after updating firmware....
Installed Flash Burst program and firmware after receiving from Kelly(Steven). Finished the firmware update and displayed message "Update complete" . After power cycle, leds red and green are continuously on - meaning Bad controller. Now, shipping back for replacement.

firmware: (KEB)Project.abs.s19
* Confirmed with Kelly that this is for KBL72101. But I think he may have sent me the wrong firmware.

I got the new firmware and blasted it on just fine.
My controller is now firmware #209 so I have the ABS and all the new features.
KBL12221

It can be a bit tricky. I had to do it a few different ways to get it right.

-Patrick

 

[shinyballs]

Just got a reply from chairman mao -

Jojo,

I received your return. Thanks.
A new KBL72101 will be shipped tomorrow, priority mail confirmation ############. I have reflashed the controller with the latest firmware

I thought your controller was KEB, so sent KEB firmware to you. I guess that was the problem. Here is the KBL firmware. You don't have to reflash it since I have it done.

thanks,
steven


He should have sent me the firmware file "(KBL)Project.abs.s19"! :x And he didn't bother to ask what model I'm using!?
Anyways, shit happens, I shouldn't have ignored my suspicions when I first notice something not right with the filename. Hopefully, no future problems with this replacement...

 

[methods]

He should have sent me the firmware file "(KBL)Project.abs.s19"! :x And he didn't bother to ask what model I'm using!?

No. . .

You should have asked for the correct firmware.
It is a privilege to be allowed to do in the field firmware updates
If crap like this continues to happen the rest of us will lose that privilege
I clearly communicated my exact model number when I asked for my firmware update

Kelly lost a lot of money on that deal shiny. . . To the tune of hundreds of dollars.
Instead of questioning you, they just sent you a new one.
You should be thanking them, not complaining about how *they* should have asked you.

If this continues to happen first they will stop allowing firmware updates then they will stop taking returns at the drop of a hat.

Think about it.

-Patrick

 

[ZapPat]

He should have sent me the firmware file "(KBL)Project.abs.s19"! :x And he didn't bother to ask what model I'm using!?

No. . .

You should have asked for the correct firmware.
It is a privilege to be allowed to do in the field firmware updates
If crap like this continues to happen the rest of us will lose that privilege
I clearly communicated my exact model number when I asked for my firmware update

Kelly lost a lot of money on that deal shiny. . . To the tune of hundreds of dollars.
Instead of questioning you, they just sent you a new one.
You should be thanking them, not complaining about how *they* should have asked you.

If this continues to happen first they will stop allowing firmware updates then they will stop taking returns at the drop of a hat.

Think about it.

-Patrick

Don't you think that the kelly people should have known what controller version they had sold to shinyballs, and sent along the correct firmware?

If they were willing to risk sending the firmware in the first place, they should be using some kind of client database to be sure this wouldn't happen...

 

[methods]

Don't you think that the kelly people should have known what controller version they had sold to shinyballs, and sent along the correct firmware?

If they were willing to risk sending the firmware in the first place, they should be using some kind of client database to be sure this wouldn't happen...

I agree with your point on principle. Kelly should have only sent the firmware if they knew it was correct.

My point is to take Personal Responsibility.
Kelly usually sells their product to Fork Lift manufactures and the like. Engineers who know to ask for what they need. Kelly released a series of KEB (electric bike) models and they are learning how to deal with the "general public". I assume that Shiny told them something about his electric bike and Kelly probably made a poor assumption. Electric bike = KEB

Should kelly have asked? YES

But look at it this way. . . Instead of Kelly asking him "are you SURE you are doing everything right..." and pissing him off Kelly instead chose *Customer is always right* and fixed the problem immediately at their own loss. That is the high road.

So my scolding was for 2 reasons:

1) I dont want our relationship with Kelly to be compromised. Most manufactures stop sharing firmware when they start dealing with problems like this.

2) Kelly handled the situation Very Well. I think that the tone should have been one of appreciation, not one of grumbling. Do you think Crystalyte would have handed the situation the same way? Kelly is an incredibly affable company and I would like to keep it that way. They have a good reputation and they deserve to keep that good reputation.



-methods

 

[ZapPat]

OK methods, I agree with what you say. A little fault each way for the problem, but a good compremise was reached where kelly was willing to absorb repair costs, thus showing good customer service. Something which is hard to find these days sometimes (but then again we should expect it when we pay for higher end products anyways).

