Latest Report from LiFeBATT

[Battboy]

LiFeBATT is currently privately held, but we are issuing stock in the company and we are planning to go public eventually. If you are interested contact me off list or thru the LiFeBATT website.

Don Harmon

 

[safe]

This is a stock that will rise...

If you are successful you could find yourself very rich at the end of all this.

 

[TylerDurden]

Don't be too sure about the rise of new battery stocks. There are major players already entrenched and the flood of cheap knockoffs is over the levee.

:?

 

[safe]

Don't be too sure about the rise of new battery stocks. There are major players already entrenched and the flood of cheap knockoffs is over the levee.

In life the optimist doesn't always win, but the pessimist always fails.

 

[TylerDurden]

In life the optimist doesn't always win, but the pessimist always fails.

Tell that to the successful short-sellers.

 

[mazott]

My guess is that a system designed for 10C that is always run at 10C will wear out pretty fast if you also discharge them fully no matter how carefully you manage them.

A battery designed for 10C that is run at 5C (or even 1C) and not completely discharged with each cycle will likely last as long as the longest calender life of the batteries allows.

LifeBatt cells have:
Nominal Capacity 10000 mAh
Minimum Capacity 9000 mAh
Cycle Life (minimum) 3,000 cycles, Capacity 7200 mAh

How does 7200mAh mesh with 9000/10000 mAh? Does it mean that 3000 cycles are guaranteed only in case the usage pattern does not go past the 7200mAh threshold in each and every cycle?
Thanks

 

[Ypedal]

A battery that can provide 10C discharge and remain cool and within operating voltage should not be a problem if used in this way..

When a 2C battery is pushed at 5C or 10C and gets boiling hot.. expect it to die early.

I read it as 3000 cycles later, it should still have 7200 mah capacity remaining.

 

[mazott]

I read it as 3000 cycles later, it should still have 7200 mah capacity remaining.

If that confirmed, many more than 3000 cycles might be guaranteed, at least in theory. Does it sound reasonable for a lithium-based battery? Could it be thought of as a "decay rate" for such chemistry, whereby the LifeBATT batteries sport unusual longevity, while other LiFePO4's do not?

 

[Ypedal]

The catch 22 here is that in order for the cycle life to happen.. proper battery management has to be enforced.. if you run without a BMS and abuse one or more cells from unballanced situations.. etc... it all cut into cycle life..

But.. in a perfect world, with peak charge set to 3.65v.. never go below 2.x V .. etc.. there is real reason to beleive that this many cycles is totally possible.

Like many things.. not created equal, some materials are better than others.. manufacturing tolerances and assembly techniques all play a role.. Chargers that operate consistently without failure.. etc...

Then slap in some real life to the picture and us winter bound people will never come close to 3000 cycles within 10 years..

 

[TylerDurden]

Like many things.. not created equal, some materials are better than others..

The separator films, for example:

Exxon Mobil wants piece of hybrid market
by Russell Gold
The Wall Street Journal March 12, 2008
BAYTOWN, Texas –

Exxon Mobil Corp., the world’s largest gasoline refiner, wants a piece of the hybrid-car market.

After filling automobile gas tanks for decades, the company has started looking under the hood.

It’s betting that further development of a component it created for cellphone batteries can help improve a new type of battery that may eventually power most hybrid cars. If it’s right, Exxon could play a part in ushering in a new generation of hybrid and electric cars, lessening the world’s reliance on gasoline.

Exxon won’t make the actual batteries, but its scientists have developed a plastic "separator" film that is already a critical part of lithium-ion batteries. As these batteries become more powerful - and if Exxon can keep them from exploding - they are expected to make the jump into hybrid cars.

At first blush, Exxon’s embrace of "green" hybrid technology may seem surprising - especially for a company whose executives scoffed for years at the idea that fossil fuels were causing global warming.

But even as it hunts the earth for new supplies of oil and natural gas, Exxon has worked on developing alternative energy technology.

The company, which has big plastic and chemical operations, isn’t keen on the long-term prospects for biofuels, but it is bullish on the hybrid market.

It believes that these gasoline sippers will grab a larger share of new-vehicle sales than the federal government forecasts.

"We are interested in good business opportunities, and that is what this is," says Jim Harris, senior vice president of Exxon’s chemical company.

At the heart of Exxon’s effort is its belief - shared by many in the marketplace - that the current workhorse powering hybrid cars, the nickel-metal hydride battery, will soon be replaced by lighter, smaller and more powerful lithium-ion batteries.

One thing holding that back: a history of lithium-ion batteries inside laptops overheating and bursting into flames.

Working in a building next to Exxon’s giant gasoline refinery in southeast Texas, Exxon researchers have developed a more heat-resistant separator film that is capable of tolerating temperatures up to 374 degrees, says Peter Roth, a researcher at Sandia National Laboratories. That’s about 85 degrees more than its competitors’ films can take. "It gives you a larger safety margin," he says.

Exxon is no Johnny-come-lately to the lithium-ion battery market.

An Exxon scientist first started talking about the idea of a lithium-based battery in 1976, and in 1991, its separator film was used in the first commercially produced lithium-ion batteries for Sony Corp. cellphones.

