Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[The Toecutter]

Doesn't look like it to me either, but not everybody here builds evidently. It's a big tent.

My first build wasn't operational as an EV for many years after I first joined. Even then, I found the information here to be valuable and spent a lot of time absorbing it.

 

[yantra yatra]

After looking at a lot of options, hubs, geared (GDR19 from MXUS - top speed too slow) and direct drive, and mids (own a bunch), I’m coming down on the Leafbike as a good choice. The Suringmax 1500w at half the price shipped is tempting, but the Leafbike seems to be a great option. Suringmax is 7.5kg, and 82% efficiency is stated on the product info. Maybe good for a backup bike. Looking forward to less drive train and brake issues with the direct drive.

The Freegen from Grin sounds like it would be great if it can deliver regen with a geared hub, but uncertain when it will launch and will probably be quite a bit more expensive. The DM01 from TO7 could be a good motor if the reliability and customer service was sorted out. I have two (three now with a replacement). Would not get again.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

but not everybody here builds evidently. It's a big tent.

Indeed. Here is what Neptronix himself said back in 2022:

Biggest changes in DIY ebikes over the past 5 years?

What have been the biggest changes to ebikes in the past 5 years? Back in 2017 the Leaf 1500W was all the rage, there was a bunch of drama about the Luna Cycles guy, and battery building was a pain in the ass (its not still a pain in the ass, is it??). I built a bike 5 years ago then stopped...

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Honestly, the last 5 years have been the least exciting for me.

Haven't really seen a new battery or motor technology that makes me want to jump up and build a bike with part X, outside the CYC X1 pro mid drive.

Apparently after doing more research he has since decided against the CYC motor due to the wide Q factor.

Which leads us to the only motor he has built with (besides Bikee Bike lightest mid drive which apparently is a bust in most people's opinion and the GRIN 27mm) the RH212:

Mini Hiryuu - Mid power ebike

Well, i've done it all on two wheels and have been off an ebike for 5 years lately because constant goathead flats defeated my will to ride. I moved to bikes with motorcycle tire compatible wheel sizes ( semi-recumbents ), but found all 3 bikes too difficult to electrify without serious...

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Anyway I haven't seen mention of him adding statorade yet and IIRC he did not use statorade on his previous Leaf 1500w.

He does mention in the post below, however, what he heard about statorade and Leaf 1500w:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

ATF can degrade wiring.. Statorade has been used in the leaf with frankly shocking results.. heard of a guy pushing 20kw into it from a stall.. that's what it took to burn it out with ferrofluid in it.. :lol:

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Statorade has been used in the leaf with frankly shocking results.. heard of a guy pushing 20kw into it from a stall.. that's what it took to burn it out with ferrofluid in it.. :lol:

 

[gromike]

Oh, great, a flame war.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

As mentioned above multiple times, the specs and numbers mean nothing compared to real world usage. Nep and I both have that with these motors and are telling you they are comparable. Take it or leave it. No point trying to convince us our first hand experience isn't real!

Your real world experience is a jumbled up mix of variables that are all over the place:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

..so anyway can we talk about the leafbike on the leafbike thread instead? :) How about those Leaf 1500w motors :). IMO what you are seeing is all the relatively inexperienced people think they can find a better deal or a motor that can handle more power...and you CAN. BUT you can't find a...

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Leaf with 24" rim at 8K then you got the 212 with 20" rim at 3.5K. No doubt the bikes are completely different as well.

I can't use this personal experience of yours to help me figure anything related to statorade usage in both motors.

And as far as Nep goes he hasn't used statorade in either motor yet.

So yeah until someone does a good controlled test nobody knows if the 212 is a better climber when both motors have statorade.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I agree there are variables....never claimed to have performed direct side-by-side comparison, but noting the differences in my usage and how I'm comparing these motors, I am saying they are comparable to each other with all things factored in....and yes I use statorade in all my hub motors.

So yeah until someone does a good controlled test nobody knows if the 212 is a better climber when both motors have statorade.

It is presumptuous to be expecting someone to offer you the answer you are after. What we've offered is as close as you will likely get without doing it yourself.
Maybe you could do that test and let us know the results.
Just make sure you do the test with the same:

• Ambient air temps
• Same amount of statorade or other cooling mods
• Modified motors to make phase wires the same length/thickness
• Identical controllers
• Same bike, rider and overall weight
• Same route/hill
• Same logging methods
• Same battery SOC and voltage
• Same throttle usage/limits

If you can manage all that, then yeah....you'll get the answer you're asking for.

