Liquid Nitrogen Cooled Superconducting Motor for EVs

[Doctorbass]

Developped in 2008 and i never heard about that!! :|

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/06/sumitomo-electr.html

and guess what?... This motor have something called... A FLUX COLLECTOR!!... remember something like Flux Capacitor.. lol

Yeah... i know... it's "just" 13% efficiency gain... but...

Doc

 

[bigmoose]

Dr, here is a bit of research on a LN2 cooled test motor run 5 or 6 years ago. First one is a summary report:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090022004_2009021559.pdf
This one has full data:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070028414_2007025905.pdf

The neat thing was how close pure copper in LN2 resistivity came to much more expensive superconductors.

Another gent that designed some fascinating cryogenic generators and motors is Larry Long of Long Electromagnetics in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. Long was partial to YBCO and MgB2 as his super conductor(s) of choice if i recall correctly.

Pictures of Long's alternator in this paper:
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2005/TM-2005-213800.pdf

Look at figure 5 in this paper, 600 Kw in the size of half a bread box that ran in liquid Hydrogen, but had the potential of 1Mw, but only tested to the 600Kw!
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA537468

 

[lutach]

I looked into it a few years back when I sold some very expensive electronic components to a company that makes such motors for the marine industry (Navy). I asked them if a small 1-2MW motor can be made for a vehicle and was told they can make it, but the motor controller (inverter) would be huge along with wire capable of handling the huge amount of AMPs they require, which is why it makes sense to use such system in a ship and submarine.

 

[lutach]

Sorry, forgot to post links of places that uses such motors:

http://atg.ga.com/EM/defense/dc-motor/index.php

http://www.gdeb.com/

 

[Doctorbass]

Dr, here is a bit of research on a LN2 cooled test motor run 5 or 6 years ago. First one is a summary report:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090022004_2009021559.pdf
This one has full data:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20070028414_2007025905.pdf

The neat thing was how close pure copper in LN2 resistivity came to much more expensive superconductors.

Another gent that designed some fascinating cryogenic generators and motors is Larry Long of Long Electromagnetics in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. Long was partial to YBCO and MgB2 as his super conductor(s) of choice if i recall correctly.

Pictures of Long's alternator in this paper:
http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/reports/2005/TM-2005-213800.pdf

Look at figure 5 in this paper, 600 Kw in the size of half a bread box that ran in liquid Hydrogen, but had the potential of 1Mw, but only tested to the 600Kw!
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA537468

Thanks bigmoose, that was really interesting. My past job was in a high temp supraconductor lab research. I had the opportunity to see by my own eyes some quench testing for the installation of a new 18Tesla supra magnet and cryostat.

That was really impressive to see the helium to evaporate anf fill the lab in few sec... we was out of that lab as well !

Now i imagine what would happen when the motor could quench and quit the supra state... and toast in an instant the precious winding of that motor!


Like lutach said... it make non sence to create so high power density motor without also thinking about the size of the controller!

You know.. after playing with often over 10kW in our X5 motor, i know how the temp affect them!... and at 3kW continous average, these motor reach a steady temp of 140 celsius and are stable and mine totalize over 10000km total without a single problem about temperature. I can say that the acceleration at these high temp is far lower than when the motor is at 300Kelvin !

Problem with our diy motor mod is that if we would like to cool down our motor... just like the overclocker do with their 7GHz processors clock, is that the magnets glue would loose their propriety and would break too easy. Normally the TCE of the glue for Neodium magnet only match with ambiant or hot temp... and at low or very low temp, it loose his propriety...

Maybe one day some of us will try using some masterbound cryogenic grade glue and better hold the magnet to the case...

and succed to fill the motor with liquid nitrogen just the time for a 1/4 mile run !

