Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[neptronix]

Hey, i attempted to buy from Cutler MAC this year to no avail, they were out of stock and couldn't give me any answers as to when it would resume, or solid answers if they planned to carry the controller long term. So basically i wrote them off. Let me know if you get a different result.

An 18FET infineon clone is what i used when i started this thread 10 years ago, and it pushed 6kw ( 80A batt max ), no problem.

You could give it a shot but i think a VESC is your best bet today. Pretty much guarantee you'll be disappointed with the leafbike controller. You'll want one of their bigger models if you plan to push 80A continuous for long periods of time and use strong regen.

I have a ubox 100A rated unit and i think that rating is based on the phase currents, not battery current. It's good for 40-45A continuous battery current on a Grin All Axle or RH212

 

[A-DamW]

And do you have any idea how difficult PAS might be? Usually I’ll be at lower power levels. So PAS should be fine. (I like pedalling).

Example of PAS on a vesc controller:
finally pas on vesc with 3 wire sensor!!

 

[yantra yatra]

Thank you! Both

What do you think of this battery?
52V 25Ah / 1300Wh Downtube Samsung eBike Battery CPHV52-25
Maybe won’t have great range at ~2kw, so will have to run a spare

 

[Bullfrog]

Thank you! Both

What do you think of this battery?
52V 25Ah / 1300Wh Downtube Samsung eBike Battery CPHV52-25
Maybe won’t have great range at ~2kw, so will have to run a spare

I buy all of my batteries from EM3ev.com. They have proven to be very reliable and safe and their customer support is top notch.

 

[Bullfrog]

Hey, i attempted to buy from Cutler MAC this year to no avail, they were out of stock and couldn't give me any answers as to when it would resume, or solid answers if they planned to carry the controller long term. So basically i wrote them off. Let me know if you get a different result.

An 18FET infineon clone is what i used when i started this thread 10 years ago, and it pushed 6kw ( 80A batt max ), no problem.

You could give it a shot but i think a VESC is your best bet today. Pretty much guarantee you'll be disappointed with the leafbike controller. You'll want one of their bigger models if you plan to push 80A continuous for long periods of time and use strong regen.

I have a ubox 100A rated unit and i think that rating is based on the phase currents, not battery current. It's good for 40-45A continuous battery current on a Grin All Axle or RH212

Nep...did you have to change the connector or the actual plug on your 18 FET Infineon clone from MAC so it would connect correctly to your Leaf motor?

The 18 FET Infineon clone I have came with a different connector that my Leaf motor came with.

What about the VESC, do the connectors that come on it match the Leaf motor?

Thanks for all your help .

 

[neptronix]

I do custom wiring for motor to controller connections. Everything is hobbyking 4mm bullets and the old rectangular hall sensor connector of the 2010's.

I'm considering switching hall connectors to 2mm JST PH because this is a standard for a lot of VESC makes.

Spintend makes an adapter for that:
ebike escooter hubmotor hall sensor transfer cable for using in VESC

 

[Bullfrog]

I do custom wiring for motor to controller connections. Everything is hobbyking 4mm bullets and the old rectangular hall sensor connector of the 2010's.

I'm considering switching hall connectors to 2mm JST PH because this is a standard for a lot of VESC makes.

Spintend makes an adapter for that:
ebike escooter hubmotor hall sensor transfer cable for using in VESC

Thanks for the link...I ordered two of them .

 

[yantra yatra]

Apparently Nucular have a new controller coming out soon in the 5000w-10,000w range. could be a good option for the leaf hub

 

[Bullfrog]

Decent video on the VESC controllers:

 

[AdR]

just got a spintend 85v/240a. like it so far. Just not able to get the regen braking to work with the adapter board. If anyone know how to get it working be much appreciated. Thx

 

[AdR]

Update: figured out the regen braking. set ADC in app to: current no reverse ADC 2 braking.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Thank you! Both

What do you think of this battery?
52V 25Ah / 1300Wh Downtube Samsung eBike Battery CPHV52-25
Maybe won’t have great range at ~2kw, so will have to run a spare

Is there a reason you want 52v 80 amp over 72v 60 amp?