It seems the closest answer you will get is the Grin motor simulator, but as noted it's not all simulated.
Alternatively you could try and understand why we are telling you these motors are about the same and simply accept it.

This is an open forum where people volunteer their time/thoughts/opinions and advice. That's what has happened here.....take it or leave it.

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

Sigh. Here.

In a typical climbing condition, the RH212 is a tiny bit more efficient than a leaf.



If we double the grade, the leaf does worse.



The leaf 1.5kw has 2lbs more of mass, but the RH212 is finned and is taller ( maybe more magnet ring to air contact? ). It's a tough call on which one is better at cooling during hill climbs. but the difference in thermal performance between the two should be pretty small. The difference in wattage while climbing is also small.

Here's the effect of statorade on the RH212. it's pretty dramatic. It's reasonable to expect a similar effect on the leaf.



You could get exact figures by shipping ebikes.ca a hub motor.

Which of the two motors is ideal is up to your application. One motor is good at hills, the other is good at flats.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

RH212 is finned and is taller ( maybe more magnet ring to air contact? )

Yes, the RH212 having a 212mm tall stator rather than a 205mm tall stator means that it has a 3.4% greater radius. This means that the statorade area should be 3.4% longer than a 205mm stator motor with 27mm magnets.

That 3.4% gain is very small compared to the 30% gain the leaf 1500w (35mm/205mm) gets over the same 27mm wide and 205mm tall stator.

Therefore the Leaf enjoys a much better statorade induced heat transfer than the RH212 assuming both are filled the same relative level (which is determined by the point where there is a measurable increase in current when the motor is run unloaded).

 

[neptronix]

Maybe. Fins can matter. The grade can swing the efficiency. Wheel size matters a lot here for efficiency purposes, which affects heat produced. What's the application?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Fins can matter.

Fins on the side panel of RH212 would be more useful when statorade is not being used. This because more of the heat goes to side panel through the air gap between the stator and the side panel rather through the magnets and the back iron:

 

[scianiac]

I recall somewhere early in this thread somebody pointed out you could use the Crystalyte H35xx with the kV adjusted to get pretty close to the leaf but with thermal models including ones with statorade. If you really want to know how much more effective at cooling a wider stator is with statorade.

 

[99t4]

Maybe you could do that test and let us know the results.
Just make sure you do the test with the same:

• Ambient air temps
• Same amount of statorade or other cooling mods
• Modified motors to make phase wires the same length/thickness
• Identical controllers
• Same bike, rider and overall weight
• Same route/hill
• Same logging methods
• Same battery SOC and voltage
• Same throttle usage/limits

You forgot to include:

• Same wind speed and direction.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I recall somewhere early in this thread somebody pointed out you could use the Crystalyte H35xx with the kV adjusted to get pretty close to the leaf but with thermal models including ones with statorade. If you really want to know how much more effective at cooling a wider stator is with statorade.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Below is the example used by Neptronix in post #3357 comparing RH212 to Leaf 5T (at 90.7% throttle) up at 10% grade with 140Kg total load:

If we double the grade, the leaf does worse.



The leaf 1.5kw has 2lbs more of mass, but the RH212 is finned and is taller ( maybe more magnet ring to air contact? ). It's a tough call on which one is better at cooling during hill climbs. but the difference in thermal performance between the two should be pretty small. The difference in wattage while climbing is also small.

Now if I substitute in H3540 at 91% throttle (in place of Leaf 5T at 90.7% throttle) I get the following:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

H3540 at 91% throttle is actually a very close match to Leaf 5T at 90.7% throttle in the lower speed range (see here --->Motor Simulator - Tools).

Now going back to RH212 vs. H3540 when I add statorade to both motors the H3540 does get lower temps (177 degrees) than the RH212 does (199 degrees celcius). This even though the H3540 is less efficient (69.0 % vs. 71.2%) at the same speed at the same load:

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...

ebikes.ca

So if the H3540 modeling is accurate for the Leaf 5T at low speed then Leaf would be a better climber than the 212 when both motors are using Statorade.

 

[yantra yatra]

Not a huge difference in it practically maybe?

Will be helpful to have more controller suggestions if there are people using the Leaf out there. I thought of just asking the company if they can substitute a higher amp controller with the kit. Maybe 35-45amp continuous rating and up to 60-80amp maximum. If anyone has links or what they use would be great. Got a little feedback previously

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Not a huge difference in it practically maybe?

