LiPoly evolves while LiFePO4 is stagnant?

[pgt400]

Other places to buy 14AH cells? As far as I am aware these are a LifeBatt only product, developed by people employed by LifeBatt. They spent a lot of cash to develop these, I for one will understand if they come at a premium until they have paid for themselves. I don't mind paying a company that continues to improve its products.
Same weight/size as the 10AH, making them about the highest wh/kg available in LifePo4 (and very close to Lipo's too)

Jozzer, I got a head-up from PSI months ago that 14AH were the cells under development and testing. Sorry, mate - marketing speak aside - these are PSI cells.

Thats interesting......despite all the mis-information in the past, PSI always seems to end up being the real manufacture.

 

[bearing]

I admit that 200A out of these pouch tabs seems incredible!.. I would be curious to know their temp at the end of 40C discharge and also their nominal internal resistance!

In the graph it looks like about 0.4V difference (or lower) between 40C an 7C . If the graph is reliable the cell should have about 2.5 mΩ internal resistance.

0.4 V / ((40-7)*5 A) = 2.4 mΩ

Thats about half of A123 paralleled to the same capacity. Since less cells have to be in series to make the same total voltage, the pack resistance should be less than half of the equivalent A123-pack.

 

[recumbent]

Could the difference in 10Ah vs 14Ah be the percentage of Phostech cathode powder?

According to some of the literature about LIFEPO4 batteries, it mentions the barrier material between the cathode and the anode is very important, like the permiability and other big words. Implying this chemistry definately has a lot of potential and will only get better.

I wish we had more solid information tho.

 

[pgt400]

No, I don't think anyone has them yet. Jozzer and others are supposed to get them for thier Isle of Mann bikes. They are mentioned on Lifebatts web page

 

[methods]

Three more very nice packs just came out.
They have these in 2S, 3S, 4S, 5S, and 6S
20C, 25C, 30C Continuous
30C, 35C, 40C Burst

5000mah 6S 20C $86.00
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8582

5000mah 6S 25C $99.00
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8586

5000mah 6S 30C $114.00
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8590

*Note: These prices are cheaper than what you see but not as cheap as what Luke sees.
I am just shy of platinum prices.

Dont worry about the funky power connectors. I always cut whatever they put on there off anyway.


btw: Notice that nobody is talking about Lipo Luke? Weird eh?

-methods

 

[safe]

It's just fun to watch as the differing chemistries rise and fall in public image and at the same time rise and fall in price. It's as though there are two separate worlds... one world where people base their purchase on the "coolness factor" and the other where people look at the bottom line.

LiPoly is very respectable right now... I would have no problem being "uncool" and choosing a pack based on value.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

It's just fun to watch as the differing chemistries rise and fall in public image and at the same time rise and fall in price. It's as though there are two separate worlds... one world where people base their purchase on the "coolness factor" and the other where people look at the bottom line.

LiPoly is very respectable right now... I would have no problem being "uncool" and choosing a pack based on value.

ಠ_ಠ

(thanx LofH, hope u don mind)



remaining stagnant & in fact going backwards with a bogus lawsuit,
tells me that the military is hanging onto the good stuf & we'll only get to see it once they move onto something better.

 

[recumbent]

remaining stagnant & in fact going backwards with a bogus lawsuit,
tells me that the military is hanging onto the good stuf & we'll only get to see it once they move onto something better.

Which lawsuit, or i should ask, about what exactly.

The military just uses different chemistries to suit the applications I'm sure.

Lipoly battery weight in ebike sizes is only 4 Lbs lighter overall, and we still have to build the box, rewire it all up, and get half the lifespan, theoreticaly. As nobody has yet tested LIFEPO4 batteries to the 2,000 cycle limit yet

The high "C" rating of Lipoly is indeed a great bonus.

 

[methods]

This is related, but not directed at anything.

