Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Cowardlyduck]

Any ideas about what sensors are installed in the Leaf from the factory?

No sorry. Mine never failed. I've had them fail a few times in past Crystalyte motors. They are usually pretty standard though and the commonly available one's from Ebay or Grin should work. Just make sure they are 5V and output on the same legs.

Cheers

 

[E-HP]

No sorry. Mine never failed. I've had them fail a few times in past Crystalyte motors. They are usually pretty standard though and the commonly available one's from Ebay or Grin should work. Just make sure they are 5V and output on the same legs.

Cheers

Thanks. I do some searching and see what I find.

 

[silentbike]

No sorry. Mine never failed. I've had them fail a few times in past Crystalyte motors. They are usually pretty standard though and the commonly available one's from Ebay or Grin should work. Just make sure they are 5V and output on the same legs.

Cheers

Thanks. I do some searching and see what I find.

I use honeywell ss41 replacement for leaf 4t they were $2 each and work fine

 

[E-HP]

No sorry. Mine never failed. I've had them fail a few times in past Crystalyte motors. They are usually pretty standard though and the commonly available one's from Ebay or Grin should work. Just make sure they are 5V and output on the same legs.

Cheers

Thanks. I do some searching and see what I find.

I use honeywell ss41 replacement for leaf 4t they were $2 each and work fine

Thanks. I ordered 6 last night, so hope to get the motor back up and running before next weekend. Do you know why yours failed?
I'm swapping out the Leaf with my old motor today, to make sure the controller is OK.

 

[calab]

When did leaf install a pcb board for their hall sensors?

 

[silentbike]

No sorry. Mine never failed. I've had them fail a few times in past Crystalyte motors. They are usually pretty standard though and the commonly available one's from Ebay or Grin should work. Just make sure they are 5V and output on the same legs.

Cheers

Thanks. I do some searching and see what I find.

I use honeywell ss41 replacement for leaf 4t they were $2 each and work fine

Thanks. I ordered 6 last night, so hope to get the motor back up and running before next weekend. Do you know why yours failed?
I'm swapping out the Leaf with my old motor today, to make sure the controller is OK.

Not sure. It was quite random @ low temp and at low rpms.
Probably wire short near disc brake; i made sure that all insulation is now fixed
Eventually i might go HFI sensorless but im yet to implement this. Cheers

 

[E-HP]

Thanks. I ordered 6 last night, so hope to get the motor back up and running before next weekend. Do you know why yours failed?
I'm swapping out the Leaf with my old motor today, to make sure the controller is OK.

Doh!!! When I went to swap out the motors, I had to redo the phase wire connectors, since when I installed the Leaf, I took a shortcut and cut the old phase wires and soldered the Leaf phase wires to them in order to reuse the Anderson connectors (in the end, I planned to swap over to XT150 connectors). I got up this morning and soldered on the XT150 connectors on to the old motor. Then went to replace the Andersons on the controller. So when I went to remove the spliced on connectors, the blue phase wire slipped right out of the Anderson on the motor side. Argh, back to my original theory, loose phase wire connection.

I changed out all of the connectors on the Leaf and controller, and fired up the motor. It ran smooth as silk and quieter. I went out for a short ride up the same hill. The motor was silent and smooth, and the temps rose a lot slower, and I was 15C - 20C lower at the top of the hill and no signs of any problems.

Now, the only issue is, I wasn't paying attention when putting the plastic housing on for the XT150s, and I messed up half of them, so need to redo them. Doh!! That's a project for another day now that the Leaf if running and the weather is perfect. And, I'll have some spare hall sensors in case I ever do fry them.

EDIT: Took a 25 mile ride and didn't experience any issues. Just some moderate hills, so I didn't get the motor too hot, around 75C max.

EDIT 01-30-22: Another slightly longer ride today ~30 miles without any incidents. Took several trails with moderate hills. I'll try some torture testing up to the top of the hill this week and get the motor up to around 90C and everything goes well, I'll consider the issue resolved.

 

[ZeroEm]

most of ES has spare parts. I always buy extras. Glad it was just a lose wire, beats cracking a motor open.

 

[calab]

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

I have one multimeter and have cooked about 6 motors so what does that make me

My latest was a RH212...shoulda bought a Leaf motor!

Grin is replacing this under warranty so I will use one again, but wish I did get the cheaper Leaf to begin with for this build.

Cheers

 

[calab]

Either way cook 2 motors and have one meter, it all balances out in the end.

Is it a fluke mm?

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

I have one multimeter and have cooked about 6 motors so what does that make me

My latest was a RH212...shoulda bought a Leaf motor!

Grin is replacing this under warranty so I will use one again, but wish I did get the cheaper Leaf to begin with for this build.

Cheers

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

I have one multimeter and have cooked about 6 motors so what does that make me

My latest was a RH212...shoulda bought a Leaf motor!

