Lipo fire- no one hurt- my fault

[etriker]

Not trying to bash lipo, I love it and use it.

But I like lifepo4 better for routine transportation riding that requires only 2c for my needs. I use lipo mostly on high performance ebikes for weekend fun.

In a way, the extra hazard is just part of the fun, much like playing with guns, flamethowers, etc. Just like other potentially dangerous toys, a bit of common sense and basic precautionary rules ensures safety. Like when you pick up a gun, try to unload it before you do anything, then when certian it's unloaded, including a round in the chamber, you still never do anything as stupid as pointing it at somebody.

The most dangerous thing in your house is likely the shower stall, but you don't give up washing you ass.

How does one love lipo ?

HK lipo ?

I am still mad I ever sent my money to HK for batteries.

I listened to people on this forum when I was a newbee.

So I get on here and try to keep other newbees from getting ripped off by HK for batteries.

That is more than ya'll did for me when I was a newbee.

 

[Ricky_nz]

Lipo killed that electric bike.

Wrong! Human error killed that electric bike.

 

[etriker]

Lipo killed that electric bike.

Wrong! Human error killed that electric bike.

Right ? It was humans that built and sold those crap batteries and it was humans that suggested putting those crap batteries on that nice bike !

And it was a human that hooked up those crap batteries wrong.

Crap batteries can't handle being hookup up wrong very well.

They react in a very crappy way.

 

[Ykick]

No battery (crap or non-crap) can tolerate being hooked up the wrong way!

All method of energy storage carries significant risk. Ignore that if you're into flattering yourself with choice of battery chemistry but, fact is fact.......

 

[etriker]

No battery (crap or non-crap) can tolerate being hooked up the wrong way!

All method of energy storage carries significant risk. Ignore that if you're into flattering yourself with choice of battery chemistry but, fact is fact.......

That is where you are all mixed up ! ! !

It is not the battery chemistry choice ! ! ! Crap battery construction and design is the problem with HK lipo ! ! !

 

[t3sla]

Plugging a charged 3s pack to a charged 4s pack does result in fire. This has been well tested (most often by accident).

That was a very nice looking ebike before the fire. Do you have a link for that little bag? Ive got a roadbike im building that could use a little bag like that.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MTB-Bicy...ries&hash=item2a277181a3&_uhb=1#ht_5956wt_840

Lots of variants, my one can take 2X 8Ah 5S packs nice and snug

http://i.imgur.com/ebGRm.jpg

Perfect strap and go solution, the Velcro holds.
I added zip ties through the plastic loops to be sure.

 

[BikeFanatic]

I edited the first post to make the senario more clear.

I got those bags off Ebay they are everywhere, the little blue ones are perfect for 5 series and the yellow ones are larger, good for 4 s hardcase or even 6 series. Here is a link to my bag, I paid 8-10 dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bike-bag-Bi...396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a6b9921c

That is a BUMMER that the headtube could fail! I had that tidal force since 2009 and it is a great bike. Although it is too large for me anyway.
I am very small of stature female, and could use a small to extra small frame. Thanks for telling me about that I would not have known.

I still love my Lipo, but obviously I need a change in the routine or in the connecting/ connector issues. I used to use fuses but sine they never popped I got complacent. I could try yellow power poles on the lights, or just PAY attention when connecting. I get so complacent just have to think of those lipos as little bombs ( actually a gun was a good analogy).

 

[etriker]

I edited the first post to make the senario more clear.

I got those bags off Ebay they are everywhere, the little blue ones are perfect for 5 series and the yellow ones are larger, good for 4 s hardcase or even 6 series. Here is a link to my bag, I paid 8-10 dollars.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bike-bag-Bi...396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a6b9921c

That is a BUMMER that the headtube could fail! I had that tidal force since 2009 and it is a great bike. Although it is too large for me anyway.
I am very small of stature female, and could use a small to extra small frame. Thanks for telling me about that I would not have known.

I still love my Lipo, but obviously I need a change in the routine or in the connecting/ connector issues. I used to use fuses but sine they never popped I got complacent. I could try yellow power poles on the lights, or just PAY attention when connecting. I get so complacent just have to think of those lipos as little bombs ( actually a gun was a good analogy).

