Let's recycle ecar and hybrid lithium batts

[John in CR]

Does anyone know of a list of what lithium batteries are used in which electric cars and hybrids? As the car makers produce more cars with battery packs I have to believe there's opportunity for us to recycle those packs. Look at what we've done with used toolpacks, so imagine what we could do with car sized packs. What cars should we be looking for that contain great batteries that we couldn't buy otherwise?

 

[liveforphysics]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

The GM Volt uses LG chem NMC LiPo cells. They are 5C constant, 8C burst. They have extremely good safety, 10,000's of thousands of cycles, and a usable C-rate for Ebikes.


A Volt battery pack is what you want if you can find one.

 

[John in CR]

Hyundai Sonota hybrid has lithium too....Maybe those 20ah A123 cells??? I realize NMC's are better, but I'd buy those A123's at $.20/wh or less. What they lack in energy density they make up for in power density.

 

[Sunder]

This is a fantastic idea. I had never even thought of that.

Though now I look on eBay, there are few people selling them, and those few that are, still want near full price for used Prius Batteries (NiMh)

 

[John in CR]

This is a fantastic idea. I had never even thought of that.

Though now I look on eBay, there are few people selling them, and those few that are, still want near full price for used Prius Batteries (NiMh)

Right, and those NiMh batteries are only about a half a step better than lead. That's why need need our member network to be on the lookout, but have to know what cars to look for. It's what group buy dreams are made of.

 

[liveforphysics]

Hyundai Sonota hybrid has lithium too....Maybe those 20ah A123 cells??? I realize NMC's are better, but I'd buy those A123's at $.20/wh or less. What they lack in energy density they make up for in power density.

Ahh, yes, I forgot about the Hyundai. They also use NMC LiPo pouches made by EIG. They are 5C continuous, 10C burst, and extremely safe.

They would be another great Ebike pack.

 

[amberwolf]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

3C, but what capacity are the cells? If they're like 20Ah, that's 60A sustained capability, and that is most certainly enough for most ebikes. It's even enough for some of the racers.

Also easily possible to parallel them, right? Though I imagine they're not that small, so having to parallel them would make them a lot less desirable.

 

[John in CR]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

3C, but what capacity are the cells? If they're like 20Ah, that's 60A sustained capability, and that is most certainly enough for most ebikes. It's even enough for some of the racers.

Also easily possible to parallel them, right? Though I imagine they're not that small, so having to parallel them would make them a lot less desirable.

Luke always thinks in terms of light weight and high power ebikes. 20s50ah of 3c capable cells would suit me just fine, especially since they have almost double the energy density of batts like Thunder-Sags. For the right price 100ah or so of Thunder-sags would work fine for me on something like a multi-speed cargo trike, ie load capacity almost like a pickup truck, but capable of climbing grades that a regular pickup could only dream of.

 

[Joseph C.]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

3C, but what capacity are the cells? If they're like 20Ah, that's 60A sustained capability, and that is most certainly enough for most ebikes. It's even enough for some of the racers.

Also easily possible to parallel them, right? Though I imagine they're not that small, so having to parallel them would make them a lot less desirable.

Luke always thinks in terms of light weight and high power ebikes. 20s50ah of 3c capable cells would suit me just fine, especially since they have almost double the energy density of batts like Thunder-Sags. For the right price 100ah or so of Thunder-sags would work fine for me on something like a multi-speed cargo trike, ie load capacity almost like a pickup truck, but capable of climbing grades that a regular pickup could only dream of.

Something like this?

http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/professional-transport-trikes/workcycles-classic-dutch-bakfiets-size-xl

 

[Arlo1]

Cool. Ok guys I will start trying to run all volts and Hyundi's off the road so we can score them :wink:

 

[John in CR]

Cool. Ok guys I will start trying to run all volts and Hyundi's off the road so we can score them :wink:

Sounds good. They might even have motors and controllers we can put to much better use than in a 2 ton cage.

 

[oatnet]

It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

I'd think that 3c continuous would be fine for ebike use. At 3c you run out of current in 20 minutes. Most commuter packs I know have 30-60 minute run time, requiring a 2c-1c cont. discharge rate.

I can see how 3c might not meet your fairly extreme requirements, but for the large population here that is commuting at less than 40mph, and don't give a whit about racing, 3c is more than we need.

-JD

 

[Harold in CR]

From my searching for the past several months, looks to me like LKQ is trying to dominate the Hybrid battery recycle scene. Nearly all the Hybrid packs on Ebay other than Toyota, are posted by LKQ.

 

[liveforphysics]

It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

I'd think that 3c continuous would be fine for ebike use. At 3c you run out of current in 20 minutes. Most commuter packs I know have 30-60 minute run time, requiring a 2c-1c cont. discharge rate.

I can see how 3c might not meet your fairly extreme requirements, but for the large population here that is commuting at less than 40mph, and don't give a whit about racing, 3c is more than we need.

-JD

Ehh, for a gentle commuter, I agree. Leaf cells are saggy as hell under load though, and get hot quickly. For the amount of battery weight/size that you're lugging around, you're throwing away at least 10% of it in heating the cells rather than getting to spend that energy driving the motor. I also personally just hate the feeling of riding a saggy pack.