Grin is replacing this under warranty so I will use one again, but wish I did get the cheaper Leaf to begin with for this build.

Cheers

The leaf is actually more expensive after shipping is applied. (Shipping from China is not cheap)

P.S. Have you ever cooked a motor with a wide stator? 45mm or 50mm stator?

 

[calab]

I have and it wasnt anything spectacular at all, just stupidity and going slow with no chain to help pedal and being tired. The leaf is a good entry level motor and the shipping has just gone up in price in the last 1-2 yrs.

The leaf is actually more expensive after shipping is applied. (Shipping from China is not cheap)

P.S. Have you ever cooked a motor with a wide stator? 45mm or 50mm stator?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Most Fluke meters are not actually any better. They just have proven history and somewhat guaranteed accuracy. For a hobbyist the increased cost of a Fluke is simply not worth it.

Biggest motor I have cooked was a 40mm wide HS4060 pushing 6KW up a steep hill from a stall. With proper cooling, a good controller and some mechanical sypothy I pushed over 8Kw through my 35mm wide leaf without ever cooking it. Maybe I learned a thing or two.

BTW, the above motor isn't actually 'cooked'....it literally broke in half. I would say due to manufacturing defect most likely as I've never managed to do that before.

Cheers

 

[calab]

OK I was debating myself whether to edit that and just say any meter over $50 but yeah thats why flukes are so expensive because of written protocols and testing procedures along with other factors. EEVBlog aussie did a video on that I saw a few days ago.

Aside from the broken hub, how many rims has anyone collapsed?

 

[thundercamel]

I'm late, but anyone suspecting hall sensor signal problems should measure voltage with a meter between the black ground and one of the 3 hall signal wires while causing the problem to happen. Take this measurement at the connector to the controller. The reading should sequence between 0 and 5 volts cleanly as the motor turns. A broken wire will cause the voltage to float in the middle somewhere. Check all 3 signal wires of course.

Probe the back of the connector something like this:

 

[Bullfrog]

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

I have one multimeter and have cooked about 6 motors so what does that make me

My latest was a RH212...shoulda bought a Leaf motor!

Grin is replacing this under warranty so I will use one again, but wish I did get the cheaper Leaf to begin with for this build.

Cheers

Wow, I have never seen a motor break like that before. Was there anything that might have contributed to the failure...i.e. high amperage/torque, hitting something, excessive weight? Just wondering if it was purely a manufacturing defect or a defect with additional contributors that should not have caused a failure on their own.

Thanks

As far as melting a motor or collapsing a rim, I have never done either. I have a 10T and a 12T MAC I abuse but my controller rolls the power back if I exceed 150C and all of my wheels are laced with 12 gauge spokes. I do NOT take it easy on my bikes...riding off road at high speeds hitting roots, rocks, and obstacles and I weigh about 220 lbs plus my bike is a hardtail. My MAC clutch did have the little springs get out of place due to hitting things at high speeds but no failures. My BBSHD powered bikes have never had a problem and I am running my controller at 60A.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

One could argue your not a true hobbyist until you have 2 digital multimeters and cooked 1 motor.

I have one multimeter and have cooked about 6 motors so what does that make me

My latest was a RH212...shoulda bought a Leaf motor!

Grin is replacing this under warranty so I will use one again, but wish I did get the cheaper Leaf to begin with for this build.

Cheers

Wow, I have never seen a motor break like that before. Was there anything that might have contributed to the failure...i.e. high amperage/torque, hitting something, excessive weight? Just wondering if it was purely a manufacturing defect or a defect with additional contributors that should not have caused a failure on their own.

Thanks

As far as melting a motor or collapsing a rim, I have never done either. I have a 10T and a 12T MAC I abuse but my controller rolls the power back if I exceed 150C and all of my wheels are laced with 12 gauge spokes. I do NOT take it easy on my bikes...riding off road at high speeds hitting roots, rocks, and obstacles and I weigh about 220 lbs plus my bike is a hardtail. My MAC clutch did have the little springs get out of place due to hitting things at high speeds but no failures. My BBSHD powered bikes have never had a problem and I am running my controller at 60A.

150C!!

That is a very high temp. I would be concerned about permanent damage to the magnets. Doesn't ebikes.ca say not to go over 110C for the GMAC?

P.S. QS advertises using SH grade magnets in their motors but even those are rated to only 150C. According to the info below once a SH grade magnet experience heat 150C or greater it becomes permanently weakened.

https://www.first4magnets.com/tech-centre-i61/information-and-articles-i70/neodymium-magnet-information-i82/how-does-temperature-affect-neodymium-magnets-i91

As a rule Neodymium Magnets lose 0.11% of their magnetism for every 1 degree celsius rise in temperature. This small loss is fully recoverable on cooling, providing that the maximum operating temperature is not exceeded. If it is exceeded, then the small loss will not be recovered on cooling and successive hot-cold cycles will see the magnetic performance deteriorate.

