Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

I'd actually be tempted to take a look at Justin's PhaseRunner on a 3T or 4T with a small diameter wheel... sine-wave/FOC in a super tiny package, though it tops out at 40A continuous since it's a 6-fet... If you go with 72 or 96V and an appropriate wind for say, a 14 or 15" motorcycle rim, you might get a really interesting combination. :D Main reason for the tiny rim size is to reduce current consumption to a level where the controller could keep up. Trade current for voltage to match the controller limits. I forget... what are the 4T and 5T RPM/V ratings supposed to be at?
 
Yes, an affordable sinewave/FOC controller would be great! I am going to just order the kit to get going.

Anyone know if the hub offered in the kit is the latest version like is advertised for the standalone? (I asked them, but it died in the translation)

Kit: http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bike-conversion-kit/26-inch-electric-hub-motor-kit/newest-26-inch-48v-1500w-rear-hub-motor-bike-conversion-kit-987.html

Standalone latest version: http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-inch/updated-20-inch-48v-1500w-rear-hub-motor-wheel-1016.html

So, a 5T on a 26" wheel is recommended? I have a 14S battery that I'll be using. I, too, am replacing a MAC that's making the gear grinding noise.
 
For torque and current draw reasons I went with a 5T with 12s. I'll likely bump to 72V later on for more speed but only after I'm confident with the rest of the bike.
 
What micro do they run and where do you get firmware?
 
GmagNeato said:
I know you eventually had some issues with this motor, and wanted to ask: looking back, where would you draw the line on sustainable power this motor can handle? 4000W? Would you consider this max peak? If so what would you consider max continuous? if those watts are more volt heavy can it take much more? I am considering going as high as 24s with adaptto controller for future proofing and using with other motors down the line (possibly MXUS V3 3T) but want to use with leaf motor now and really get the most sustainable power out of it that I can. Not dead-set on Adaptto but I definitely want my next controller purchase to be of the "cry-once" variety. Do you see a benefit in running this high of voltage with 5T, or is it overkill? Should I stick with say 72v lipo and add more later for more powerful motor?
Click to expand...

4000W is a long peak that you can get away with for a while when climbing hills and such.. my time before overheating ( reaching 100C internally ) at 3000W continuous works out to about 5-10 miles when vented, if it's a nice 60-70 degrees out.

Wattage matters more than what combination of volts and amps you chose to use, so base your power figures on wattage.
 
neptronix wrote:
4000W is a long peak that you can get away with for a while when climbing hills and such.. my time before overheating ( reaching 100C internally ) at 3000W continuous works out to about 5-10 miles when vented, if it's a nice 60-70 degrees out.

Wattage matters more than what combination of volts and amps you chose to use, so base your power figures on wattage.
Click to expand...


Wattage says not much as you don't know the efficiency or the percentage of that battery power that is turned into heat.
It's the phase amps and phase voltage (or RPM) what really matters!
reaching 100° at 3000W after 5-10 min with a vented 35mm stator motor i would call quite a POOR SETUP
I bet we could take close to 3000W continuous while keeping it sealed when it's laced into a small wheel keeping RPM high and amps down.
 
Wattage says not much as you don't know the efficiency or the percentage of that battery power that is turned into heat.
It's the phase amps and phase voltage (or RPM) what really matters!
Click to expand...


phase amps and phase voltage correlate with watts. I'm specifically referring to constant cruising watts as a measure of what it can continuously handle.

reaching 100° at 3000W after 5-10 min with a vented 35mm stator motor i would call quite a POOR SETUP
I bet we could take close to 3000W continuous while keeping it sealed when it's laced into a small wheel keeping RPM high and amps down.
Click to expand...


I said miles, not minutes.

No, it will not do close to 3000w continuous. look at the efficiency graph on the first page. That's a lot of heat to shed in a small space. It just won't happen. I eventually always overheat after that many miles at 45mph continuous, which is right where that 3000w continuous mark is.
 
I was enjoying my wifes Ebike hauling ass off road up a long gentle hill and it seems to have cooked its halls.

Motor windings themselves seem OK.
 
I remember seeing hall sensors that have a temp specification.
I think it was mouser.com, one was like 100 and the other temp was 250.
I cant be certain it was even the correct hall sensor, I am sure your general knowledge beats my "I think I saw" by a mile.
 
liveforphysics said:
I was enjoying my wifes Ebike hauling ass off road up a long gentle hill and it seems to have cooked its halls.

Motor windings themselves seem OK.
Click to expand...

Any idea what the motor temp was?

I don't have a formal temp sensor inside of my motor, but i do have a little turnigy IR temp checker, and my motor is vented. So i measure my coil temperature by pointing the turnigy doodad through the vent holes.

I have taken my motor up to about 120-130C without noticing damage or demagnetization, on my rollercoaster-esque terrain here in Utah.. doing 3-4kw up and down hills, from 35-47mph.

I am probably 100w of power or an additional 5 minutes of operation away from melting this motor every time i ride it.