 

[shinyballs]

Why are you so concerned about there loss?
Do you have money invested or have some romantic thing with Kelly? If no, you certainly have no clue how businesses works, esp. million/zillion dollar ones. They will declare the Controller as defective and be a tax deduction when filing for income tax. This kind of loss is one of the risks of doing business. Big companies have budget allocations for losses related to damages caused by acts of God or man, theft, etc... A few dollars loss? yes. Your saying "the tune of hundreds of dollars" loss? Bleh

My fault is I was careless and assumed he knows my Controller. And I thanked them for realizing there negligence and sent me a replacement. Regarding if they will stop allowing firmware updates then stop taking returns?
Ask yourself this -
Will Cisco stop providing firmware updates to there routers because some bozo Net admin screwed up while doing a firmware update and shutdown a network?
Will Intel, Asus, Gigabyte stop firmware updates to there mobos cause some wanna-be overclockers fried some boards?
Will Pioneer stop providing firmware updates to there DVD-burners cause someone installed it to a different make/model?

NO

What Kelly should do hopefully in the future is to add logic code to there reflash program, and an ID and revision# to the firmware and Controller. So, when the program is run, it will only continue the update if the IDs match and Controller revision# is older than the firmware file.

Regarding firmwares as "privileges" to end-users? Wrong
Wanna remind you the year now is 2008, not 1988. Digital based devices are prevalent that a firmware is a common feature. If you are not aware of this, firmwares make a Company's product more competitive and are there to add more functionality. It decreases obsolescence which then makes the product last longer. Even my Logitech cordless keyboard and webcam are firmware upgradeable.

Dude, you need a lot of catching up to do in the real world...
and Dude, learn from the free lecture here so you won't be so left behind

 

[methods]

I am not even going to try to argue a case against that anti-logic
A bunch of asinine, irrelevant, apples & oranges, hot air.
Justify your behavior however you like.

I call it how I see it.

-methods

 

[shinyballs]

stating those idiotic criticisms, defines the other as pathetic and narrowminded,
who still thinks poop is still blue

 

[billvon]

Regarding firmwares as "privileges" to end-users? Wrong
Wanna remind you the year now is 2008, not 1988.

I think one of the issues here is that as far as BLDC bicycle controllers are concerned, it IS 1988. They're just starting out.

If the issue was that a Logitech keyboard had problems, and the firmware upgrade got screwed up and bricked the keyboard, you'd throw it out (perhaps after posting some stuff on the net and vowing to "never buy another lousy Logitech product as long as you live") and get a keyboard from someone else - and the problem would be solved. Lots of people make keyboards and they're dirt cheap due to competition.

BLDC motor controllers aren't like that. The good ones are few and far between, and you can't just discard every one with bugs and insist on a certain level of (finish/quality/weatherproofing/upgradability.) Well, you could, but you'd wind up with no controller.

Justin's going to be releasing his controller pretty soon, and hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on one. I expect it to not be perfect since it will be an early release. If it's a hassle to deal with (i.e. requires a specific programmer for SW update, requires tweaking of the board etc) I'm happy to do that, both because I expect it and because that might help Justin come out with a better product in the end.

 

[ZapPat]

Justin's going to be releasing his controller pretty soon, and hopefully I'll be able to get my hands on one. I expect it to not be perfect since it will be an early release. If it's a hassle to deal with (i.e. requires a specific programmer for SW update, requires tweaking of the board etc) I'm happy to do that, both because I expect it and because that might help Justin come out with a better product in the end.

Where did you hear about this? I checked their site, and no mention of his new controller anywhere...

 

[methods]

I was thinking the same.
Admittedly I have not been keeping up, but last I heard Justin said that he had no intention of releasing it.

-methods

 

[shinyballs]

Any Kelly users using an led on pin6(J1) for "Running indication" display? Voltage on mine is very low at .20v - not enough to power an led.
Manual says output < 2v, could it be that voltage will only increase(pin6) if there is a high enough current passing to the controller?

 

[methods]

You are reading voltage in parallel with the Green LED that is already lit.
LED's are current driven, so when you hook up the green LED it will light
The instructions call out an LED that draws less than 2ma
Like the instructions say, it will be a weak light and the led on the front panel will become less bright.

These are green LED's that draw 2ma
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll



-methods

 

[drewjet]

I just used a red and a green LED from Rat Shack that had panel mounts. They are not real bright but work fine.