Also, as far as safety goes, when things go wrong with saggy low-C cells (like shorts etc), they often are not able to vaporize the short and/or connector, and can get hot enough to explode into flames. Over the course of trying to make a high-C rate pack explode from shorting it, I've never yet been able to do it, because the connector or contactor always vaporizes, or if you just mash together big 0awg leads or something, then the cell pops the tabs like a fuse and stops the short before anything exciting happens. In low-C cells, you short them, and they actually sit and get hot enough to often have venting or other things occur.

 

[John in CR]

Ok, it's sounds like we need to set our offer for crashed Leafs that net us packs at $.10/wh, maybe even $.15/wh, and save our good offers for those with much better cells.

 

[oatnet]

Also, as far as safety goes, when things go wrong with saggy low-C cells (like shorts etc), they often are not able to vaporize the short and/or connector, and can get hot enough to explode into flames.

Interesting data point I had not considered, thank you.

I forget if the 12ah green block cells from 2007 (FalconEV had them, later Justin sold them) were 3c or 5c, I shorted the balance wires of a 36v pack together - too much heat gun melted the insulation - and it was a minute or so before I got in there with a wire cutter and clipped the balance leads.

As you mention, it did not vaporize the balance wires and no plasma ball at 36v, but it burnt the piss out of the insulation and erupted much smoke. As I recall the cells were pretty hot, but didn't vent or explode, but I can see how with time you might get there. I learned to put fuses on my balance wires and take it easy with the heat gun.

-JD

 

[liveforphysics]

Ok, it's sounds like we need to set our offer for crashed Leafs that net us packs at $.10/wh, maybe even $.15/wh, and save our good offers for those with much better cells.

Nissan/NEC has claimed mfg cost is something like $0.26/watt-hour for the cells in a LEAF battery when brand new. (I bet that makes Tesla feel really dumb paying $0.22/watt-hour for garbage dangerous low-cycle-life cells that require a massively heavy and costly pack to use them safely.)

This is much cheaper than ~$0.40 for LG chem (Volt), but then again, the LG chem cells are capable of twice the power, much less sag, super-safe, and a huge 5-digit cycle life.

If you could get the EIG pack from a Hyundai, you would be a very happy man as well. Tier1 top notch quality stuff.

 

[neptronix]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

The GM Volt uses LG chem NMC LiPo cells. They are 5C constant, 8C burst. They have extremely good safety, 10,000's of thousands of cycles, and a usable C-rate for Ebikes.

If the Nissan leaf cells are over 170whr/KG, they would still be worth using as you'd be able to jam more amp hours on to the bike. If it's a true 3C constant capable, then 20 amp hours would give you 40A constant with a little headroom to reduce the coltage sag.. i'd hit it.

LG Chem stuff would be fun, but probably more $, harder to come by ( GM will probably locate the car via onstar and crush it as soon as it starts misbehaving )

Plug in prius probably has some stupidly high C rate NMC stuff in it.. i think those cars contain only 4kWh though?

Anyway i'm happy to be a bottom feeder and salivate over used car cells. It's better than playing russian roulette with hobbyking lipo, soldering together craptons of 18650's or dealing with other sag-o-riffic alternatives.

 

[liveforphysics]

What's neat about any of these packs, is they would all last a lifetime on an ebike if built correctly to start with, and never need balancing. Run thousands of cycles through them, and still have your cells inside of a mV or two of each other.

The cells used by OEM EV mfg's are pretty close to being a theoretical perfect battery. You dump in XX charge energy, it gives you back XX charge energy (minus loss from sag), and it does this effectively forever, and never needs any attention other than to not overcharge or over discharge.

 

[Jehu]

That would be realy good! How would that rate with lopo packs, 48 v 20 ah (= 8 5000ah packs) @ about 6kg i think. 100mmx 100mm x 300mm.

If they are obtainable, any idea howmuch we might pay for them? :?

What's neat about any of these packs, is they would all last a lifetime on an ebike if built correctly to start with, and never need balancing. Run thousands of cycles through them, and still have your cells inside of a mV or two of each other.

 

[neptronix]

Lower discharge rating ( though RC lipo already has a surplus )
Higher watt-hours per kG.. some formulations are 20%-25% lighter than RC lipo*
Safer.. i believe they do not flame, not sure if they will expel gas or not tho..

* = LFP correct me if i'm wrong, but RC lipo is generally 160wHr/KG whereas these NMC cells tend to range from 160-210wHr/KG, am i correct?

I've seen NMC/LiMnNi type stuff from allcell and BMSBattery that is quite a bit lighter than RC lipo, but it was low discharge..

 

[veloman]

The Nissan LEAF uses a 3C discharge capable NMC LiPo cell made by NEC/Nissan that is designed around extreme safety/reliability and low mfg cost. It would not very desirable for ebike use, as we need higher C-rates much more than we need >10,000cycles.

I test drove a Leaf today at their Drive Electric tour here in Austin TX. The guy said with 480v charging, the battery can be at 80% in 30 minutes. That sounds like a really high charging rate, how could 3c cells accept that? (he did admit it would reduce lifespan).

The acceleration was impressive to me, but I've never driven a fast car, just compact 4 cylinders.

 

[Hillhater]

Safer.. i believe they do not flame, not sure if they will expel gas or not tho.. ..

Are we dispelling the recent... "VOLT crash test fires" .. ??