Leaf 48V 1000 Watt DD Motor for Tadpole Trike?

[LeftieBiker]

About a year ago, I bought a Demo tadpole trike from SixThreeZero.com. It was supposed to have a 1 year mechanical-only warranty, but when it died after one week, they ripped me off. Told me they had shipped a new controller (nope), would soon ship one (no again) and would order me one (you guessed it). So despite major physical impairment I have been trying to get it running so I can ride again. A new controller (OEM no longer available) just showed me that the geared hubmotor had died instantly and silently. So, enlisting the help of Google's AI, I went shopping. I don't like geared motors because they get loud after a year, and I hate loud motors. My otherwise Crap Golden motor 999 watt DD conversion bike could easily climb all of the local hills, so I settled for a 1000 watt 48/52 volt Leaf Motor at the suggestion of the Ai. The listing is filled with contradictory gibberish like 'Direct Drive gears' and 'gearless' but it looks like they shipped me a DD motor kit. Now, belatedly, I am worrying that this may be a gutless wonder on hills, and my strength is now very limited. So do I just order a geared setup and try to eat $ returning the DD, or is there some hope that because it's on a 20" wheel, it may actually climb hills...?

 

[E-HP]

About a year ago, I bought a Demo tadpole trike from SixThreeZero.com. It was supposed to have a 1 year mechanical-only warranty, but when it died after one week, they ripped me off. Told me they had shipped a new controller (nope), would soon ship one (no again) and would order me one (you guessed it). So despite major physical impairment I have been trying to get it running so I can ride again. A new controller (OEM no longer available) just showed me that the geared hubmotor had died instantly and silently. So, enlisting the help of Google's AI, I went shopping. I don't like geared motors because they get loud after a year, and I hate loud motors. My otherwise Crap Golden motor 999 watt DD conversion bike could easily climb all of the local hills, so I settled for a 1000 watt 48/52 volt Leaf Motor at the suggestion of the Ai. The listing is filled with contradictory gibberish like 'Direct Drive gears' and 'gearless' but it looks like they shipped me a DD motor kit. Now, belatedly, I am worrying that this may be a gutless wonder on hills, and my strength is now very limited. So do I just order a geared setup and try to eat $ returning the DD, or is there some hope that because it's on a 20" wheel, it may actually climb hills...?

The Leaf with a 20” wheel will probably perform at least as well as the Golden motor. The Leaf is around 90% efficient vs 80%-85% for the golden motor, which makes a big difference on hills and overheating. But, you don’t mention your speed requirements and which winding you chose, or your battery or controller current capabilities, or the grade of your hills.
Their specs state: “Max speed: 38 mph Default (Optional other speed: 30mph or 25mph,15mph.. please leave message” and the lower speed motors have a higher turn count giving them more torque on hills, and less heat, albeit a lower top speed.

 

[Apartunis]

Their specs state: “Max speed: 38 mph Default (Optional other speed: 30mph or 25mph,15mph.. please leave message” and the lower speed motors have a higher turn count giving them more torque on hills, and less heat, albeit a lower top speed.

One of the facts I remember about hub motors is that a given motor will make a fixed amount of heat to deliver a fixed amount of torque no matter the number of turns, assuming equal copper fill. .

 

[neptronix]

20" wheel with 30mm 9C style stator ( what leafbike refers to as a 1000w motor ) has a lot of torque potential for hill climbing. And great speed potential too.

Magic pie or RH212 is better due to the taller diameter and additional poles but with a 20" wheel, the benefit is much less than versus a 700c, and in fact, at higher speeds ( ~40mph? ) this becomes detrimental for efficiency in 20" wheel to have too many poles, due to increased iron losses.

Short version: you have the right motor for the job

 

[E-HP]

One of the facts I remember about hub motors is that a given motor will make a fixed amount of heat to deliver a fixed amount of torque no matter the number of turns, assuming equal copper fill. .

Thanks. I misspoke in that last sentence. The heat comment was mainly based on the efficiency difference.

 

[Apartunis]

Thanks. I misspoke in that last sentence. The heat comment was mainly based on the efficiency difference.

The Leaf motor will for sure have less heat to get rid of at any given power or torque.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Great news - thanks! I don't need a lot of speed. In fact, I may not be able to ride even the tadpole because of balance issues. I did ride it for about a week before it died, and before my balance failed suddenly. The trike is happiest going no faster than 20MPH, although I did have it up to about 25, once. I had a long chat with an AI while shopping for a new drive system, and we had an idea that I don't know if I like or not: the trike has a fairly robust front rack, mounted about halfway up the steering tube, and the AI seemed to LOVE the idea of mounting my 20AH LiFePo4 battery there, in some sort of robust bag. With the mid-frame battery removed, and the heavy DD wheel in the rear, the weight balance should be close to 50/50. My concern is that the tilting front wheels, which lean WAY DOWN, might not react well. I do hope to limit their range of tilting motion somewhat...

 

[Papa]

....I had a long chat with an AI while shopping for a new drive system, and we had an idea that I don't know if I like or not: the trike has a fairly robust front rack, mounted about halfway up the steering tube, and the AI seemed to LOVE the idea of mounting my 20AH LiFePo4 battery there, in some sort of robust bag. With the mid-frame battery removed, and the heavy DD wheel in the rear, the weight balance should be close to 50/50. My concern is that the tilting front wheels, which lean WAY DOWN, might not react well. I do hope to limit their range of tilting motion somewhat.

