Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Charge to a lower percentage than 100%. Problem solved.

Actually I think he was concerned that the battery would gain too much charge on the long descent. So even if charged sub maximum (at beginning of the descent) the fear is at some point the battery will reach fully charged before getting to the bottom of the hill. That is what I think he meant by "fail safe" because you did originally mention not fully charging if the bike ride begins with a long descent.

 

[neptronix]

If charging your battery to 10% doesn't work because you have some 30 mile hill then you should use a combination of regen and friction brakes ( to save offload the friction brakes; otherwise you'll need a new set of brake pads every other day )

 

[yantra yatra]

Ah

IF I had it to do over again, I'd go with a Leaf 4T motor in a 24" rim and I'd run a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" tire. This is a link to the tire: Schwalbe Pick-Up | Super Defense | Black-Reflex | 26x2.15 | Addix E | 11159144 You have to scroll down a little bit because the 24x2.6" size is not shown in the list at the top right of the page. I know they make them because I have one . As for other 24" tires...the Maxxis Hookworm 24x2.5" is a pretty good option.

With disc brakes, you can use any size wheel you want. Using a frame that came with 29" wheels is going to keep me in the disc brake camp as opposed to rim brakes because I do not know of an easy way to run rim brakes when I install a 24" or a 26" wheel in the frame that came with 29" wheels. My current bike is a Schwinn Axum 29er and I am currently running 26" wheels. I'll eventually lace my motor in a 24" rim and run it in the rear. I did switch to shorter crank arms (92mm) so I won't have pedal strikes every time I turn...with 92mm crank arms, I don't pedal much

Ah, cool, wish I knew they made a 24x2.6, I just bought a 24 x 2.35 pickup. For cargobike with the a DM01 mid drive (Now stopped working). That’s cool if you think you can run smaller wheels on a 29er full sus, I though pedal struck and bottom bracket clearance might be an issue, but prob not too bad with fatter tires
That’s helpful for me in considering the hub drive. You think a 24” wheel with a 2.6” tire would be ok even in a frame built for 27.5” or 29er wheels?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

yantra yantra,

Did you decide on 96v or 48v?

 

[yantra yatra]

I would just stick with 48v for now

 

[Bullfrog]

Ah

Ah, cool, wish I knew they made a 24x2.6, I just bought a 24 x 2.35 pickup. For cargobike with the a DM01 mid drive (Now stopped working). That’s cool if you think you can run smaller wheels on a 29er full sus, I though pedal struck and bottom bracket clearance might be an issue, but prob not too bad with fatter tires
That’s helpful for me in considering the hub drive. You think a 24” wheel with a 2.6” tire would be ok even in a frame built for 27.5” or 29er wheels?

The 24" wheel will work in a frame that came with 26", 27.5", or 29" wheels but there are a few things you'll need to watch out for:

A. Ground Clearance...your bottom bracket will be pretty low and your pedals will hit the road if you turn very sharply. The way I deal with this is I change my crank arms to something shorter. If I don't plan to pedal, I go as short as possible...cranks from a small kids bike usually have crank arms in the 90-120mm range. I try to have my inside pedal at the top of its stroke when I go around a corner and it eliminates pedal strikes as well as gives me the ability to corner faster by putting more weight on my outside pedal which is at the bottom of its stroke.

B. Brakes...if you are running brakes that clamp on the rim, you probably won't be able to change wheel sizes because the pads may not line up with the rim correctly. If you go with disc brakes, you can run any size wheel that will fit in the frame.

C. Steering...if you run a smaller diameter tire than the bike came with, your steering will be a little slower and a little more stable due to the increase in Rake Angle.

 

[Bullfrog]

I would just stick with 48v for now

I would go with a 52v/14s battery if it is legal in your area. 52v/14s is 58.8v when fully charged and will give you a little more speed, a little more capacity/range, and more power with less heat than a lower voltage.

Power=VxA and the "A" is what does the heating. Actually it is the amperage squared so the more you can limit your amperage the cooler you can keep your motor.