Doc

 

[lutach]

Just imagine if the propulsion of choice stayed Electric instead of the I.C. engines we now have? I have people that tells me the I.C. engine was one of the best inventions for the automobile and I tell them something different lol. I usually start by: in over 100 years, the I.C. engine has made little progress. The comes a little argument and asking for explanation so this follows. I let them know that some of the first vehicles were Electric and were the ones setting multiple speed records and Mr. Porsche made an amazing hybrid vehicle back in the early days. I also ask them to see the Electronic Revolution and how fast it's progressing and by now they are starting to think. So I end with: Imagine if those 100 years or so wasn't wasted in the I.C., but used to make advances with the Electric vehicle propulsion, where would the technology be now?

I can only dream of how society would be greatly improved by it. We could have motors, controller/inverters, batteries and everything else associated with it that would be things some of us only dream about now and we might not see it in our short period on this beautiful planet.

 

[Doctorbass]

Just imagine if the propulsion of choice stayed Electric instead of the I.C. engines we now have? I have people that tells me the I.C. engine was one of the best inventions for the automobile and I tell them something different lol. I usually start by: in over 100 years, the I.C. engine has made little progress. The comes a little argument and asking for explanation so this follows. I let them know that some of the first vehicles were Electric and were the ones setting multiple speed records and Mr. Porsche made an amazing hybrid vehicle back in the early days. I also ask them to see the Electronic Revolution and how fast it's progressing and by now they are starting to think. So I end with: Imagine if those 100 years or so wasn't wasted in the I.C., but used to make advances with the Electric vehicle propulsion, where would the technology be now?

I can only dream of how society would be greatly improved by it. We could have motors, controller/inverters, batteries and everything else associated with it that would be things some of us only dream about now and we might not see it in our short period on this beautiful planet.

Yeah.. that is true... and many of the first cars near the 1900' WAS ELECTRIC CAR !.. but the debate of the petroleum was different...

Doc

 

[mat h physics]

Would it have to be liquid nitrogen? Could liquid CO2 be a substitute?
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/c123/phasesdgm.html

A diagram would be nice but will do what I can with words. Use dry ice (commonly avb) by a feed chamber, say 30-50mm diam and 200mm long cylinder form. A cap would seal from the top to create pressure, once at 8 atm pressure it will turn liquid activating a float valve to drop into a pressurized resevoir. Once drained, the feed chamber would be isolated from high pressure, allowing a bleed valve to release pressure so it can be refilled with another cylinder of dry ice. The stator winding laminates would be hollowed out to allow the liquid to settle into the lower laminates and a pressure relief valve would be installed in the upper winding (outrunner design), allowing the evaporating gasses to be released to atmosphere.

As for gluing the magnets, get rid of the glue. Make the magnets form fitting to the housing in a semi circular "keystone" shape.

 

[Doctorbass]

Would it have to be liquid nitrogen? Could liquid CO2 be a substitute?
http://www.science.uwaterloo.ca/~cchieh/cact/c123/phasesdgm.html

A diagram would be nice but will do what I can with words. Use dry ice (commonly avb) by a feed chamber, say 30-50mm diam and 200mm long cylinder form. A cap would seal from the top to create pressure, once at 8 atm pressure it will turn liquid activating a float valve to drop into a pressurized resevoir. Once drained, the feed chamber would be isolated from high pressure, allowing a bleed valve to release pressure so it can be refilled with another cylinder of dry ice. The stator winding laminates would be hollowed out to allow the liquid to settle into the lower laminates and a pressure relief valve would be installed in the upper winding (outrunner design), allowing the evaporating gasses to be released to atmosphere.

As for gluing the magnets, get rid of the glue. Make the magnets form fitting to the housing in a semi circular "keystone" shape.

Very cold winding also is more efficient... but the problem remain that the glue of the magnet MUST be able to sustain that very low tempremember that liquid nitrogen make nearly every material become very fragile!

So the suggestion about keystone" shape is good.. i think that the motor of the nissan leaf and also the prius are made with that principle.

Doc