Can you share an image (or link) of this "Demo tadpole trike" please?

 

[LeftieBiker]

No problem. This trike is/was sold by two or three online companies like Addmotor and the Crooks at Sixthreezero. There is an early version of it that was a Disaster and unsafe. This one only has the issue where the tilting front wheels will happily dump the trike on its side if the steering isn't held centered. It does have steel weights on the front steering arms. This is the actual Demo I bought. They were apparently too rough with it and loosened a sensor or two in the geared Bafang 750 watt motor. I have photos of it taken at home, but I'm having trouble finding them at the moment.

 

[PaPaSteve]

There is plenty of experience on this site that can offer advise on your the motor / controller problems.

A couple points I can offer about the mechanical leaning trike.
First off, a leaning trike operates like a bicycle, it needs the rider to have functional balance.
Second, this trike has wagon steering not kingpin steering like what a car would use.
What's that mean ?
Wagon type steering will "bump steer".
That is : should one of the front tires hit a bump it will cause the trike to veer off course.
Example, hit a bump with the left tire the trike will veer left.
Weight balance : The trike appears to have most of the weight carried by the rear axle.
This can lead to an easy tip over moment.
The more body weight a person has, the more severe the problem will be.
In general terms trikes should be designed to carry the bulk of the weight (66%) on the wide axle.
This rule of thumb applies to any trike configuration.

"" It was supposed to have a 1 year mechanical-only warranty ""
To me, this statement implies the electronics has no warranty.

Review product video from 1:45 to 2 minutes

1 REVERSE FAT TIRE TADPOLE ETRIKE

This is "1 REVERSE FAT TIRE TADPOLE ETRIKE" by sixthreezero on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

 

[Papa]

First off, a leaning trike operates like a bicycle, it needs the rider to have functional balance.

Basically true.

Worthy of Note, linked below: Of perhaps the 12 or more (I did not count) "first time riders" of said tilting trike, NONE were senior citizens. And it'd be a safe bet that most, if not all of the selected "first time riders", either owned or had ridden a bicycle previously.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MsjuE2sRik

In general terms trikes should be designed to carry the bulk of the weight (66%) on the wide axle.
This rule of thumb applies to any trike configuration.

The 66/33% weight distribution rule only applies to non-tilting trikes - NOT tilters.

 

[PaPaSteve]

The 66/33% weight distribution rule only applies to non-tilting trikes - NOT tilters.

Agreed, good catch.
However if there are any limit stops to the lean motion this would complicate the dynamics.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You can stop it from falling over simply by holding the steering bars centered. I never actually fell off of it, but I was extremely grateful on one occasion for my housemate's car being parked within arm's length of where I meant to dismount. The other thing to be careful of with these trikes is they they are VERY sensitive to high crowns on roads.

To refocus a bit: the reason the trike died is now pretty much Moot. Something in the hubmotor died. I have a new, 1KW DD (I hate that geared motors get loud so soon because of those plastic gears, or because metal gears are loud from Day One.) en route. I wanted to know if that particular motor/wheel combo would work. I've been told it will work fine, so I am Conditionally Elated. The reason I think I MAY be able to still ride it is that my balance issue is NOT inner-ear related. It is related to the nerves in my feet, primarily, and those nerves are NOT used in balancing on a bicycle - I can still ride an upright exercise bike.

This still leaves the battery location issue. The mid-frame battery holder I bought from Ebay to replace the OEM controller-holder combination turned out to be more of a battery isolation device, so if I can't use that front rack (the basket is separate, with the rack being much more solid) to hold my 25lb LiFePo4 battery, I need to get another one, or mount it somewhere else. Putting the battery there should, with that heavy DD motor in back, produce great weight balance front-rear, but I don't know how the tilt steering would be affected...

 

[LeftieBiker]

It was supposed to have a 1 year mechanical-only warranty ""
To me, this statement implies the electronics has no warranty.

No, the electronics are covered. They meant that any cosmetic damage on arrival would not be covered - no replacement body parts for scratches or dings. They never claimed it wasn't covered when I made the warranty request. They said all the right things, in a friendly way, and just never actually sent me a SINGLE PART. Nada. I noted this on...Trust Pilot? They addressed all the other negative reviews there, but ignore mine.

A small request, folks: look at my member rating and posts here before assuming I'm a newbie. I've been doing this for about 2 decades. I'm new to tadpole trikes (although I did ride this one about 50 miles over a week) but not to ebikes.

 

[PaPaSteve]

My apologies for misinterpreting your words.
THX for the correction.

 

[LeftieBiker]

No worries. Now here is the rack I'm considering to hold my LiFePo4 20AH battery. I *seem* to remember it being rated for something like 60lbs, but I'm not at all sure of that. Odd: it SEEMS to attach, but doesn't show up after loading. (Message: "parsing response failed." Too big?) I'll shrink it later and try again. Anyway, this evening I replaced the HORRIBLE OEM thumb shifter with a 7 speed Shimano dual lever unit. I left the Tourney derailleur in place despite the AI saying it wasn't compatible.MUCH better.