Amperage=how many electrons and is proportional to the torque a motor produces up to a point.

Voltage=the push on those electrons or Electromotive Force and is proportional to the speed a motor wants to turn...higher voltage means a higher rpm.

 

[Bullfrog]

I’m back to planning an ebike build for my wife. I’m not sure whether she’ll like it or will stick to it, but I’m also building it with the possibility that I may ride it if she loses interest; so easy to modify for higher performance later. So far I’m set on 60v and 20” rear hub, on a 24” Specialized Hot Rock frame, with front and rear hydraulic brakes (to help with arthritis) and have been scoping out Craigslist.

My question is, is the 2000W 60v motor sold by Leaf the same as the 1500W? I noticed that the performance graph they use in the description is for the 1500w motor. I’ve been assuming that for modeling in the Grin simulator, for the (wife’s) low power mode (20A) and a high power mode (60A) adjusting kv for a 4T wind, but want to make sure that’s a safe assumption.

20 inch 60V 2000W rear hub motor wheel

Convert your 20 inch original bike to ebike with leaf 20 inch 60V 2000W rear hub motor wheel.

www.leafbike.com

I’m too lazy to lace, so I plan on ordering the 20” wide rim, and likely run one thing like Super Moto X tires.

I'd like to know if there is a difference between the 2000w 60v motor and the 1,500w/52v motor as well.

My guess is they are identical but I have not verified it.

Why a 20" wheel instead of a 24"? I prefer a 24" just so I can use a one cross lacing pattern instead of a Radial/Modified Radial pattern which will probably be required with a 20" wheel.

 

[chuyskywalker]

I'd like to know if there is a difference between the 2000w 60v motor and the 1,500w/52v motor as well.

Most likely. I think they just have two or three stator widths they relabel for view count/size listing. I just picked up the "2kw 60v" (see pictures reposted earlier) and it's the same internal configuration as the thread's original 1500w motor. Apparently they've just refined their winding process a bit over the years.

 

[Bullfrog]

Tire diameters....

A. The Schwalbe Pick-Up in size 24x2.6" should have an outside diameter of 637mm (65mm width x 2 + 507 bead seat diameter = 637mm)

B. The same outside diameter 26" tire would be 1.54" wide.

Most bicycle tires have an aspect ratio of 1:1...which means the height is the same as the width AND you have to add the height twice plus the bead seat diameter to get the overall diameter .

 

[Bullfrog]

I asked Leaf if there was any physical difference between the 48/52v 1500w motor and the 60v 2000w motor and their answer is below. "A. is the 2000w motor and B. is the 1500w motor.

A:can work 48v or 52V or 60V
B:recommend work with 48v or 52v battery.Had better not work with 60v battery

Based on everything I can find, I'd say they are the same exact motor with the only variable being the Kv (winding) you choose.

My comments above are regarding the 1500w and 2000w motors that fit in 135mm dropouts. Leaf offers a wider (170mm and 190mm OLD) 2000w motor that may have a different stator.

 

[neptronix]

Well, that response is about as clear as mud and sounds like it's based on the winding, not the design..
The real question to ask is how wide is that stator.

The 1500w motor is worthy of a 2000w or higher rating in a smaller wheel. I think the 1500w motor is closer to 1750W rated in a 26" wheel.

 

[E-HP]

Why a 20" wheel instead of a 24"? I prefer a 24" just so I can use a one cross lacing pattern instead of a Radial/Modified Radial pattern which will probably be required with a 20" wheel.

My wife is shorter and growing shorter, so the lower the better. I’m going the lazy route with the wheel already radially laced. I was originally going to go with a BMX frame, but there’s more room to spread out on the small mtb frame, in case I end up riding it.

Most likely. I think they just have two or three stator widths they relabel for view count/size listing. I just picked up the "2kw 60v" (see pictures reposted earlier) and it's the same internal configuration as the thread's original 1500w motor. Apparently they've just refined their winding process a bit over the years.