If you went 72v and 60amp the controller you brought up earlier in the thread (linked below) would still be an option:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w moto

P.S. It was mentioned earlier in the thread the 6T winding has more copper fill than either the 4T or 5T windings ( Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor ) so that is something to think about as well when making a decision regarding voltage.

 

[yantra yatra]

Is there a reason you want 52v 80 amp over 72v 60 amp?

If you went 72v and 60amp the controller you brought up earlier in the thread (linked below) would still be an option:

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w moto

P.S. It was mentioned earlier in the thread the 6T winding has more copper fill than either the 4T or 5T windings ( Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor ) so that is something to think about as well when making a decision regarding voltage.

View attachment 363461

I guess I was looking at 52v for cross compatibility with Bafang BBS, to have the ability to use the battery with other motors (prob not the best reason). Also for more torque and as really fast top speed isn’t necessary. And the form factor and price (got 20% off with sales) and 50S cells were appealing.

Has anyone used 50S cells? Their life cycle ratings don’t look good on specs, but that seems to be at very high charge and discharge rates. It’s unclear how their longevity would hold out at more reasonable usage.

Any have any ideas or experience?

On controllers, from what I was told by a retailer, the new Nucular sounds great, but I don’t have any update on when it will actually arrive.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Also for more torque and as really fast top speed isn’t necessary.

72v 60amp can regain torque while lowering speed by using a slower winding.

But yeah I can understand why you would want to use 52v if you already using 52v for a BBS02 or BBSHD simultaneously on the bike.

 

[neptronix]

Has anyone used 50S cells? Their life cycle ratings don’t look good on specs, but that seems to be at very high charge and discharge rates. It’s unclear how their longevity would hold out at more reasonable usage.

I have a 19.5ah pack with 50S cells. It starts sagging pretty bad at 35A.
If you are using that cell and you have the amp hungry 4T winding, i'd get a 30AH pack with those cells, at the absolute smallest.

Not a very high output cell.

 

[yantra yatra]

I have a 19.5ah pack with 50S cells. It starts sagging pretty bad at 35A.
If you are using that cell and you have the amp hungry 4T winding, i'd get a 30AH pack with those cells, at the absolute smallest.

Not a very high output cell.

Wow. That is surprising. The 25ah pack is sold as 80a continuous rating. I got a 2 year extended warranty, so I thought the seller must have faith it will have good longevity. I wouldn’t push it too hard but 35a is not anywhere near its rating

 

[yantra yatra]

72v 60amp can regain torque while lowering speed by using a slower winding.

But yeah I can understand why you would want to use 52v if you already using 52v for a BBS02 or BBSHD simultaneously on the bike.

That is probably the smart thing to do, to
Go 72v, but I figured keeping my bbs02, and DM01, on other bikes and being able to use the battery is good. Trying to get a shunt modded controller for the bbs02 so I’ll have a couple
Of higher powered options

 

[Bullfrog]

Just a couple notes....

A. You can run a BBSHD on 72v with an aftermarket controller...I did it.

B. Torque output for different motor windings...for the same BATTERY amperage, all windings of a given motor design (Leaf motor for example) will produce the same torque. The difference is in the phase amperage required...a fast wound motor (Leaf 3T for example) will require more PHASE amperage to output the same torque as a slow wound motor (Leaf 6T for example).

To be a little clearer...if your controller is capable of putting out enough PHASE amperage, the torque output of a given motor design like the Leaf motor for example is the same for all windings i.e. 4T, 5T, 6T, etc. assuming you feed them the same power i.e. Volts X BATTERY amperage.

