LIFEPO4 from Ebikes.ca

kbarrett said:
I think the problem is that the original prismatic cell specs were a bit optimistic, and the battery makers took the cell factory at their word.

Which is why justin is selling these as "not ready for retail" ... he is learning that what the Chinese factory rep says, and what the product actually does, are two different animals entirely.
From the ebikes.ca frontpage:

ebikes.ca said:
Update Apr 14th - Our final testing of the BMS shows that it does do cell balancing at an acceptable rate at the end of the charge cycle, and packs that are out of balance do slowly get better each time the packs is used and then recharged. The only situation we can forsee where the batteries could drift out of balance again is if they are stored for prolonged periods of time without use.

My pack certainly hasn't been stored for a prolonged period of time without use! I'm over 228 miles in now since 5/8/08... :x I'll contact Justin once I run another test (assuming similar results).
 
A torn battery tab could do that ... both V and Ah ratings will be a bit low.

Maybe a careful unsealing is in order?

I'd tt justin first ... you cut the heatshrink yerself and you may end up owning the problem.
 
Quick update:
I did 520 km with my LIFEPO4 pack with no problems. Each trip I do is 22 to 25 km and I recharge every time.
:D
 
thanks for the updates that is sure good to know about those packs like Richard signature says:



efreak
 
OLIVIER said:
Quick update:
I did 520 km with my LIFEPO4 pack with no problems. Each trip I do is 22 to 25 km and I recharge every time.
:D

Yep, my range is about 45 kms before i do a charge. and after a long trip with hardly any peddaling, the battery pack never heats-up at all, very comforting.
I think these are good batteries, not cheap initially, but good value if they hold up.
Here's a picture of where i stuffed my 48 volt 12ah pack.
 

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The 36v 12ah batts I have are awesome. I did experience the symptoms you described of after a hard run wide open I lost all power for a minute and had to switch over to the other battery for a while it only happened a couple of times and if you wait a minute it comes back to life. I can tell you one thing they are tough I lost one at 40km/h it bounced down the road and I though oh no it is toast but it did not recieve any damage other that some scratches thank God. I get very good range about 35km on one battery running very hard. If you guys have a good solution for a faster charger I am all ears. I have about 300km on them and they perform very well. I have not discharged them more than 9 ah each so Im sure more range can be had. I have noticed little or no power loss near the end of the ride and am very happy with the purchase. Has anyone tested the cells to see if they are staying balanced? I am thinking of taking them apart in the fall and charging up the cells individually and testing everything before winter hits I may send em back to justin to have him take a look for me.
 
huskydave said:
I can tell you one thing they are tough I lost one at 40km/h it bounced down the road and I though oh no it is toast but it did not recieve any damage other that some scratches thank God. I get very good range about 35km on one battery running very hard. If you guys have a good solution for a faster charger I am all ears. Has anyone tested the cells to see if they are staying balanced? I may send em back to justin to have him take a look for me.

I'm very happy to hear you recovered the batteries you lost on the road. I strap mine down with nylon straps sew by hand to the frame on one side and use tightening buckle on the other, you can find these free everywhere, and easy to do.

I haven't tested the cells yet to ballance them manually, but was thinking about a theory of why none of us get the 12 AH we bought, perhaps they include the 40 volts leftover when the BMS cuts out. I'm sure they'd last longer.

Also i was thinking about getting the MUCH more expencive battery charger because it charges 33.3 % faster, and may work better than my 2-amp fleusy charger I use now.
Keep up the research guys.
 
I use a higher amperage sla charger that does not do the pulsing, desulphinating cycle to charge at work. Twice as fast. As long as I am balancing the pack again every night I don't see how this could harm it. The charger is 4 amp and pings charge rate spec it 5 amp. It just slightly undercharges the battery.
 
It is too bad that ebikes.ca does not offer a 4 or 5 amp charger. I would upgrade chargers. I have the 2.5a but the expensive charger only does 3a not much differance. If I had a 4 or 5 amp charger that balanced the cells I would be laughing. I could oppourtunity charge a lot more and go a lot farther and take more rides per day!
 
My Lifebatt 36V 10 ah do great. Hooked them in series with my 12 ah existing pack, at 26 km distance I was at 8ah, and total voltage was still about 75V. I had to be careful not to push it since i did not have my LVC board connected. Was doing 65 kph, the wind was causing me to tear up so much with sunglasses, I had to pull over. My CA showed lowest voltage at 64V, max amps at 42A.