In my experience the things that Military and government look for in a battery are not necessarily things that we place a high value on.
For instance I dont really care if my battery has a 20 year shelf life, is rad hard (safe from radiation), can handle extreme temperature, can handle extreme shock, has been tested thoroughly. . .

Quite the opposite, what I am looking for is a battery that is light weight and fresh off the drawing board. Prototype stuff. I want a smaller up front cost and I am willing to accept some risk with that. I could care less about shelf life, self discharge, temperate range (California), etc. I am an early adopter and I want to do beta testing in return for short waits and low prices.

My point is that unfortunately when battery manufactures get money/help from the government (we are currently testing A123 cells at my company) the kind of stuff they are looking for and trying to improve upon are not necessarily the kinds of things that will make our life any better. Quite the contrary, the batteries will probably get worse by our standards as the focus and values shift toward a different end use.

-methods

 

[safe]

I could care less about shelf life, self discharge, temperate range (California), etc. I am an early adopter and I want to do beta testing in return for short waits and low prices.

I care about shelf life.

The idea that something can last for a decade is very attractive to me because in all probability there will be a time when I am off doing other things than ebikes and would only get to ride once and a while. If my pack died on me I would probably not buy new stuff just because I would not want the expense. (so long shelf life stretches the length of time that you stay satisfied with the sport)

The main thing that I focus on now is price and performance.

The LiPoly cells used to be a lot more expensive and about a year ago the packs would cost $1000 and lacked the necessary circuitry to make it all work right.

With the RC model industry they have the high volume and can get the prices down to something that makes sense. It has really been the growth of a totally separate industry (RC parts industry) that's opening up everything for ebikes.

LiPoly is still the lighest way to go and that's important on RC planes and helicopters.

 

[methods]

The kind of shelf life I am talking about is nit-picking 15 years vs. 20 years
Obviously they cant test for that long so it is all about posturing and projecting and "accelerated aging" which is really just "sophisticated thumb in the air".
All of the stuff out today will sit on the shelf until it is about as useful as a 5.5" floppy disk
I have Lipo packs that I have not charged in a year and they are ready to fly without a top-off.
(yea, yea... Store at 3.7V I store at 4.2V so they are ready for me :| I have hundreds of deep cycles on those packs too.)

-methods

 

[recumbent]

I have Lipo packs that I have not charged in a year and they are ready to fly without a top-off.
(yea, yea... Store at 3.7V I store at 4.2V so they are ready for me :| I have hundreds of deep cycles on those packs too.)

That's a very impressive feature, one of the major drawbacks of NICAD and other Nickel based battery, is the need to be topped-up after only a week it seemed. But LIFEPO4 chemistries also hold a charge for a very long time.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Which lawsuit, or i should ask, about what exactly.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5823&p=90092



interesting that only the larger format 26650 deWalts have been discontinued by deWalt, excuse being the lawsuit.
it's a repeat of the NiMH story, anytime we get (barely) large enuf cells hit the streets they get sued off the market.

the military has laptops so it's battery requirements are only a superset of ours.
also they can & have confiscated patents if they can't get exclusive arrangements from companies for disruptive tech they feel will benefit potential enemies if it becomes openly available to the public.

 

[GGoodrum]

interesting that only the larger format 26650 deWalts have been discontinued by deWalt, excuse being the lawsuit.

Where did you read that? I just checked the whole DeWalt site and could not find anything about discontinuing their 36V and/or 28V packs, both of which use the 26650 cells. Both products are still prominently featured.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

then why can't I buy them at my local home depot?
after waiting nearly 2 years for them to finally show up, they weren't on the shelf for more than 6 months when they disappeared & haven't come back almost a year now.
All I know is that i've checked each of the half dozen local stores several times & every time was told they've been discontinued.
maybe they just haven't updated their website.

HD is B&D so if I can't believe them, why won't they carry their own product?
or why won't they order it for me when I'm waving hundred dollar bills in their face begging them to take my money?
What are they in business for, right when they're in the midst of big layoffs claiming sales are down.
It's when simple things like this don't add up that something stinks, thats fer sur.