I wouldn't dismiss a 22 degrees celcius difference as not practical when you factor in the effect heat has on the motor's winding insulation which loses half it's life for every 10 degrees Celsius increase:

https://www.energy.gov/eere/amo/articles/extend-operating-life-your-motor

(see sixth paragraph in the page below)




Then there is the effect of heat on the resistance of the windings which the motor simulator doesn't measure in the case of RH212 vs. H3540 with or without statorade. (Hotter windings= higher resistance of windings = lower efficiency which in turn increases heat further)

Then there is the effect of heat on the magnets themselves. For example, the Leaf's magnets are rated N38H (Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor). The H rating means once temps go beyond 120C the magnet irreversibly loses magnetism. Also the closer a magnet is to its rated temperature the more it's temporarily loses magnet strength:

Temperature and Neodymium Magnets | K&J Magnetics Blog

Find out how temperature can impact the strength and performance of neodymium magnets and learn about high temp grades.

www.kjmagnetics.com

Weakening a magnet, of course, hurts motor output.

 

[neptronix]

Will be helpful to have more controller suggestions if there are people using the Leaf out there. I thought of just asking the company if they can substitute a higher amp controller with the kit. Maybe 35-45amp continuous rating and up to 60-80amp maximum. If anyone has links or what they use would be great. Got a little feedback previously

I used an 18FET infineon clone back in the day. But you can't get those anymore.

Honestly i'd run a VESC today. I particularly like spintend VESCs because they have ebike adapters that make the wiring them up to non-scooters a lot nicer..

This model should be able to comfortably handle that 60-80A use case:
Single Ubox Aluminum controller 85V 250A based on VESC

I run a smaller one of these with the RH212.

Beware that it will require some tuning, but they're very common controllers, so getting help w/tuning is no big deal.

 

[gone]

I'm looking for a slightly faster wound motor than my 3k turbo 3t which is 11.9kv and I was considering the 13kv 4t leaf, but then I read in this thread that now it's only 12kv. I wondered if the 3t variant had also been reduced in kv from 17.5 so I messaged leaf asking what the kv rating is for the 3t and 4t 1500w motor. The response I got was
16.7
14.2
So I'm a bit confused. Has anyone ordered one of these motors recently and able to confirm either of these numbers?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I'm looking for a slightly faster wound motor than my 3k turbo 3t which is 11.9kv and I was considering the 13kv 4t leaf, but then I read in this thread that now it's only 12kv. I wondered if the 3t variant had also been reduced in kv from 17.5 so I messaged leaf asking what the kv rating is for the 3t and 4t 1500w motor. The response I got was
16.7
14.2
So I'm a bit confused. Has anyone ordered one of these motors recently and able to confirm either of these numbers?

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Are there other rear cogs you are using? I am currently running a 7 speed freewheel on my Leaf motor but I usually leave it on the 22T cog so I can pedal if the motor needs a little help on a steep incline.

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Leaf uses winding machines but also hand-winds some motors, which is why they offer more than just the standard 3T, 4T, and 5T speeds. The hand-wound motors have higher speeds. For example, according to Leaf, a hand-wound 4T motor is 70 rpm faster than a machine-wound one. The hand-wound motors have more copper fill, I think, making them faster and more efficient.

If the 70 rpm higher speed was measured at 36v that would explain the difference in Kv.

P.S. Too bad ebikes.ca never dyno tested a hand wound Leaf 1500w.

 

[yantra yatra]

I used an 18FET infineon clone back in the day. But you can't get those anymore.

Honestly i'd run a VESC today. I particularly like spintend VESCs because they have ebike adapters that make the wiring them up to non-scooters a lot nicer..

This model should be able to comfortably handle that 60-80A use case:
Single Ubox Aluminum controller 85V 250A based on VESC

I run a smaller one of these with the RH212.

Beware that it will require some tuning, but they're very common controllers, so getting help w/tuning is no big deal.

Thanks, that’s a bit more expensive than I was expecting at $211USD and maybe a bit overspecced at 250A? Maybe the 100A version at $100 would work. I assume they will work at 48v or 52v, rated at 100v max.

Any other suggestions on what people use? Or what would work for controllers?

 

[neptronix]

250A = the nominal phase amps rating; 80A batt x 3 = 240A phase.
That's what my 18FET cost a decade ago, and that controller had a fraction of the features, so not a bad deal.

I have a 100A unit from them but 50A batt, 125A phase is really pushing the controller, you want 60-80A batt and the above controller is ideal for the 80A batt case.