Thanks. I read your build thread. It does look like the same motor. Nice to know that they have an extra conductor for a heat sensor, even without ordering the option. My 1500w had a temp sensor, but not compatible with the CA so I swapped it out.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I had dropouts so tight on my 6kw bike that you had to hammer the motor into the dropouts and hammer the torque arms too.
1000+ miles of 4-6kw and 1kw of regen and the axles were just as tight when i decommissioned the bike.
I had to hammer out the dropouts when decommissioning the bike and that tells me i had basically no axle wear.

Were those 3/8" (9.52mm) or 10mm drop outs?

Also do you remember how thick they were?

Steel or aluminum drop out? (I am assuming steel but I thought it would be good to ask anyway)

 

[neptronix]

10mm dropouts and the ebikes.ca torque arms are the key reason for the ultra tight fit. The frame's dropouts were extremely tight to begin with, so that helps.

Drive side was bolted to a lever that hooked onto the chainstays ( notice - ebikes.ca torque arms today use this to increase leverage of the TA )



Brake side used a cut up vbrake lever bolted from the TA to the disk brake adapter.




Was a zero slop setup that never needed to be retightened. No prob with 1kw of regen ( which is A LOT of braking power! )

If you use a good torque arm setup, and the bike's dropout was not abused to the point where it has motion already, you shouldn't have any problems with regen.

 

[Bullfrog]

My wife is shorter and growing shorter, so the lower the better. I’m going the lazy route with the wheel already radially laced. I was originally going to go with a BMX frame, but there’s more room to spread out on the small mtb frame, in case I end up riding it.

Thanks. I read your build thread. It does look like the same motor. Nice to know that they have an extra conductor for a heat sensor, even without ordering the option. My 1500w had a temp sensor, but not compatible with the CA so I swapped it out.

"shorter and growing shorter", I can relate...I have lost about 1.5" in the past 10 years.

Do you have a donor bike yet? I was looking at the Walmart web site for bikes that came with 24" wheels and the biggest issue is whether my 14s6p triangle shaped battery will fit in the frame. The 24" Schwinn Axum appeared to be a reasonable option but I need to find the frame sizes for all the bikes I am considering since they should give me a good idea whether my battery will fit .

 

[E-HP]

"shorter and growing shorter", I can relate...I have lost about 1.5" in the past 10 years.

Do you have a donor bike yet? I was looking at the Walmart web site for bikes that came with 24" wheels and the biggest issue is whether my 14s6p triangle shaped battery will fit in the frame. The 24" Schwinn Axum appeared to be a reasonable option but I need to find the frame sizes for all the bikes I am considering since they should give me a good idea whether my battery will fit .

I'm looking at certain model years of the 24" Specialized Hot Rock and Rip Rock, converted to 20", before bikes started hydroforming the tubes making them all swoopy and hard to mount stuff on. Both come with short travel suspension forks and rear disc brake mounts. I'm going to see if I can fit a LG 21700 16S4P pack under the downtube that should be good for 35A, if going to 20" provides sufficient clearance. Looking at the simulator, it looks like running at 20A would provide good power but still tame (wife mode). 40A+ and it becomes a beast. I'm planning on mounted the controller under a rear rack, and probably some saddle bags to semi-hide the motor. I have to see the bike to find out how big a front chainring I can mount, but on the rear I've scoped out either a 6 speed freewheel (13T), or a single speed (12T). I'll probably go with the latter and get rid of all the derailleur stuff. For the beast mode, I'll parallel two 5Ah 8S 65C lipos and limit to around 60A for fun. I'll use a CA to manage things and have an simple dial to turn power up or down.

Turnigy nano-tech 5000mah 8S 65~130C Lipo Pack w/XT90

More than just a fancy name. TURNIGY nano-tech Lipoly batteries were designed from the ground up with serious performance in mind.

hobbyking.com

Something around this vintage:

 

[Bullfrog]

When lacing a 1500w Leaf motor to a symmetric rim, is there any offset/dish required to get the tire centered in the frame?