 

[recumbent]

Lawsuits take many years to complete, and until that time, perhaps it's still a free market.

I'm amazed the lawsuit says specificly lithium iron phosphate as the chemical. Can they really stop the manufacturers from making these cells?

 

[TylerDurden]

The good news is that the UT patent got shot down in EU last month (for lack of novelty). So Europe is open.

http://ir.valence.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=353702

The US & Canada are reviewing the UT patents (still), in light of the Valence and HQ lawsuits.

China........ patents..........?

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

The good news is that the UT patent got shot down in EU last month (for lack of novelty). So Europe is open.

http://ir.valence.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=353702

The US & Canada are reviewing the UT patents (still), in light of the Valence and HQ lawsuits.

China........ patents..........?

that is good news & the first i've heard of it, thanx.
like i said, my feeling was it seemed baseless from the begining, a rather transparent stalling tactic more than anything to hinder development for whatever reason.

found one of a number of threads on several forums iv'e surfed where people were having difficulty getting a hold of 26650 a123.
reading the EV car forums they have the same complaint, never occurred to me to bookmark them thought it was out there already.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=917831

 

[GGoodrum]

then why can't I buy them at my local home depot?
after waiting nearly 2 years for them to finally show up, they weren't on the shelf for more than 6 months when they disappeared & haven't come back almost a year now.
All I know is that i've checked each of the half dozen local stores several times & every time was told they've been discontinued.
maybe they just haven't updated their website.

HD is B&D so if I can't believe them, why won't they carry their own product?
or why won't they order it for me when I'm waving hundred dollar bills in their face begging them to take my money?
What are they in business for, right when they're in the midst of big layoffs claiming sales are down.
It's when simple things like this don't add up that something stinks, thats fer sur.

That really doesn't mean anything. My local HD has never had them. The reason is that these are considered part of their "professional" line of tools, and they aren't made available in all their normal retail channels. Go to the DeWalt website. You can order whatever you want.

 

[morph999]

wow, those are cheap. How would you hook those up in series? Is it hard?

Does this charger work with these packs?

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8582&Product_Name=ZIPPY_Flightmax_5000mAh_6S1P_20C_

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3823&Product_Name=3E_Lipo_Charger_2-5Cell_w/_Balancer

Thanks

 

[morph999]

If I bought those batteries, can someone help me hook it up to my controller? That looks the best deal.

I guess this charger
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6789&Product_Name=MAX_E6_Digital_Lipo_Charger_

goes with this battery....correct ?

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8582

Since it's a 6 cell and that other charger only charged 2 - 5 cell.

 

[liveforphysics]

I would recommend this charger:

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=6792&Product_Name=iCharger_106B-plus_250W_6s_Balance/Charger


Your charge time would be cut in half, it's under a 100bucks, it's less than a pound for the charger itself, and the functionality totally kicks ass. I have 4 of them, and I love them. A lot of charging bang for the buck.

 

[nomad85]

It's 120$ for normal people 110$ for me... how does one get the platinum prices?
Still it is the best one to get

 

[liveforphysics]

I think you get platinum pricing after you've spent $5,000 with them (not 100% sure, might be other ways to get it too).

I have "platinum 10k" prices, which I think happens after spending $10,000 with them. I think it roughly just takes off another 10% off of the platinum prices.

 

[liveforphysics]

I've also heard it's possible to get better prices than I get. Something like "Vender" is the highest status you can get, and prices get knocked down another step. But, I could be thinking of a different website.

Anyway you cut it though, hobbycity totally kicks ass for prices no matter what your "status level" happens to be.

I often see them selling identical items at 1/5th or even 1/10th the cost they are sold at my local hobby shop. They do like to stab into you for shipping, however, once you've had to mail things to Hong Kong a few times, you realize their shipping is not too unreasonable.