Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[DaLanMan]

Amber, with all due respect, you do worse things to ebike's than ever happened at GitMo.
I have seen them giant wiggle worms of doom, that has gotta be a couple hundo's of puppies.

I mean in fur weight alone your trike should be going to a convention in Geneva...

 

[Bullfrog]

Guys, Thanks for the comments/info on the MXUS motor. IMO Amberwolf's comment "It did work alright between breakages." pretty much sums up what I have been able to learn about the MXUS 3K Turbo motor .

I still plan on installing my 4T Leaf motor and I am going to try it on 52v as well as 72v just to see the difference in performance.

 

[Bullfrog]

If I have a 72v Battery and Controller, is there any reason I shouldn't power my Leaf 1500w motor with it?

I don't know of any reason it shouldn't be done but I just wanted to ask to make sure I am not missing something.

FWIW, I just unpackaged my 1500w motor that I ordered laced to the Wide 26" rim and the quality of the lacing as well as the spokes, nipples, and rim all look very good. In my case, I am glad I ordered my motor laced to the rim but I have no idea about the quality of the other spokes/rims that Leaf uses.

 

[neptronix]

I ran a 4T with 80A controller and 72v lipo.
The only reason you shouldn't run this voltage is if you don't like really high speeds. I hit almost 60mph.

 

[E-HP]

I don't know of any reason it shouldn't be done but I just wanted to ask to make sure I am not missing something.

FWIW, I just unpackaged my 1500w motor that I ordered laced to the Wide 26" rim and the quality of the lacing as well as the spokes, nipples, and rim all look very good. In my case, I am glad I ordered my motor laced to the rim but I have no idea about the quality of the other spokes/rims that Leaf uses.

Throttle can be sensitive down low, but if you’ve run 72v before, it shouldn’t be an issue.

I ordered the wide 26” rim as well, but decided to go 24” after it arrived. The rim looks decent, as was the lacing. I’ll reuse the rim on my old motor that has a crappy Chinese rim.

 

[Chalo]

FWIW, I just unpackaged my 1500w motor that I ordered laced to the Wide 26" rim and the quality of the lacing as well as the spokes, nipples, and rim all look very good. In my case, I am glad I ordered my motor laced to the rim but I have no idea about the quality of the other spokes/rims that Leaf uses.

There are two characteristic problems with wheels that come from motor sellers. They almost always use spokes that are too thick for good wheel strength and reliability, and they usually lace them inside the flanges which exaggerates the effect of wheel dish, reduces resistance to side loads, and reduces lateral stiffness. Less commonly, they will use cross-2 lacing even though that causes the spokes to insert to the rim at a bad angle.

Even the well built, decent quality examples I've seen, like the wheels from Jump bikes, have these problems that can only be addressed by relacing the wheel correctly.

 

[neptronix]

I found my motor from ~2014 had the best wheel build of any cheap Chinese motor i'd bought. Didn't even need a true out of the box.

Enjoy!

 

[Bullfrog]

Throttle can be sensitive down low, but if you’ve run 72v before, it shouldn’t be an issue.

I ordered the wide 26” rim as well, but decided to go 24” after it arrived. The rim looks decent, as was the lacing. I’ll reuse the rim on my old motor that has a crappy Chinese rim.

E-HP....thanks for the comment. Are you going to lace your existing motor in a 24" rim? If yes, what rim are you going to use (thanks)? I am seriously considering either buying just the leaf motor (not a kit) laced in a 24" rim or buying just the motor and having my LBS lace it. But I am going to try mine in the 26" wide rim before I decided. The smaller wheel and a higher Kv really is the best way to achieve your desired top speed as opposed to a larger diameter wheel and a lower Kv. The larger diameter wheel is a contributor to over heating since the diameter of the wheel determines the gearing.

I also seriously considered lacing my motor in a 20" fat tire rim but after researching 20" tires and rims all day, I realized it might have to get "Radial" lacing i.e. no cross pattern. Radial is where the spokes go straight out to the rim without any angling and none of the spokes cross each other....it is a very weak lacing pattern. If I had it to do over again, I'd buy my Leaf motor laced in a 24" rim since that allows a one cross lacing pattern...not the best but very acceptable and much better than Radial.

 

[Bullfrog]

I ran a 4T with 80A controller and 72v lipo.
The only reason you shouldn't run this voltage is if you don't like really high speeds. I hit almost 60mph.

Thanks...That is an excellent data point.

Did you run any cooling fluid in your motor?

What diameter rim did you run?

Thanks for the comment on the "quality" of Leaf's work.

 

[Bullfrog]

There are two characteristic problems with wheels that come from motor sellers. They almost always use spokes that are too thick for good wheel strength and reliability, and they usually lace them inside the flanges which exaggerates the effect of wheel dish, reduces resistance to side loads, and reduces lateral stiffness. Less commonly, they will use cross-2 lacing even though that causes the spokes to insert to the rim at a bad angle.