Been doing some runs with the Grin Tech Motor Simulator and it looks like I'll need to switch to a 24" rim/tire if I want to keep my temps below 120C. I ran my MAC at 140C but it used different magnets...the Leaf uses N38H magnets and their maximum operating temperature is 120C so I need to be careful. I used the Crystalyte 35xx and the RH212...both with a Kv=13.12 to see what my Leaf motor might do for temps with various batteries and controllers.

Thanks

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

When lacing a 1500w Leaf motor to a symmetric rim, is there any offset/dish required to get the tire centered in the frame?

Been doing some runs with the Grin Tech Motor Simulator and it looks like I'll need to switch to a 24" rim/tire if I want to keep my temps below 120C. I ran my MAC at 140C but it used different magnets...the Leaf uses N38H magnets and their maximum operating temperature is 120C so I need to be careful. I used the Crystalyte 35xx and the RH212...both with a Kv=13.12 to see what my Leaf motor might do for temps with various batteries and controllers.

Thanks

Leaf bike told me the 35mm 7 speed freewheel version does have a dishing offset. They didn't tell me how much though.

You can find out the dishing offset by measuring where the centerline of the axle (more accurately the centerline of the over locknut dimension) compared to the centerline of the spoke flanges.

In the diagram below the dishing offset is a negative number because the rim needs to be moved towards the drive side in order to be centered in the drop outs:



If the rim needs to be moved towards the non drive side in order to be centered in the drop outs (e.g. 100mm or 110mm front hub with disc brake) then dishing offset is positive.

 

[kuromaku]

Some early data from a Leaf "1500W" ordered in early April, 2024:

Config: 35H, "4T," prelaced into an 80mm 406 rim, 170mm dropout fitment, cassette option
Mass: 10.74kg (with spokes, rim, 60cm motor cable, preterminated with ring lugs and a rectangular Hall connector)
Axle: 225mm length, 85mm CL-to-shoulder on both sides, M14-2.0 threads on cassette side, M16-2.0 threads on the brake disc/cable side
Phase wiring: consistent with 4mm² cross sectional area
Ls, LCR bridge @10kHz, 1Vrms: 81µH (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Ls, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply: 83µH (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Rs, 10Adc @ 23°C: 43.5mΩ (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Rs, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply : 47mΩ (with ~60cm phase wiring)
KV, 50.0V supply on homebuilt trap controller: 12.5rpm/V
KV, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply: 12.27rpm/V

There was a white wire in the wiring harness, but I haven't cracked open the motor yet to mod it; not connected to anything on the controller side.

I put a 100-406 tire on it, measured diameter 564mm (~22.2") after calibrating against GPS speed.

I cut off the stock connectors, and reterminated it to a Cusmade L1019 connector to Grin pinout. With a Grin Baserunner L10 at 30A batt/1500W batt/60A phase powering it, I threw it in a Juiced Hyperscorpion chassis, and took it out on a ~110mile ride to Redwood Regional near Oakland for a gathering:


Battery pack was a 14s25p Samsung 35E(1) pack, about 4 years of calendar age. Drew 3577Wh total, with a finishing OCV of 47.8V. Speed was a mix, but mostly at a ~40kph/25mph limit.

Overall: What a beast of a motor! Since I hadn't had time to Statorade it and mount a VESC variant to it, just threw the Baserunner on as a known-good solution. I was wishing for more torque off the line on some of the hills >8%, where I had to really stomp on the pedals to get the bike going, but once in motion, the motor performed pretty nicely for my taste. Definitely interested in seeing what it's capable of in this chassis with a thermistor and something like ~100A of peak phase current.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

So 170mm cassette version is dish-less. Excellent!

 

[neptronix]

Great info!

Seems they tuned 4T down the winding, which is a good thing.
4mm^2 i think translates to 12 gauge wire which is actually what i ran on mine.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Great info!

Seems they tuned 4T down the winding, which is a good thing.
4mm^2 i think translates to 12 gauge wire which is actually what i ran on mine.

Leaf bike told me the 1500 watt 35mm comes with 3mm phase wires and the 42mm comes with 5mm phase wires.

