KTM conversion ELXC

[bunya]

The BMS CAN bus troubles continue. I need to change modCAN.c in the firmware but the version 5.04 of firmware that has the Elcon charger implementation is only provided in compiled form. Maxkgo have version 5.02 available on github but Ennoid seem to only have a much older version of the firmware available circa version 1.4. I have reached out to @ENNOID to see if there is a way forward for the project.
At this point my options are:
1. Hack away at version 5.02 of the firmware and refactor the DeltaQ CANOpen code to represent what the Elcon requires.
2. Use my adafruit CAN shield to interface the DeltaQ charger requirements and convert them to Elcon's protocol.
3. Work with Ennoid to get 5.04 firmware with the last three bytes padded out to 00 00 00.
4. Abandon the CAN bus charger and just use CC/CV

Option 3 is the preferred option but if that's a no-go I'll pursue Option 1. On the surface the Delta Q code in V5.02 is very similar to what is required by the Elcon charger with some small changes to IDs, heartbeat timers, structures and scaling. I haven't compiled firmware before and expect there it be a number of barriers when it comes to the supporting files etc. Hopefully I can receive some support from Maxkgo.

 

[bunya]

We're getting close now!

Dry fit is looking good, just needs a minor tweak with the spacers to get the chainline perfect
There will be just enough room for the foot brake.
Unfortunately QS didn't align the motor as per their CAD drawing. Where the phase wires exit is 90° out. As such the phase wires exit right next to the swingarm and the RHS motor mount doesn't align with existing engine mounts, because the holes are out by 30°. We'll have to disassemble the front of the motor and rotate it either 90° or 60° depending what holes are available in the stator housing.


FYI, I don't recommend the Amazon yamaha 200 blaster sprockets they are about 1-2mm to big on the shaft and super loose, I'm sure they will fail on the first full throttle pull! Just need it to confirm the gear ratio before upgrading to a quality custom made one.

I'll be wiring up the 96V EM260S GTSP tomorrow, including the small loom to get throttle and modes switchs to the controller.
The controller has 961000 etched on the side so it might be more powerful than I first though. 1000phase amps should absolutely hammer.

 

[Cali Yang]

Glad to hear it

 

[bunya]

Glad to hear it

Thanks, I haven't heard anything back from Ennoid yet, I think he is focussed on the existing proprietary line of products. I may need to pursue updating v5.02 of the firmware with the Elcon charger code and look to you and Maxkgo for support.

 

[bunya]

The motor has been disassembled and rotated 90° to align with the design. This involved making a puller and tapping out the existing M6 bolts to M8. The motor appears to be very well made with a heap of iron in the rotor and stator, no wonder they can churn out the torque!

The chain alignment issue has also been sorted.
Next step is to finish the batteries and bench test the charger with a CC/CV CAN bus hack using the adafruit shield.

 

[Easty_au]

noob question, is the phase amps the max ur battery can output for like 3 seconds etc? battery i'm looking at for my quad is 133ah - 2c continuous 3c for 30 sec or 4c for 3 sec (assume i'd have the 4c for "boost" on the throttle?)

 

[bunya]

noob question, is the phase amps the max ur battery can output for like 3 seconds etc? battery i'm looking at for my quad is 133ah - 2c continuous 3c for 30 sec or 4c for 3 sec (assume i'd have the 4c for "boost" on the throttle?)

Haha, all good. Phase amps is the current that leaves the controller into the motor, it relates to how much torque the motor can produce but isn't equal to battery current, especially at low rpm.
One way to of it is that the motor has a dependency between voltage and speed. At low speed the voltage is low which means for the same power limit (battery limit) the motor can receive more current and generate more torque.

In my build I'll start with 250 battery amps and 800 phase amps but my battery and controller can do approx 500 amps (1000 phase anps max) for 30s on sport mode.

 

[Easty_au]

Haha, all good. Phase amps is the current that leaves the controller into the motor, it relates to how much torque the motor can produce but isn't equal to battery current, especially at low rpm.
One way to of it is that the motor has a dependency between voltage and speed. At low speed the voltage is low which means for the same power limit (battery limit) the motor can receive more current and generate more torque.

In my build I'll start with 250 battery amps and 800 phase amps but my battery and controller can do approx 500 amps (1000 phase anps max) for 30s on sport mode.

