Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[neptronix]

Edit: i'm wrong

Good little medium sized hub motors but he fact that Greif-Motor charges you $125 for shipping and then adds a service charge is blatant thievery if you ask me,

Considering it's a heavy item coming from China, $125 shipping is pretty normal.
I'm surprised that a RH212 comes out cheaper shipped to the USA. It's a lesser motor, but come with a higher quality wheelbuild.

Prices shown for a complete 26"rear wheel:

Shipping a leaf 1.5kw to Utah, USA

Shipping a RH212 to Utah, USA

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Considering it's a heavy item coming from China, $125 shipping is pretty normal.
I'm surprised that a RH212 comes out cheaper shipped to the USA. It's a lesser motor, but come with a higher quality wheelbuild.

Prices shown for a complete 26"rear wheel:

Shipping a leaf 1.5kw to Utah, USA View attachment 360744

Shipping a RH212 to Utah, USA View attachment 360743

$182 for a R212 by itself? When I go to the ebikes.ca website it says $260.

 

[neptronix]

My bad, it was showing me dealer prices despite not being logged in as a dealer.
I'll let Grin know about that!

Ok, leaf is a bit cheaper.

 

[Bullfrog]

Since that article was written Leaf has changed the Kv values. This change in Kv for 4T was even confirmed by Kuromaku:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Charge to a lower percentage than 100%. Problem solved. Actually I think he was concerned that the battery would gain too much charge on the long descent. So even if charged sub maximum (at beginning of the descent) the fear is at some point the battery will reach fully charged before getting...

endless-sphere.com

Thanks

 

[yantra yatra]

250A = the nominal phase amps rating; 80A batt x 3 = 240A phase.
That's what my 18FET cost a decade ago, and that controller had a fraction of the features, so not a bad deal.

I have a 100A unit from them but 50A batt, 125A phase is really pushing the controller, you want 60-80A batt and the above controller is ideal for the 80A batt case.

The mid sized version might work for you at 60A batt.

Not sure that I need a lot of features, so maybe I don’t need VESC? I have absolutely no idea though about controllers, torque sensing compatible and PAS compatible are the main things needed. Definitely wouldn’t be envisioning 60-80a continuous use, so maybe a smaller one would do

 

[neptronix]

Nobody needs all those features for sure.
PAS and torque sensing won't work out of the box and will require some effort.

Usually people prefer throttle control on motors this powerful tho.

It's one of the few very programmable controllers that you can find them built to a very high quality and level of refinement.
ASI level controllers ( maybe better ) without the attitude against tuners and also without the price.. and also.. much better supported.. hard to beat!

I did an evaluation of controllers this year. Good programmable controllers aren't a dime a dozen anymore. The phaserunners by Grin are quite good within their intended power range and newbie friendly but lack the power output to give a motor this big some real exercise. The VESC will allow you to wring every last watt out of this motor. What do you prefer?

Successor to the infineon clone controllers in the 1000-2000w power range?

 

[AdR]

@neptronix -which vesc controller you using.

 

[neptronix]

See the thread for more details; i'm using a Spintend with the ewheel aka ebike adapter

 

[yantra yatra]

Do you need VESC to get field weakening? It would be good to be able to run at 52v but be able to spin faster

 

[neptronix]

Phaserunner and VESC will both do field weakening.

 

[yantra yatra]

Can you point to any info on what’s required to set up PAS or torque sensing with the Spintend? I imagine the Spintend can handle bursts or short periods above its rated current, but it’s not clear from the product info

Adding the big heat sink will prob help with that (I see you did that and aim to run 2.5kw with the 100a Ubox)

Also @neptronix why did you get / recommend the dual controller? I’ll read through that thread in more detail.

I saw @Chalo recommend a simple three mode controller, could you point in the direction of the one you use?

 

[yantra yatra]

Also keen for regen - is that easy enough with the Spintend?

 

[neptronix]

Setting up PAS or torque sensing is a DIY affair involving scripts and maybe additional hardware; some threads exist on this forum though. Expect it to be difficult but possible with effort.

The Spintend has some headroom on it's output specs like most controllers.
For the 100a you will absolutely want a heat sink if you're pushing it.

I don't recommend the dual controller, sorry if i gave you a bunk link.

All VESCs do regen and do an excellent job of it, and that's not rocket science. On the spintend with the ewheel adapter, the process isn't clear cut but i can direct you on how to do it.