3mm phase wires is also confirmed in some leaf bike listings such as this one:

28 inch 48V 1500W rear electric hub motor kit

Convert your 28 inch original bike to ebike with leaf 28 inch 48V 1500W rear electric hub motor kit.

www.leafbike.com

I wonder if this is an upgrade motor of some type?

Reasons:

- 4mm phase wires rather than 3mm phase wires.
- Kv of 12.27 rather than Kv of 13.12 because of stronger magnets?
-16mm axle diameter on brake side rather than the 14mm of a regular 1500w 35mm hub.
-54mm distance from outside of spoke flange to outside of spoke flange vs. 40mm distance from outside of spoke flange to outside of spoke flange.

170mm 1500w cassette motor:

20 inch 48V 1500W rear hub motor fat bike conversion kit

Convert your 20 inch original beach snow fat bike to electric bike with leaf 20 inch 48V 1500W rear hub motor fat bike conversion kit.

www.leafbike.com

137mm 1500w cassette motor:

28 inch 48V 1500W rear electric hub motor kit

Convert your 28 inch original bike to ebike with leaf 28 inch 48V 1500W rear electric hub motor kit.

www.leafbike.com

P.S. Kuromaku, does this hub take 8-12 speed mtn cassettes (i.e. 35mm Freehub body) or is it limited to just 7 speed cassettes (i.e. 31mm freehub body)?

 

[kuromaku]

P.S. Kuromaku, does this hub take 8-12 speed mtn cassettes (i.e. 35mm Freehub body) or is it limited to just 7 speed cassettes (i.e. 31mm freehub body)?

I'll verify next time I have the motor off, but fairly certain it's a bog-standard HG Spline M at 35mm. It has an HG31 8speed 11-34t on it, and don't recall having to use any spacers on it.

 

[Bullfrog]

Some early data from a Leaf "1500W" ordered in early April, 2024:

Config: 35H, "4T," prelaced into an 80mm 406 rim, 170mm dropout fitment, cassette option
Mass: 10.74kg (with spokes, rim, 60cm motor cable, preterminated with ring lugs and a rectangular Hall connector)
Axle: 225mm length, 85mm CL-to-shoulder on both sides, M14-2.0 threads on cassette side, M16-2.0 threads on the brake disc/cable side
Phase wiring: consistent with 4mm² cross sectional area
Ls, LCR bridge @10kHz, 1Vrms: 81µH (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Ls, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply: 83µH (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Rs, 10Adc @ 23°C: 43.5mΩ (with ~60cm phase wiring)
Rs, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply : 47mΩ (with ~60cm phase wiring)
KV, 50.0V supply on homebuilt trap controller: 12.5rpm/V
KV, Baserunner, 50.0V bench supply: 12.27rpm/V

There was a white wire in the wiring harness, but I haven't cracked open the motor yet to mod it; not connected to anything on the controller side.

I put a 100-406 tire on it, measured diameter 564mm (~22.2") after calibrating against GPS speed.

I cut off the stock connectors, and reterminated it to a Cusmade L1019 connector to Grin pinout. With a Grin Baserunner L10 at 30A batt/1500W batt/60A phase powering it, I threw it in a Juiced Hyperscorpion chassis, and took it out on a ~110mile ride to Redwood Regional near Oakland for a gathering:

View attachment 353140
Battery pack was a 14s25p Samsung 35E(1) pack, about 4 years of calendar age. Drew 3577Wh total, with a finishing OCV of 47.8V. Speed was a mix, but mostly at a ~40kph/25mph limit.

Overall: What a beast of a motor! Since I hadn't had time to Statorade it and mount a VESC variant to it, just threw the Baserunner on as a known-good solution. I was wishing for more torque off the line on some of the hills >8%, where I had to really stomp on the pedals to get the bike going, but once in motion, the motor performed pretty nicely for my taste. Definitely interested in seeing what it's capable of in this chassis with a thermistor and something like ~100A of peak phase current.

The white wire may be used for a temperature sensor...when one is installed.

That is just my guess.