Would you buy and shoot a gun or flamethrower you bought at hobbyking ?

And use HK lipo without fuses ? Where in the world did you get that idea ?

Ouch !

 

[Ricky_nz]

Would you buy and shoot a gun or flamethrower you bought at hobbyking ?

The fact the cells came from hobby king has nothing to do with this failure!
That said any battery pack should be fused properly.

 

[etriker]

The more I learn about bicycles and riding the more I like quality bicycle parts.

That bike was way too good for HK lipo.

 

[etriker]

Would you buy and shoot a gun or flamethrower you bought at hobbyking ?

The fact the cells came from hobby king has nothing to do with this failure!
That said any battery pack should be fused properly.

I know what HK is selling and what is inside.

Very poor construction and design.

I am sorry the people that have their user names in red and blue won't tell you this.

 

[wesnewell]

Yep. All lipo should be banned. We should also ban the sale of knives. All knives, from pen to butter knifes. These are all dangerous objects and if you run and fall with one you could kill yourself. Same for forks of all kinds. Especially those with long tongs like you use on the grill. Spatulas too. Sharp edges can cut you. Spoons are mostly safe, but should be banned too. Never know when someone will forget to take it out of their mouth and walk into a wall and kill themselves or go to kiss someone with the spoon still in their mouth and put someones eye out. While we're at it, we have to ban bicycles altogether for fear some idiot that doesn't know how to ride one will get injured. And then.......
I'm so sick of hearing how dangerous lipo (lico) is I could just take a spoon and kill myself. We need to ban all batteries. None of them are safe in the hands of idiots.

 

[MattyCiii]

Thanks for sharing BikeFanatic.

People learn most from their own mistakes, but to the extent we can learn from your story, you are helping other people.

Where in MA are you? I'm toying with the idea of organizing a Boston area group meet up/ride this summer.

 

[amberwolf]

I know what HK is selling and what is inside.

Very poor construction and design.

I am sorry the people that have their user names in red and blue won't tell you this.

Maybe you should try reading the many threads around here on the forums that describe and picture what is inside, and call out these issues?

Maybe even look at the wiki article that links many of the various fire threads?

There's certainly no secret being held by members with admin or guru status. Anybody that thinks that hasn't read many of these battery threads.

 

[amberwolf]

Regarding the headtube and frame condition: How long did the packs burn before they were removed from the frame? If it was cold and wet already, then on an alloy frame that conducts heat pretty well I expect it'd take a while before anything *could* get hot enough to worry about.

Did the frame ever get too hot to touch? If not, then I doubt seriously that any damage could have occured. Otherwise every frame left out in the sun here in AZ is destroyed and shouldnt' be ridden. :lol:

Was the frame still warm when you got back on the bike? Again, if not, I doubt any part of it even got hot much less hot enough to damage it.

Did the paint burn off anywhere? Or just get singed?

 

[oatnet]

That is a BUMMER that the headtube could fail! I had that tidal force since 2009 and it is a great bike. Although it is too large for me anyway.
I am very small of stature female, and could use a small to extra small frame. Thanks for telling me about that I would not have known.

IIRC when I weld aluminum it is supposed to be annealed. If the batteries burned themselves out against the frame, and got the frame as hot as welding does, I would be concerned. If you knocked them off the frame right away, maybe as AW points out it did not get heated up enough to be at risk. It comes down to a judgement call.

I have worked similar fitment issues with my 5' tall wife, I have perspective on those challenges. The Tidalforce "IO Step-Through" frame really suits her, I left one stock and built another with a bafang motor. I turned the cloud 9's seat-clamp upside down, and got her another inch of clearance that barely got her where she wanted to be. The side-by-side with one of my bikes shows how low it is.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, I have played with lots of homemade flamethrowers of very sketchy quality. Not big ones though, only shoot flames about 40 feet or so. And some guns Iv'e had were no better QC than a HK pack. One shotgun I took back to K mart for warranty replacement 6 times, then had it properly repaired.

Did I say HK lipo was high quality? Usually I say buy extras to replace the failed ones. I'm the guy with the colored name that tells people to be damn carefull.

In any case, the worlds higest quality 3s battery paralled with a 4s battery will be a disaster. The fire had nothing to do with the quality of the packs.