The two letters following the grade name determine the temperature rating and represent the highest operating temperature the magnet can withstand before its magnetic properties are critically affected. These ratings should always be treated as a guide value as other factors such as size and shape also have an impact on the performance of a magnet at high temperatures.

MAGNET TYPE SUFFIX Max. Working Temperature
(based on High working point)
No suffix 80 ºC = 176 ºF *
M 100ºC = 212 ºF
H 120ºC = 248 ºF
SH 150 ºC = 302 ºF
UH 180 ºC = 356 ºF
EH 200 ºC = 392 ºF
AH 230 ºC = 446 ºF

Can neodymium magnets weakened by heat be remagnetised?

If the maximum operating temperature of the grade of neodymium is exceeded the magnets will be weakened, if exceeded enough the magnets will become demagnetised. It is possible to remagnetise neodymium magnets but they will not be as strong as they were originally. The more the operating temperature is exceeded the weaker the magnets will be after remagnetisation.

 

[Bullfrog]

Justin at Grin Tech was the one that told me about running a MAC at 150C without any degradation on his dyno. I later checked and although I can't remember what magnets the MAC uses, 150C was not supposed to degrade them any.

I don't roll the power back at 150C, I actually kill the power completely if I reach 150C.

Other motors may be different so I wouldn't go that high without knowing the magnet type and whether or not the wire insulation/lacquer can handle it.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Hard to say exactly what caused the RH212 to fail like that, but yeah it's pretty bizarre and not something I've ever encountered before either.

There were not any obvious external factors and the point it failed wasn't a particularly hard bump, having hit far larger one's prior without issue. I was only pushing 60A peak, but mostly below 25A and only on 14S ~52V.
The spokes were a bit tight as Grin didn't do the best job lacing it, so I had to true it myself, but it was no tighter than other hub motors I have run for many years without issue. I have torque arms both sides as well so it's not like there were uneven forces.

I can only really think it was a manufacturing or QC issue as the structure of the motor is meant to have a magnitude of strength beyond what is needed so for it to fail like this when not under extreme circumstances tells me there was something not quite right somewhere in the metal casting of this motor.

The crazy part is it was pitch black when this happened and I thought it was just a broken spoke so I rode it home for several kms like that and it worked well enough to get me home still pumping over 1Kw through it. :lol:

Cheers

 

[Bullfrog]

Hard to say exactly what caused the RH212 to fail like that, but yeah it's pretty bizarre and not something I've ever encountered before either.

There were not any obvious external factors and the point it failed wasn't a particularly hard bump, having hit far larger one's prior without issue. I was only pushing 60A peak, but mostly below 25A and only on 14S ~52V.
The spokes were a bit tight as Grin didn't do the best job lacing it, so I had to true it myself, but it was no tighter than other hub motors I have run for many years without issue. I have torque arms both sides as well so it's not like there were uneven forces.

I can only really think it was a manufacturing or QC issue as the structure of the motor is meant to have a magnitude of strength beyond what is needed so for it to fail like this when not under extreme circumstances tells me there was something not quite right somewhere in the metal casting of this motor.

The crazy part is it was pitch black when this happened and I thought it was just a broken spoke so I rode it home for several kms like that and it worked well enough to get me home still pumping over 1Kw through it. :lol:

Cheers

Wow, pretty amazing it got you home.

I tend to agree with you, just a manufacturing defect.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

What's the preferred controller for the leafmotor? Do most people just go straight for something high quality like the Grin Phaserunner?

 

[Chalo]

What's the preferred controller for the leafmotor? Do most people just go straight for something high quality like the Grin Phaserunner?

Leaf supplies KT 48V 35A trapezoidal wave controllers with their 1500W motor kits. That's what I use with mine, and it works great.

I might prefer a silent controller, but I strongly favor a controller that doesn't require a PC to configure.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

What's the preferred controller for the leafmotor? Do most people just go straight for something high quality like the Grin Phaserunner?

Leaf supplies KT 48V 35A trapezoidal wave controllers with their 1500W motor kits. That's what I use with mine, and it works great.

I might prefer a silent controller, but I strongly favor a controller that doesn't require a PC to configure.

Huh, only a 35A? Because I have a random 40A 60V controller that might work; when it's opened, how can I tell if it's trapezoidal?

 

[spinningmagnets]

If there is a feint buzzing under acceleration, its a common trapezoidal controller. Sine wave is a little more sophisticated, and it is near silent under all conditions.

There's nothing wrong with a trap controller. During the cruise phase of any ride, they are also very quiet, it's just that under acceleration they make some buzzing noise. I recommend that every ebiker have a cheap sensorless 6-FET controller. If the main controller suddenly has an issue, swap-in the sensorless controller and then...if the bike works, the issue on the old controller is a Hall sensor in the motor.

Plus, a spare 20A sensorless trap controller allows you to ride your ebike until a nice sine-wave replacement controller can be sourced.