Separating the packs, the existing 12 ah pack was at 38.8 V, the Lifebatt 10ah was at 38.5V. Not much difference between a 12 ah and 10 ah pack. Completely satisfied so far with Lifebatt.

DK
 
I have an ebikes.ca pack 36V 12Ah with Crystalyte 406, recently aquired in May, and I've done several rides with moderate assist for about 43-45 mile range, smallish hills. I've run out of juice once, around 10.8Ah - I have my LVC set to 32 volts on the CyceAnalyst. Is it possible that the rating (12Ah) refers to total capacity both above and below the LVC, so the amount used until the LVC cutoff is encountered is necessarily less than 12Ah? My immediately post-charge voltage on the CycleAnalyst reads 45.2 volts, and this drops moderately fast to around 38.9, with "spike-drops" under 36 regularly on higher Amp draw, then jumping back to 38.9 on throttling down...this "see-saw" on the CyceAnalyst continues until I get to the LVC, when things shut down rapidly after a minute just above and below LVC. I've done around 500 miles now, and I'm having a blast with the bike..I suppose that if the post-charge voltage remains at a high 45 volts right after charging, this would be a good sign that the pack remains well balanced...I'm getting wattage spikes to 900 watts on the CycleAnalyst, so it can put out lots of current. I am happy with the pack, and if I can nurse it for another 2000 charge cycles to get to 80% that will still be an 8 Ahr pack at that time. So I am keeping it charged up as much as possible, as I gather that LiFePO4 also prefers shallower discharges in general to extend life. So far so good.
 
Re using a larger charger: Having been using the LiPO4's from Aten Energy (48 volt 20AH) for about 7 months now and still thrilled, I've been down the road a couple of times re BMS and chargers.

The original BMS failed, in the rain naturally, making me pedal home. Needless to say I didn't like it. The transition from 25-30 effortless MPH to 8 working hard MPH was one of my least favorite things. This was made worse as I tend to carry everything but the kitchen sink on the bike and I ain't no lightweight youngster either. A phone call to Zane and I D/C'd the BMS and rerouted the charger and all was well albeit no BMS. It worked fine. Eventually I got the new 8 amp charger with built in BMS. If the pics download properly you can see there are a bunch of wires coming off the charger and each of them is connected to individual cells.

A normal run of around 16 - 20 miles will recharge in less than an hour and a long run in about an hour, I really don't time it but I know it doesn't take long. The pic doesn't show the name of the charger and I don't remember finding one and I don't have a manual for it. If anyone wants I'll take a better pic of the label and post it.

The advantage, as I see it, is no BMS cut out when running and BMS balancing when charging. I've never run the batteries out but have run >15AH on several occasions. The lowest reading on the watts up, after a brief rest has been in the 51 volt range and I don't know if the batteries will be working fine one minute and simply die the next although I expect that is what will happen. That's what happens with my lithium powered tools. I keep meaning to run them out but my butt gives out before the batteries do.

Mike
 

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Toshi said:
Olivier, have you tested your pack to see how many Ah you can extract from it? My 48V 12Ah petered out at just over 9Ah yesterday and I'm curious as to whether this holds true across the board.

I wrote the above on May 23. Today I spoke with ebikes.ca and I mentioned the above.

At this point it appears that I may have not been giving the pack enough time on the charger: from my NiCad days in the RC world years ago I have had the habit of taking packs off the charger soon after the light or other indicator goes green. For LiFePO4 chemistries with low-current balancing circuits in the BMS it is beneficial, I am told, to leave the battery on the charger overnight if possible.

I will charge the battery this way after use for a solid week then repeat the range test. With any luck I'll be up at 12 Ah.
 
Toshi said:
I will charge the battery this way after use for a solid week then repeat the range test. With any luck I'll be up at 12 Ah.

Thanks, i figured that from other posts also.

Your optimism is inspiring, i think lowering the lvc on the CA might get us higher if needed, plus the overnight charging which i've also not adhered to well. Thanks again for reminding me.
 
On my nominally 48V setup (typically 56V fresh off the charger) I have the CA's LVC at 37V. I've never seen it drop below 40 Vmin per the CA after the fact even when drawing 35A continuously with the pack almost nearly completely discharged.

With regard to charging overnight and green lights: I was told that the pack may only be 85-90% charged when the green light goes on initially. Trickle charging and the slow (~10 mA) balancing process take place from that point, and this can take many a moon, er, hour.
 