 

[yantra yatra]

Thanks for the detailed info. The difficulty of setting up PAS and torque sensing probably rules out the VESC for me. Having a look at ‘simple three mode controllers’ @Chalo mentioned. Seems the advantage is redundancy if a hall sensor gives out? Prob will just go with a controller from leaf as it’s not clear what a better option is

 

[Chalo]

Having a look at ‘simple three mode controllers’ @Chalo mentioned. Seems the advantage is redundancy if a hall sensor gives out?

Advantages:

Silent running if your Halls are working correctly.

But without the necessity of your Halls working correctly. Or at all.

Fast, effective self learning setup.

Very cheap for the power rating.

No need for a display, so both lower cost and fewer points of failure.

Prob will just go with a controller from leaf as it’s not clear what a better option is

When I got my Leaf, it came with a 35A KT controller and LCD3 display. There's nothing at all wrong with that, but I appreciate quiet/cheap/simple more than I appreciate the configurability and versatile ecosystem of the KT controller. There's something to be said for both.

The bike I ride the most lately has a sensorless dumb full-blast 30A controller for the rear hub motor (which doesn't have any Hall sensors) and a 22A KT controller with LCD4 display for the front hub motor. That way, I can run on the rear motor alone for added range and comfortable modest speed, while setting the front motor to level zero while the display tracks mileage, voltage etc. Or I can set the front motor to level 1,2,3 for more assertive acceleration and faster climbing that then bows out to run on just the rear motor at cruising speed. Or I can set the front to level 4 or 5 to get both motors pulling all the time.

 

[neptronix]

From what i hear the leafbike controllers aren't that great, not programmable, average quality, and are also power and voltage limited. I don't think they do torque sensing. Regen power will not be settable. PAS probably sucks, like it does on most cheap controllers.

40A isn't enough to drive a 4T winding. This controller would be better suited to a slower 5T or 6T winding.

 

[yantra yatra]

Good advice, thank you! Turns out leaf ships an 18 get 3 mode controller, rated for 40a. But as nep points out, prob underpowered if that is a max amps rating. The search continues…

 

[neptronix]

Good advice, thank you! Turns out leaf ships an 18 get 3 mode controller, rated for 40a. But as nep points out, prob underpowered if that is a max amps rating. The search continues…

That's pretty sad. A good 18FET controller should output at least 60A. Sounds like they used the FETs they scraped off the factory floor...

Also not programmable.. and the right phase to battery amp ratio is key to maximizing output but also not flipping the bike backwards from a giga power wheelie.

You may have a difficult time finding a programmable controller that outputs high power and also does PAS. Most people don't want PAS on a high power motor. Many people are too afraid to sell an ebike controller capable of illegal speeds these days, so for the most part you are looking at scooter/small motorcycle controllers which were all designed around throttle.

Only the VESC would give you any hope of running PAS or torque sensing at this power level, because it's EXTREMELY programmable. You'll probably find you don't like high power + PAS though.

 

[The Toecutter]

Only the VESC would give you any hope of running PAS or torque sensing at this power level, because it's EXTREMELY programmable. You'll probably find you don't like high power + PAS though.

I can't speak for yantra yatra, but I must say it can be quite a handful. A multiplier of 10x coupled with hard pedaling has led to many "OH SHIT!" situations where I've slid sideways on my trike at 30+ mph from loss of traction. I'm hoping AWD fixes that.

 

[neptronix]

Sounds about right yeah!

 

[maiz]

I can't speak for yantra yatra, but I must say it can be quite a handful. A multiplier of 10x coupled with hard pedaling has led to many "OH SHIT!" situations where I've slid sideways on my trike at 30+ mph from loss of traction. I'm hoping AWD fixes that.

There must be a way of limiting ts and/or pas power and relegating full power to throttle?

 

[yantra yatra]

I get the point above, I would only want full power in limited situations. It’s nice to have the PAS / TS when pedalling around normally, and the high power for when you need it. I guess it’s a matter of testing out.

 

[The Toecutter]

There must be a way of limiting ts and/or pas power and relegating full power to throttle?

There are, but then I have to limit the power that my PAS setup can generate, and the PAS is how I retain technical legality while operating what is the equivalent of a hotrodded microcar without a license, plates, registration, tags, or insurance. Using a 1500W 3T Leafbike motor in the rear wheel with an ASI BAC4000 controller.