The mid sized version might work for you at 60A batt.

 

[Bullfrog]

I'm looking for a slightly faster wound motor than my 3k turbo 3t which is 11.9kv and I was considering the 13kv 4t leaf, but then I read in this thread that now it's only 12kv. I wondered if the 3t variant had also been reduced in kv from 17.5 so I messaged leaf asking what the kv rating is for the 3t and 4t 1500w motor. The response I got was
16.7
14.2
So I'm a bit confused. Has anyone ordered one of these motors recently and able to confirm either of these numbers?

I wouldn't recommend anything faster than the 4T Leaf. Use the Grin Tech Motor Simulator to check your temperatures and use a Crystalyte H35xx motor in place of the Leaf to do it. Just adjust the Kv until you have the same top speeds for the H35 and the Leaf.

Of course there are variables like what voltage to you plan to run your motor on...that will affect the temperature since a faster winding will pull more amperage as the speed increases. It is the amperage that does the heating and determines how much torque you have where the voltage determines how fast the motor "wants" to turn. I like running my Leaf 4T on 72v nominal but I have it in a 24" wheel and I run Statorade...both in an attempt to keep the temperatures down.

More info here and the quote below is from this article as well: Leafbike 1500W hubmotor, the mid-sized hot rod.

"Since the faster Kv motors (lower turn-count) use fatter wire, they have less resistance, even if you only use half of their higher speed potential. Listed below are the turn-counts available from Leafbike. I recommend the 4-Turn, even if you don’t actually travel at that high of a top-speed. The top road-speeds listed below are for a 26-inch wheel and a 2-inch tire.

4T / 13.1 Kv = 631rpm @ 48V = 39mph
5T /10.1 Kv = 485rpm @ 48V = 30mph
6T / 7.0 Kv = 336rpm @ 48V = 21mph"

The author, Ron/spinningmagnets, usually has his facts correct so I'd tend to use the Kv values he published.

FWIW, 52v (14s) is by far the most common battery voltage available and it would be my second choice after 72v but I am a little different than the mainstream crowd so a 14s/52v battery is best for most people. EM3ev.com is where I buy all of my batteries and they now offer packs with 21700 cells .

Remember the Kv rating for electric motors is with NO load...most motors can achieve about 90% of the Kv calculated speed in real world operation on flat ground if you are lucky. The Grin Tech Motor Simulator takes aerodynamic drag, motor efficiency, etc. into account when it gives you a speed.

 

[Bullfrog]

250A = the nominal phase amps rating; 80A batt x 3 = 240A phase.
That's what my 18FET cost a decade ago, and that controller had a fraction of the features, so not a bad deal.

I have a 100A unit from them but 50A batt, 125A phase is really pushing the controller, you want 60-80A batt and the above controller is ideal for the 80A batt case.

The mid sized version might work for you at 60A batt.

Nep...I believe you can still order/buy the Infineon Clone Controllers directly from MAC. MAC does have a minimum order that might throw a monkey wrench in anyone's plans to buy just one.

 

[st35326]

Good little medium sized hub motors but he fact that Greif-Motor charges you $125 for shipping and then adds a service charge is blatant thievery if you ask me,

 

[neptronix]

Nep...I believe you can still order/buy the Infineon Clone Controllers directly from MAC. MAC does have a minimum order that might throw a monkey wrench in anyone's plans to buy just one.

I attempted to do that to no avail.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

More info here and the quote below is from this article as well: Leafbike 1500W hubmotor, the mid-sized hot rod.

"Since the faster Kv motors (lower turn-count) use fatter wire, they have less resistance, even if you only use half of their higher speed potential. Listed below are the turn-counts available from Leafbike. I recommend the 4-Turn, even if you don’t actually travel at that high of a top-speed. The top road-speeds listed below are for a 26-inch wheel and a 2-inch tire.

4T / 13.1 Kv = 631rpm @ 48V = 39mph
5T /10.1 Kv = 485rpm @ 48V = 30mph
6T / 7.0 Kv = 336rpm @ 48V = 21mph"

The author, Ron/spinningmagnets, usually has his facts correct so I'd tend to use the Kv values he published.

Since that article was written Leaf has changed the Kv values. This change in Kv for 4T was even confirmed by Kuromaku:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Charge to a lower percentage than 100%. Problem solved. Actually I think he was concerned that the battery would gain too much charge on the long descent. So even if charged sub maximum (at beginning of the descent) the fear is at some point the battery will reach fully charged before getting...

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