Still not alot clearer, but thanks mate. Can you set the phase amps on controller too high for your battery and cause damage?

 

[dominik h]

My scooter has set 1400A phase and 400A battery current. For high starting tourqe you need as much phase amps as the motor can handle. More phase amps more tourque.
At 30kph the controller reaches with 1400pA the 400A limit for battery current. From there on the set battery limit reduces the phase current. The battery can not be damaged from high phase current settings. Only the motor wires and windings and probably the magnets in the motor.

In the graph below (0-120kph) you see the rising battery current (blue line) from a standstill with full throttle. Battery current raises in the first 1.5 seconds and then the controller limits to 400A.


Running at topspeed 125kph the phase current drops down to 160A and the battery current is then around 220A.

 

[bunya]

Still not alot clearer, but thanks mate. Can you set the phase amps on controller too high for your battery and cause damage?

Nah phase amps won't damage the battery, you set them based on the motor rating. The controller will throttle back the phase amps automatically to honour the battery current limit like @Dominik showed in this screenshot.

 

[Easty_au]

My scooter has set 1400A phase and 400A battery current. For high starting tourqe you need as much phase amps as the motor can handle. More phase amps more tourque.
At 30kph the controller reaches with 1400pA the 400A limit for battery current. From there on the set battery limit reduces the phase current. The battery can not be damaged from high phase current settings. Only the motor wires and windings and probably the magnets in the motor.

In the graph below (0-100kph) you see the rising battery current (blue line) from a standstill with full throttle. Battery current raises in the first 1.5 seconds and then the controller limits to 400A.
View attachment 356736

Running at topspeed 125kph the phase current drops down to 160A and the battery current is then around 220A.

Great explanation thanks mate, makes alot more sense now

 

[bananu7]

Thanks for the writeup, looks like a really well-planned build. I'm hoping to pick up an unfinished conversion soon where the biggest hurdle left is creating the battery enclosure and mount; your post was very inspirational, i wasn't sure what thickness of aluminium to use, glad to see that 2mm seems to be the sweet spot.

How many mounting tabs will the covers use? I saw just two, one on top and one on the bottom, though it's hard to see just from the pics. I've seen designs from ELMOFO in Australia that used small screws (i imagine either tapped directly or into a threaded steel bar behind) all around the cover perimeter. That seems like a very sturdy if extremely frustrating to undo solution, but then again the hope is that the battery will never have to come undone. Especially with the epoxy fiberglass (0.5mm), thermal insulator (2mm) and extra rubber you mentioned - all noted

Also, how are you planning on sealing the cover?

 

[bunya]

Thanks for the writeup, looks like a really well-planned build. I'm hoping to pick up an unfinished conversion soon where the biggest hurdle left is creating the battery enclosure and mount; your post was very inspirational, i wasn't sure what thickness of aluminium to use, glad to see that 2mm seems to be the sweet spot.

How many mounting tabs will the covers use? I saw just two, one on top and one on the bottom, though it's hard to see just from the pics. I've seen designs from ELMOFO in Australia that used small screws (i imagine either tapped directly or into a threaded steel bar behind) all around the cover perimeter. That seems like a very sturdy if extremely frustrating to undo solution, but then again the hope is that the battery will never have to come undone. Especially with the epoxy fiberglass (0.5mm), thermal insulator (2mm) and extra rubber you mentioned - all noted

Also, how are you planning on sealing the cover?

Hey mate, the cover has 4 mounting tabs. For the seal, I was originally planning to use a rubber U seal but I didn't quite give the lid enough space for the additional 1.5mm space. This is the seal profile Weather Strip U Channel 6mm x 7.75mm
The idea was it would seal on the side and top with the clamping pressure.

 

[bunya]

It's been a while but I finally have some progress to post.
All but finished one side of the battery, just need to wire in 5 temp probes and cut some foam and glass sheet to protect the terminals from shorting against the lid.
I'm super happy with how it came together, the cells are snug and have plenty of compression, thanks @amberwolf

 

[bunya]

Well the LHS case is much more space constrained. I didn't quite gauge how much room 50mm2 cable takes up amongst the other items including the contactor, SSR, din mounted fuses and BMS master and slave. It's coming together but serviceability won't be great. Hopefully I don't encounter too many issues once it's all together

 

[jkrienert]

What a fit...