What kind of riding conditions do you have?
 
neptronix said:
4000W is a long peak that you can get away with for a while when climbing hills and such.. my time before overheating ( reaching 100C internally ) at 3000W continuous works out to about 5-10 miles when vented, if it's a nice 60-70 degrees out.

Wattage matters more than what combination of volts and amps you chose to use, so base your power figures on wattage.
Click to expand...

Thanks, this is what I was looking for. 5-10 miles covers my daily commute, so it looks like 3000W should be my safe limit for continuous, creeping up towards 4k on a couple mild hills. I believe yours was a 4T correct? With mine having an extra turn I'm thinking it could sustain similar numbers without being vented (what I'm hoping for) although top speed will not be as high, which is ok. I'm hoping for around 40mph. This will be in a 26" wheel as well.

This is strictly a commuter build in a hard tail (with Thudbuster :)) so I doubt I will change that wheel configuration for this motor - thats what I got the 5T for. Will probably save up for that setup on the MXUS V3 which I will be running between 6-10k watts on a FS downhill frame.
 
Also, just wanted to throw this out there for those who haven't seen or may be looking for a Sinewave controller.

Barent at Kinaye is selling a solid looking (untested by me) SineWave controller using 12 x 3077 Mosfets with 75V 60A max. This seems like it would be a lovely pair with the Leafmotor especially with the 3-way 20/40/60A speed switch. Reasonable price too considering what comes with it. Plus... it's black! 8)

I already ordered the Adaptto, but when I get the MXUS V3 I will most likely order one of these controllers and run it on the commuter with the leafmotor. Great thing is, I originally ordered the kit from Leafmotor with controller (12FET 40A max) / LCD, motor and all, just to get me going. It has served just fine. This Sinewave controller comes with the same LCD etc, so I would have spares! I love redundancy - especially on transportation! :)

I will say rgd the LCD that, although it's not a CA, it gives me most of the info I need. It works well with the temp sensor, and provides real time wattage info (probably not the most accurate), plus all the standard stuff including odometer, tripometer, pas (5 level), cruise and regen. I extracted the switch off one of the crappy ebrakes that came with the kit and epoxied it to my brake. It works flawlessly - And I have a spare from the other brake! So a lot of the stuff that has come with the kit has proven to be useful.
 
neptronix said:
phase amps and phase voltage correlate with watts. I'm specifically referring to constant cruising watts as a measure of what it can continuously handle.
Click to expand...
i hope you understand that battery watts say not much for continuous motor power, because efficiency needs to be considered.
this depends on torque and RPM of the motor. it's a huge difference for instance if you have 50V / 60A or 60V / 50A RMS on the motor side (referred to the 3000W)
No, it will not do close to 3000w continuous. look at the efficiency graph on the first page. That's a lot of heat to shed in a small space. It just won't happen. I eventually always overheat after that many miles at 45mph continuous, which is right where that 3000w continuous mark is.
Click to expand...
the leaf has a peak efficiency of 90%. At 3000W this would mean 300W are turned into heat, right?
from my experience Hubmotors with this size and surface area are definitely able to shed that amount of heat. The problem is if you have the motor laced in a large wheel, you won't have 90% eff, but rather around 80% which would mean 600 of that 3000W are turned into heat what now leads to overheating.

neptronix,
when justin has added the motor to the sim, i will show you a setup where it does 3000W continuous (without cooling mods) :p
volt up and gear down is the secret^^
 
madin88 said:
neptronix,
when justin has added the motor to the sim, i will show you a setup where it does 3000W continuous (without cooling mods) :p
volt up and gear down is the secret^^
Click to expand...

madin88,
Does Justin have plans to add this motor to the simulator? That would be awesome. I was hoping that arriving at a continuous wattage with the leaf motor such as 3000w or even higher by using substantially higher voltage and less amps would result in less thermal issue. I take it that is what you are saying here. But what do you mean by "gear down"? Sounds very interesting... :)
 
Gearing down for a direct drive hubmotor means just as you said: move from a 4T to a slower 5T, and then raise the volts, ending up with the same top speed. What I'm most interested in is finding out the amps where this amount of copper mass reaches saturation. No need to make waste extra heat, if we can simply calculate the max amps that's efficient, and then choose Kv and volts after that
 
spinningmagnets said:
Gearing down for a direct drive hubmotor means just as you said: move from a 4T to a slower 5T, and then raise the volts, ending up with the same top speed. What I'm most interested in is finding out the amps where this amount of copper mass reaches saturation. No need to make waste extra heat, if we can simply calculate the max amps that's efficient, and then choose Kv and volts after that
Click to expand...

I did go with the 5T option. Do you think decreasing wheel size from 26" would be a good move for this winding if i'm going for average speed of 40MPH? I'm still trying to get my mind firmly wrapped around the math/science of efficiency/speed/power.
 
The top speed is a result of the motor Kv, the system voltage, and the diameter of the wheel. When presented with two choices, it is more desirable to take the option that results in a faster magnet speed. Going to a smaller diameter tire and raising the voltage is better than lowering the Kv, and then raising the voltage. However, either one is an improvement.
 
Allex said:
No, no, gearing down means lower tire diameter for better torque not play with windings.
Click to expand...
exactly!
 
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