The terms "Torque Winding" and "Speed Winding" for a given motor design are misnomers.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Torque output for different motor windings...for the same BATTERY amperage, all windings of a given motor design (Leaf motor for example) will produce the same torque. The difference is in the phase amperage required...a fast wound motor (Leaf 3T for example) will require more PHASE amperage to output the same torque as a slow wound motor (Leaf 6T for example).

To be a little clearer...if your controller is capable of putting out enough PHASE amperage, the torque output of a given motor design like the Leaf motor for example is the same for all windings i.e. 4T, 5T, 6T, etc. assuming you feed them the same power i.e. Volts X BATTERY amperage.

That is true if an unlimited phase amp controller with unlimited phase wire thickness situation existed....but in reality we are always limited by phase amps and thus the slower winding always produces more torque per amp.

P.S. Speaking of phase wire thickness why not just put the controller inside the motor? Use statorade to make sure it stays cool.

 

[lnanek]

People don't go with fast wind for more torque anyway, they do it for more top speed. Field weakening takes many amps and barely nets you a few percent more top speed over my motor's natural KV in my experience. So it's not a good alternative.

 

[neptronix]

P.S. Speaking of phase wire thickness why not just put the controller inside the motor? Use statorade to make sure it stays cool.

Inadequate space for existing controller designs, and even with statorade, both the controller and motor have to have their power since their heat generation is now combined.

Heat shedding of the controller will now be extremely poor.

Only a good idea if maintainability and power density matter much less than packaging to you.

Most combined motor + controller wheels have their controllers die early. Golden motor's magic pie went from a few generations of constant controller failure, to a design that places the controller out of the way of the motor heat. The downside of course is a widening of the hub motor, and additional unsprung weight.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Inadequate space for existing controller designs, and even with statorade, both the controller and motor have to have their power since their heat generation is now combined.

Heat shedding of the controller will now be extremely poor.

Only a good idea if maintainability and power density matter much less than packaging to you.

Most combined motor + controller wheels have their controllers die early. Golden motor's magic pie went from a few generations of constant controller failure, to a design that places the controller out of the way of the motor heat. The downside of course is a widening of the hub motor, and additional unsprung weight.

Hopefully the new motor controller designs coming out with GaN mosfets solve this problem.

The technology allows small size and high heat:

https://www.powerelectronicsnews.com/gan-based-motor-controllers-boost-efficiency-of-evs/

Gallium nitride (GaN), a wide-bandgap semiconductor offering better performance than silicon in power applications, is replacing traditional Si-based MOSFETs in circuits in which high efficiency and ability to operate at higher temperatures and frequencies are mandatory requirements.

Operating at the same voltage values, GaN devices exhibit lower temperatures and develop less heat. As a result, they can operate at higher temperatures (up to 225˚C and above) than silicon, which is limited by its lower junction temperature (150˚C to 175˚C).

 

[neptronix]

I still wouldn't want them. I want the full thermal headroom of a motor without additional things inside it. I want standardized, swappable parts that aren't specific to one motor. I want as absolutely low of unsprung weight as i can get.

No such thing exists on the market today anyhow.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I want the full thermal headroom of a motor without additional things inside it.

It depends on how much torque you want. By having your controller outside of the hub your phase wires can become a limiting factor forcing you to choose a slower winding.

If the winding gets too slow the "full thermal headroom" won't matter anyway because rpm has become too slow. Adding in field weakening helps regains top speed but also adds a lot of heat.

 

[scianiac]

It depends on how much torque you want. By having your controller outside of the hub your phase wires can become a limiting factor forcing you to choose a slower winding.

If the winding gets too slow the "full thermal headroom" won't matter anyway because rpm has become too slow. Adding in field weakening helps regains top speed but also adds a lot of heat.

I mean just adding larger phase wires seems way easier than putting the controller inside the motor. Yes you have to redesign the axle and bearing size slightly if you want to have tons of wire space but seems easier than rearranging the whole inside of the motor, making a custom controller in a weird shape that still can't be cooled well unless you start adding vent holes to the case.