As for the frame, if the paint is burned completey off the bike, I would be leery of riding it anymore. Looking again at the pics, I still see some logo on it. Maybe it's just a lot of melty plastic I'm seeing rather than burned off paint. I'd say if the paint remains even if really ugly, it's still ok.

 

[BikeFanatic]

Oatnet: that has to be one of the coolest looking stepthrough frames I ever saw. Must be the triple crown fork. Some women feel they have to be able to touch the ground feet flat, like a townie electra. I don't need it that low but my next bike may be woman specific since they do make them these days.

Amberwolf, Good call, I went downstairs and wiped the bike with a rag and all the damage seems to be smoke dameage. The black wiped off except for the spacers and the stem. I am replacing that stem anyway with a shorty one so I can reach the bars easier. The tidal force was very well packed and came with plastic film over the emblem in the front. This plastic i never removed in 3 years and it is still there intact. I peeled some away so you can visualize in the picture. SO if the plastic didn't melt then the frame didn't get THAT hot.


I think what might of happened is that the batteries burnt through the plastic case and fell away from the bike. My memory is cloudy but the wires on my bike light only burnt an inch or two of insulation off and I do recall the light was still running the whole time off the other pack. I picked up the bike and walked to work from there 2 - 3 blocks, holding the handle bars .

I won't hold you liable Amberwolf but do you think it is ok to ride?

 

[BikeFanatic]

Opps dogman posted while I was writing..Thanks for the info everyone I do appreciate it.

Yes the paint remains intact, that brown spot is spray paint. I think I can ride i but will be very cautious for now. I have another tidal force frame
on my extracycle. I can be more care free with that bike.

 

[mushymelon]

No need to worry about the frame it's not compromised at all.

 

[dnmun]

yep, not hot at all, the poly rayon of the velcro strap around the headtube never even melted. it never got hot, just smoke.

it would be neat if the hobby kings could slip inside a nomex sleeve so they could be handled when hot. also maybe think ahead about how the disconnection would have to happen if one lit up, but this was just a 4S on 3S accident.

i would be concerned that someone may think it is a bomb. like dogman i am surprised it took so long to ignite.

 

[etriker]

I know what HK is selling and what is inside.

Very poor construction and design.

I am sorry the people that have their user names in red and blue won't tell you this.

Maybe you should try reading the many threads around here on the forums that describe and picture what is inside, and call out these issues?

Maybe even look at the wiki article that links many of the various fire threads?

There's certainly no secret being held by members with admin or guru status. Anybody that thinks that hasn't read many of these battery threads.

I really think that ya'll just don't know what a good quality battery pack is and how it is designed and built.

Not that you are keeping a secret. Ya'll just don't know any better ?

That is what I am sorry about.

Good quality bicycle parts rule and a battery pack has become a bicycle part.

 

[etriker]

This whole cheap lipo on ev fires thing makes me feel sorry for the whole ev movement.

 

[BikeFanatic]

Dnmun,
Keen observation! Looking at it now I see that strap is indeed intact. So I guess that the battery dropped out after burning a big hole through
the bag. I am so glad to keep the tidal force frame, the dropouts are strong and holding after over 3 years, I hope if I add the shorty stem I can ride it comfortably for a few more years without worrying about a catastrophic failure. Thanks !

 

[etriker]

Well, I have played with lots of homemade flamethrowers of very sketchy quality. Not big ones though, only shoot flames about 40 feet or so. And some guns Iv'e had were no better QC than a HK pack. One shotgun I took back to K mart for warranty replacement 6 times, then had it properly repaired.

Did I say HK lipo was high quality? Usually I say buy extras to replace the failed ones. I'm the guy with the colored name that tells people to be damn carefull.

In any case, the worlds higest quality 3s battery paralled with a 4s battery will be a disaster. The fire had nothing to do with the quality of the packs.

As for the frame, if the paint is burned completey off the bike, I would be leery of riding it anymore. Looking again at the pics, I still see some logo on it. Maybe it's just a lot of melty plastic I'm seeing rather than burned off paint. I'd say if the paint remains even if really ugly, it's still ok.

How in the world would you know that a quality battery pack would do the same thing ? ? ?

Have you tried ?

High quality battery packs have fuses or a bms ?