Even the well built, decent quality examples I've seen, like the wheels from Jump bikes, have these problems that can only be addressed by relacing the wheel correctly.

I agree.

Leaf used 12g spokes for my build and the spokes alternate inside/outside on the hub so 50% are correct . Ideal IMO would be :

SAPIM E-STRONG SINGLE BUTTED 12/13G SPOKES and SAPIM BRASS POLYAX NIPPLES​

 

[neptronix]

Thanks...That is an excellent data point.

Did you run any cooling fluid in your motor?

What diameter rim did you run?

Thanks for the comment on the "quality" of Leaf's work.

No cooling fluid, ferrofluid was a twinkle in justin_le's eyes back then, and hubsinks didn't exist. I just drilled cooling holes and this was a way more than adequate upgrade.

I used to run 40-45mph continuous. If your ideal continuous speed is lower than this then you won't need cooling modifications.

I ran a 26" with a 2x2 tire. This motor has so much power you don't need to run a smaller wheel to increase the torque. Go ahead and put it on a 29er.

 

[Chalo]

Ideal IMO would be :

SAPIM E-STRONG SINGLE BUTTED 12/13G SPOKES and SAPIM BRASS POLYAX NIPPLES​

Whether those would be appropriate depends on the rim, and whether it's rated/capable of supporting 140kgf per spoke tension without problems. A few rims are rated that high: Alex and Ryde make some I'm aware of.

Because 13ga spokes have 37% more cross-sectional area than 14ga spokes, they are only as stable and resilient at 137kgf as 14ga spokes are at 100kgf (a tension that almost any bicycle rim will tolerate).

E-Strong spokes have the advantage of fitting most hub motors and most bicycle rims without additional washers or having to drill components. But the disadvantage is they have to be turned up very tight to stay taut, which can cause some rims to crack or pucker, or even to buckle under the compression.

 

[Bullfrog]

No cooling fluid, ferrofluid was a twinkle in justin_le's eyes back then, and hubsinks didn't exist. I just drilled cooling holes and this was a way more than adequate upgrade.

I used to run 40-45mph continuous. If your ideal continuous speed is lower than this then you won't need cooling modifications.

I ran a 26" with a 2x2 tire. This motor has so much power you don't need to run a smaller wheel to increase the torque. Go ahead and put it on a 29er.

Thanks Nep!

Right now I am planning on running one of the tires below on the Leaf 26" wide rim that has ~38mm internal width.
A. Schwalbe Pick Up 26x2.6"
B. Schwalbe Super Moto X 26x2.4"
C. Maxxis Hookworm 26x2.5"

Duro makes a 26x3" tire I like but it has been pretty hard to find at a reasonable price lately. In reality I'll be using a tire I already have in the garage but the ones I listed above would be my preference along with the 3" tire from Duro.

The donor bike I am using is a Schwinn Axum 29er. I'll probably change the crank arms to something shorter and depending on how it handles, I may install a 26" front tire to match the 26" wide rim I am using in the rear.

 

[Bullfrog]

Whether those would be appropriate depends on the rim, and whether it's rated/capable of supporting 140kgf per spoke tension without problems. A few rims are rated that high: Alex and Ryde make some I'm aware of.

Because 13ga spokes have 37% more cross-sectional area than 14ga spokes, they are only as stable and resilient at 137kgf as 14ga spokes are at 100kgf (a tension that almost any bicycle rim will tolerate).

E-Strong spokes have the advantage of fitting most hub motors and most bicycle rims without additional washers or having to drill components. But the disadvantage is they have to be turned up very tight to stay taut, which can cause some rims to crack or pucker, or even to buckle under the compression.

Thanks Chalo.

You make some really good points and I don't think most people realize a smaller diameter spoke can be better, depending on the application, than a larger diameter spoke....because you want to get enough tension in the spoke that you stretch it within its elastic limit to keep it tight. For anyone that doesn't understand "elastic limit" it means it will return to its original length if you remove it from the wheel (it is not permanently deformed).

 

[neptronix]

Bullfrog please see this thread if you're interested in a very puncture proof tire:

Ultimate puncture proof bike tires? testing Kenda K-shield and K-shield Plus

 

[amberwolf]

If it's a useful datapoint, I'm still using Sapim 13/14 butted spokes from Grin, radially laced, on my rear 20" wheels of the SB Cruiser heavy heavy-cargo trike, using some unknown-brand/model rims that were originally used for the first Zero motorcycles (but appear to be some form of BMX rim), and the spokes have survived years of abuse with no suspension and heavy loads, have broken axles and rims without breaking spokes, until the last thing I ran over (whatever it was) that fell off someones truck and went directly under my left wheel, trashing the tire/etc and breaking some spokes (thought I was going to crash from the bump up into the air)...didn't destroy the rim but it's not exactly true anymore :lol: .That was some weeks back.

I've even been able to reuse the spokes when replacing rims or moving the rim/etc to a new hubmotor for different experiements, etc. (normally wouldn't recommend that).