Today, its separators are used in about 35 percent of the lithium-ion batteries used in electronic devices.

Exxon would like to have at least that much market share in the new generation of car batteries adopted by Toyota Motor Corp., Ford Motor Co. and other car makers.

To achieve that, Exxon has dedicated 14 Ph.D.s in Japan, New Jersey and Texas to improving the technology.

It expects to break ground soon on a $300 million manufacturing facility in Gumi, South Korea, according to people familiar with the plan.

"We’re going to put our corporate muscle behind this and make it a reality," says Harris.

Exxon faces plenty of competition. Polypore International Inc.’s Celgard unit and Japan’s Asahi Kasei Chemicals Corp. are among the companies working on competing technology.

Cost - as well as safety and durability over a vehicle’s life is a key issue, and Exxon’s product is relatively pricey, says Menahem Anderman, president of Total Battery Consulting in Oregon House, Calif. "It is a race and (Exxon) is one of the forerunners, but I would not guess where we will be in five years," Anderman says.

Adding to the risks: The hybrid car market may not grow as expected, and Exxon’s technology could be eclipsed by other new approaches.

Patents are starting to pile up for a solid electrolyte battery and for a ceramic membrane to keep the negatively charged anode from touching the positively charged cathode.

Both technologies could make plastic separator film unnecessary. Nickel-metal hydride batteries could also be upgraded enough to overtake the improvements in lithium-ion batteries.

"It will take years before we know," says Tom Neslage, chief executive of Cobasys LLC, which makes automotive nickel-metal hydride batteries. Cobasys is half-owned by oil-giant Chevron Corp., which Mr. Neslage says has spent nearly $400 million since 2001 to develop the company.

But for now, most of the industry is betting on lithium-ion batteries. Anderman estimates a $1 billion market will develop for the batteries within the next 10 years.

The separator-film component will represent about 12 percent of the total battery-pack cost.

Though that’s tiny compared with the crude-oil market, Exxon has compelling reasons to participate. Its separator is already very profitable.

Even within the 34 percent return on capital boasted by Exxon’s chemical unit, the profit from the separator business is above average.

And hybrid-car batteries are driving other new technology. Whichever company finds a way to make better vehicle batteries at a lower price will probably be able to grab a big part of the much larger portable electronics market.

Driving down the price of separator film remains a big stumbling block.

The automobile industry wants separator-film suppliers to cut the price in half without giving up safety features, says Ted J. Miller, Ford’s senior manager of energy storage and research.

Figuring out how to do that could require a hefty up-front investment, giving cash-rich Exxon an advantage. "I need people with deep pockets. Exxon Mobil has deep pockets," says Miller.

Exxon talked about its aspirations in the emerging hybrid-car market - and potentially the plug-in electric-car market - for the first time publicly at the Electric Vehicle Symposium in Anaheim, Calif., in December.

The oil giant’s booth there drew stares and more than a few snickers.

"The irony was certainly not lost on us," says Catherine Scrimgeour, who ran a booth near Exxon’s for Zenn Motor Co., which makes electric cars.


http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=86984

 

[Battboy]

YPedal has basically answered the question and provided the stipulations for a proper BMS & Charger solution. In our lab tests we have passed 3,000 deep discharge cycles and still retain 80% of the original power spec. So in theory you could exceed 20,000 shallow discharge cycles with our 40138 Cells, and this will be reported officially in April when Sandia publishes their government test report.

In real world hard environmental testing - all LiFePO4 has basically the same challenge which is to prove how well they hold up over a long time period of use in Electric Vehicles.

Best,

Don Harmon

 

[mazott]

Don, can I ask further, if not already answered somewhere else, the difference between nominal and minimum capacity, as reported in the specs? Thanks

 

[Ypedal]

Nominal = Rated capacity ( if you drain slowly ie: 1C ) 10ah

Minimal = In worst case situation under high-load 9 ah

At least i think that's what it means lol

 

[Battboy]

Once Again, YPedal is correct! You want a job selling batteries ?

Don

 

[Ypedal]

You want a job selling batteries ?

Don

Hehe.. that's the eventual plan.. but i have to find the " Right batteries " to sell first ! And it's a hard find.. or i'm too fussy. :lol:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

In our lab tests we have passed 3,000 deep discharge cycles and still retain 80% of the original power spec

Is this a different set of lab tests to the ones you were having done at Sandia?

Earlier, the charge/discharge test regime that you reported as being conducted by Sandia, on your behalf, was only 10% deep, either side of 50% SOC, as I recall, so was a very shallow cycle test. If these cells really have now been tested from 100% to, say, 10% SOC (or something similar) and do 3000 cycles as you say, then that's pretty good.

It's be great if we could have confirmation of this, as there really is a dearth of good, objective, data on the performance of cells of all types.

Jeremy

 

[Battboy]

Yes it's true, but since these tests were done in our factory and have been going on for two years I felt people would just say
that it's not indepenent, so I haven't made a big deal about it. The Sandia Report is due out early April and will be on their website.

Best,

Don Harmon