Normally the throttle is limited to 750W and 20 mph. The PAS is restricted to 10 kW and no speed limit, although it topped out at 50 mph fresh off the charger with a 46.8V pack with the body shell on. With the body removed and a 72V pack, I never got the courage to top it out. If I smoked some meth before riding, I might get that courage.

I have played with it a few times running the throttle at 10 kW and no speed limiter, and it is every bit as much the handful. I drag raced a V6 Dodge Charger at a stoplight and stayed ahead of it until about 30-35 mph, leaping to that speed in about 2 seconds. The low voltage cut my acceleration curve short.

With AWD and running field weakening in the Leafbike motor, this thing is going to be insanity. I have a 72V pack of Molicel P42A ready to party. When I will get this going with AWD, I really don't know. I need to make adaptors for the front hub motors. Targeting 0-60 mph in around 4 seconds. The trike really isn't built for this.

 

[yantra yatra]

That's pretty sad. A good 18FET controller should output at least 60A. Sounds like they used the FETs they scraped off the factory floor...

Also not programmable.. and the right phase to battery amp ratio is key to maximizing output but also not flipping the bike backwards from a giga power wheelie.

You may have a difficult time finding a programmable controller that outputs high power and also does PAS. Most people don't want PAS on a high power motor. Many people are too afraid to sell an ebike controller capable of illegal speeds these days, so for the most part you are looking at scooter/small motorcycle controllers which were all designed around throttle.

Only the VESC would give you any hope of running PAS or torque sensing at this power level, because it's EXTREMELY programmable. You'll probably find you don't like high power + PAS though.

So it looks like from the above the VESC is prob the best option, regen capability, and PAS possible - @neptronix how difficult is it to setup the regen on it? And do you have any idea how difficult PAS might be? Usually I’ll be at lower power levels. So PAS should be fine. (I like pedalling).

Single Ubox Aluminum controller 85V 250A based on VESC

Warning! Don't try more than 85v power ! Electircal Spec: Firmware : shipped with custom firmware . 2 groups of 12v power port: 12v fan port: 3pin connector 12 power port : 4pin connector 12V port total current < 4A Voltage: Max voltage 85V Current: 250A max (The duration depends on the...

spintend.com

The guy at Leaf, Peter, said running it at 60-80a is not good for the phase wire, and pointed me back to the 40a controllers. They have regen. They also have a 3000w-5000w programmable controller for $299 that apparently has regen capability, but it sounds like it’s not good for the controller? They have an 18FET 40a rated controller but can’t find out what FETs are in it. KT apparently also have a regen capable 60a controller - that is probably my other option beside the the Spintend VESC. Would a controller rated for 60a be able to take 80a for shorter periods?

I found a bunch of battery options.

Top of the list is 52v 25ah 80amp BMS Polly case down tube, with Samsung 50s cells but it’s $1200 from Cap Rouge in Australia ($100 off on sale so $1100). Amorge do $660 shipped for same capacity 50S cells, with 120a continuous BMS with Bluetooth. Then electrified do Samsung 5000mah cells with 40a continuous BMS and elemex do LG M48A cells in a triangle with 60a BMS. Those may not handle the short periods of higher power, and higher charging currents, so may give them a miss.

Does anyone know if you can get the Leqf shipped with ferrofluid inside? I think I recall you can.

Thanks for advice and wish me luck

 

[yantra yatra]

Just found this. Infineon 18FET. Would this be capable of 80a? And be capable of regen? Would people recommend this or the Spintend VESC for the Leaf? With PAS and regen desired

Mac Motor Controller 18 Fet Irfb4110 Infineon Controller (motor With Hall Sensors) - Buy Mac Motor Controller,18 Fet Controller,18 Fet Controller Product on Alibaba.com

Mac Motor Controller 18 Fet Irfb4110 Infineon Controller (motor With Hall Sensors) - Buy Mac Motor Controller,18 Fet Controller,18 Fet Controller Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

KT controller here, what would happen if you try to run 80a through it? Reading through Nep’s story on Spintend, does seem to be significant work in setting it up

KT 18 MOSFETS Controller (10A230)--Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co.,Ltd--Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co.,Ltd

Suzhou Kunteng Electronics Co.,Ltd

www.szktdz.com