Anyway...I wouldn't go up to 12g myself, at least not if I didn't have a rim I knew was designed to take that.

My front wheel uses typical bicycle spokes; I reused them from some other wheel so I don't know if they were 14 or 15g; it doesn't take as much weight load, but has to take the disc braking forces of slowing / stopping a few hundred pounds of me and the trike and whatever I'm carrying.

 

[DaLanMan]

Spokes and the inner workings of such are basically Hogwarts level mysterious to me. In my youth we regularly jacked rims doing kid stuff,. and there was mysticism around the fact that you could true a rim by adjusting the spokes. No idea if it was true or not, but we all tried, and the repair place charged more for the ones we attempted on...

That said, In the realm of heavy trikes, I have a wee bit of a project I am trying to be working on.. and it includes some interesting tidbits.. I found out that in an old enough vehicle, you can get sag in the spokes. I consulted with known bike expert who agreed that it is a thing. i am hoping to get images this weekend, if/when I do I will happily share them on.

 

[amberwolf]

In my youth we regularly jacked rims doing kid stuff,. and there was mysticism around the fact that you could true a rim by adjusting the spokes.

You can true a rim that has minor variations...but a trashed rim can't be "fixed" this way; the spokes will have such uneven tension that even if you get the rim "true", they're likely to fail*** under any further stress. Don't ask me how I know.


***catastrophically and suddenly, sometimes with a total wheel collapse, and the expected results to the rider...

 

[Bullfrog]

Question for anyone that has added cooling fluid to their Leaf motor...

Do the side covers have an O-ring?

How did you seal the motor so the cooling fluid didn't leak out?

Thanks

 

[neptronix]

Nope, not particularly waterproof. Consider the easy path of running ferrofluid.
If you need even more cooling power, add hubsinks.

 

[E-HP]

E-HP....thanks for the comment. Are you going to lace your existing motor in a 24" rim? If yes, what rim are you going to use (thanks)? I am seriously considering either buying just the leaf motor (not a kit) laced in a 24" rim or buying just the motor and having my LBS lace it. But I am going to try mine in the 26" wide rim before I decided. The smaller wheel and a higher Kv really is the best way to achieve your desired top speed as opposed to a larger diameter wheel and a lower Kv. The larger diameter wheel is a contributor to over heating since the diameter of the wheel determines the gearing.

I laced with a Halo SAS rim, and use 24x2.8 tires, so the diameter is right at 25". It provides a few benefits for my riding, with a small increase in torque for climbing, the extra inch of clearance when straddling the top tube is helpful. Being able to lower my rear rack a little and still have clearance for my controller (mounted under it) also provided my clearance for my suspension seatpost. All minor things, but addressed a bunch of small stuff.
I used the same spoke/nipple combo you mentioned above.

 

[neptronix]

Hey e-hp.. it's you that convinced me to go the way of the 24/26 configuration..

These 9C-type motors with this pole count make maximum power/efficiency in a 20" wheel as that's what they were designed for initially.. going 1/3rd of the way towards that wheel size without compromising pedal clearance much if at all is pretty awesome.

Do you find cornering improves a tad because you now have a lower center of gravity?

Do you find that because the front fork is now at a different angle, high speed stability/turning is better but from 0-5mph the bike is generally wobblier? If so this is another plus i never thought of.

 

[Bullfrog]

Has anybody tried running ATF for a cooling fluid in their Leaf motor?

If yes, what did you do to keep it from leaking between the center section and the side covers?

Thanks

 

[neptronix]

I've never heard of anyone doing that with a DD hub in my time here.
Ferrofluid would be somewhere in the same range of effectiveness but with less way intensity of dripping, if any dripping at all.

The motor will need less additional cooling than you think due to it's way broader efficiency curve vs other motors in it's class.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hey e-hp.. it's you that convinced me to go the way of the 24/26 configuration..

These 9C-type motors with this pole count make maximum power/efficiency in a 20" wheel as that's what they were designed for initially.. going 1/3rd of the way towards that wheel size without compromising pedal clearance much if at all is pretty awesome.

Do you find cornering improves a tad because you now have a lower center of gravity?

Do you find that because the front fork is now at a different angle, high speed stability/turning is better but from 0-5mph the bike is generally wobblier? If so this is another plus i never thought of.

Lowering the rear or raising the front will increase the rake angle which should make any bike more stable at speed but turn left/right slower i.e. you will have to input more motion into the handlebars to get the bike to turn.

Not sure where I am headed next but one option is to take my Schwinn Axum 29er frame and put a 24" wheel with a Leaf motor in it in the rear and a 26" wheel on the front. I also have a crank that has very short crank arms that I would install.

Right now it has a 26" rear wheel with a Leaf motor in it and a 29" front wheel. I plan to leave it like that until I get a chance to try it for a little while. Motor/wheel mounted, still need to mount the controller and battery plus wire everything up...to be continued .