Does the charger continue to trickle charge once the fan quits? While I've never tried this with my other chargers and have no idea why I tried it with this one, I've noticed that if I disconnect the charger at the battery side and then reconnect it, the charger will kick back in for anywhere from a few seconds to a couple of minutes before it goes into its balancing act with all the individual cell lights coming on. It will do this immediately if I d/c it at the battery side but tends to ignore it if done on the 120 volt side though I can make it happen.

Plus, even though I can make the batteries read 57 - 58 volts this number is pretty much useless as they drop down to 53 something almost immediately after a load is applied. It seems pushing for that extra little bit simply isn't worth the effort, not that it's much of an effort.

Mike
 
I'm not sure if this last question was directed to me. I don't know in any case. 8) I'd contact ebikes.ca if they're the vendor that supplied your charger.
 
Today I passed the 1000 km mark!
I dont use my car anymore to go to work, what a pleasure!
My 36V 12Ah pack works just like when I bought it. The only incident I had was cranking the throttle while NOT sitting on the bike... The bike made a nice wheely, I think it hit the ceiling... :lol:
 
OLIVIER said:
Today I passed the 1000 km mark! I dont use my car anymore to go to work, what a pleasure!

Nice work! That's awesome! I just passed 330km... got a long way to go to catch you! :)
 
Sorry for my late entry, I just came across this thread in a Google search for something related...

We have been experimenting with packs from the same manufacturer since spring.We previously were working with PHET packs, but found them to be a bit too pricey for what they offered.

We got our packs after the manufacturer had designed a new BMS for better balancing (from Justin's feedback to them). There have been a few other issues, such as one pack whose BMS was programmed with too low of a charge voltage, and also, the packs switching off due to large capacitor inrush (for those controllers with big capacitors). But aside from those issues, I've used these packs (one 37V and the other 48V nominal) every day for the last 3 months on my 35A BMC/CurrieUSPD setup with an Xtracycle, and I've had a very good experience. We've also had a few customers testing them.

Like someone else said, they are nearly indestructible - I dropped a 48V pack out of the back of my Xtracycle panniers when going over a curb, and it was unscathed. I've taken them apart, and they are pretty well built on the inside. Anyway, my 36V sample pack (which was a warranty replacement for the one with incorrectly programmed BMS), has carried me at least 800 miles and 5-8 kwh of use.

In terms of capacity, we've found the packs to have slightly less capacity than rated. For example, the 10AH packs we got are really about 9.5Ah at low current. The catch is that when discharging at high current rates as you draw close to the limit, you risk prematurely shutting down the BMS. It will shut down not only when overall pack voltage gets low, but if an individual cell goes below about 2.3V. So if you are drawing a lot of current and one of the cells hits that voltage, it is game over. In my case, I've just learned that for the last Ah or so, to take it easy a bit, in order to not get the sudden cut-off.

Since we've found the packs to be well constructed and the manufacturer very serious about fixing any issues, we will be carrying them in the future. We're now set up for programming the BMS (cutoff voltages and etc), and also with replacement cells. Also, the manufacturer is almost done with a new BMS board that addresses the capacitor inrush issue (they've already addressed the cell balancing issue).

One thing we are going to do with ours that are different than the ebikes packs is put a locking loop on them, so you could run a cable lock through it (for a battery that is over $500 a pop, theft could be an issue). Also, an inline switch. If there are any other suggestions for improvements, now would be the time, we'd be happy to incorporate them if at all possible.

Morgan
cycle9.com
 

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C R A P !
First glitch: battery pack cuts out after a 5 km ride. I had to pedal back home, way too much work ;)
Measured voltage : 6.4 V ???
Plugged the charger for 5 seconds and voltage is at 39.4 V. After a full charge, the voltage is at 45 V.
I guess I am in a situation where cells are out of balance.
Just short of 2000 km ! Damn!
 
The pack is wraped with heat-shrink black plastic. I will check with EBIKES.ca before cutting it open.
 
Ouf!
I opened my battery pack after checking with EBIKES.ca and all my cells are at 3.2 V.
I found the problem: half of the electrical connections were loose. I carefully torqued them all, put a dab of liquid paper on the threads as they do in the aircraft industry to see if the nuts move. I just taped everything back together and plugged the charger. Victory, the battery now takes the charge! I will see tomorrow morning if the pack goes to 45 V like before. :D
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