Lithium Battery FIRE Questions

[marty]

I see two types of lithium batteries. Cylindrical and pouches. Are the ones that sometimes catch on fire the pouch ones? Do the cylindrical cells ever catch on fire?

Reason I ask is I have been experimenting with Makita power tool battery packs. Does any one know of any fires involving these Makita cylindrical cells?

Copy details from:
Konion Makita LiMn battery care and feeding by Doctorbass
Post by Doctorbass » Fri May 06, 2011 2:06 am
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27707

Here are their specs:

18650V: ( the most popular for ebikes)
( same as the Sanyo’s UR18650W)

-Voltage range: 3.0 to 4.2V
-Nominal voltage 3.7V
-Capacity: 1500mAh(10C) to 1600mAh(1C)
-Max Discharge C rate: 10C ( 15-16A)
-Max Charge C-rate: 1.5 to 2C depending on the cooling
-Cycle life: 700 cycles to 75% initial capacity ( from BMZ manufacture)
-Cycle life claimed by Makita: 1200 cycles
-Internal resistance 30miliohm per cells
-Released in 2005... still existing in 2011



18650VT:

-Voltage range: 3.0 to 4.1 or 4.2V
-Nominal voltage 3.76V
-Capacity: 1030mAh(10C), 1080mAh, ( 1C) to 1300mAh(0.1C)
-Max Discharge C rate: 15C ( 17-20A)... and 30A for 30 sec
-Max Charge C-rate: 3C depending on the cooling
-Cycle life: 500 cycles to 90% of initial capacity, at 2A discharge ( from BMZ manufacture)
-Cycle life claimed by Makita: 1200 cycles
-Internal resistance :initial is 25 miliohm ( 26-28 miliohm of used cells)
-Gravimetric energy94 Wh/kg
-Released in 2005... still existing in 2011

 

[el_walto]

Yes, both types of cells can catch fire.
Here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/user/liveforphysics532#p/u/34/dree0rTr1HM

 

[liveforphysics]

Can or pouch makes no difference, other than the pouches not being able to explode with shrapnel, unlike the cans.

Those Mn based cells are about as safe as it gets.

Low performance LiFePO4 can be a little safer
.

 

[Jozzer]

Ironically, BMZ was the German battery producer who's factory burnt to the ground a few years back wasn't it?

Jozz

 

[dogman dan]

Any factory can blow up. You should see some of the flour or corn starch explosions. Amazing what corn starch carburated just right can do. Blow the roof of a building to the next block.

 

[marty]

Lets only talk about these Makita power tool battery packs.

I watched Liveforphysic's video. See torches, heat guns, alligator clips, and who knows what else? Has there ever been a battery fire with these Makita batteries in the real world?
Drop a power tool off a roof.
Drive a truck over a power tool or bicycle battery.
Accident when building a large DoctorBass battery from Makita cells.
Charger or human malfunctions while charging.
Battery fires only. Not electrical fires. That's why we use fuses.

[Edit 1/28/12 replace attached picture]

 

[Ratking]

Hello

I just wanted to make a Topic about this myself. The only difference is that I just made a makita cell burn
I don't know why it happened,
and I am a bit scared to use them in a big pack without learning how to take out the dangerous cells.
What happend is that I made a pack for my jet ski. It was made out of 3s12p and every battery was balanced before I used them. There was no big difference in cell voltage when I soldered them together and not a single cell become hot when I soldered. I used a 100w iron and used a sponge with cold water to cool the cell down fast.
The first cell catched fire under charging and started to crackle before a blue flame and gas poured out of the positive tab. I quickly separated the cell from the group with a plyer and managed to save the rest, but several other cells started to vent afterwards so I would not trust a used cell even if it where in perfect balance with the other cells unless a capacity and ballast check was made.

 

[Hillhater]

18650V: ( the most popular for ebikes)

How do you figure that ?
I would have said that the turnigy /Zippy pouches are the "most popular" ,..
...with possibly the 26650 cans being more popular than the 18650's ?

Edit..to correct op name

 

[marty]

18650V: ( the most popular for ebikes)

How do you figure that ?
I would have said that the turnigy /Zippy pouches are the "most popular" ,..
...with possibly the 26650 cans being more popular than the 18650's ?

I did not write that. I copy what Doctorbass wrote. Sorry if I did not use a "quote" box
Copy text from:
Konion Makita LiMn battery care and feeding by Doctorbass
Post by Doctorbass » Fri May 06, 2011 2:06 am
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27707

 

[Hillhater]

Ah, OK sorry marty..i see now how you were quoting DB. ( and corrected my post)
I also see that he was referring to the 18650 V being the most popular of the 2 18650 cells mentioned...
... not necessarily the most popular sell overall for ebikes.

 

[marty]

Getting ready to start charging and testing cells from used Makita power tool battery packs. Plan on working on the dining room table (The wife said it is OK :wink: ) Got a piece of James Hardie HardieBacker® 1/4" Board. Tested it with a torch. Cement board don't burn. Cut it the same size of the dining room table. Finished it with Coronado Aqua Plastic Waterborne Acrylic Urethane Clear 70-10 Gloss. Nice stuff left over from hardwood floor refinishing. Water base, it don't have that brain damage smell.

If something goes very wrong and I have a fire. How to put it out? Tossing batteries outside is not really a good option because we live on the second floor. Long way to run to the door.

A long time ago I learned the hard way. [Never put water on a grease fire] How do you put out a lithium battery fire?




Story time............
Marty and friends were about 10 years old. Parents not home "Lets make candles" Put wax in tin can. Put can on stove. Turn burner to high. Wax melts. Wax catches on fire. Small fire really not a problem. Put some water in a coffee cup. Pour water on fire. Now we have a BIG problem. Wax starts exploding and the whole kitchen somehow became coated with wax. Mom was not happy Marty spent days cleaning a coating of wax off of the walls, cabinets, ceiling and floor.

Better idea to put out a small wax / grease fire. COVER IT!

 

[neptronix]

If you are unsure of safety, see what UL certification for batteries involves.

But the most common testing methods, which will produce smoke, fire, or nothing are:

1) overcharge
2) overdischarge, then charge
3) puncture
4) current discharge spike
5) other things i can't think of..
6) overcharge, then puncture, then put a lighter up to any thing that oozes out of it ( AKA the Luke method )

So one thing you can do is buy a couple and see how they work in real life..

Pouches are great because the puffing is a warning that something has been going wrong with that cell. cylindrical cells are far less forgiving. I remember when the Macbook came out, the bottom of the laptop deforming was a great indicator that the lipo cells were ready to go, most likely giving the user a few days to. Then you had the Dells, which would just blow suddenly without warning. I think dells used cylindrical cells for a long time.

wimpy lifepo4 and NMC seem to be the safest again and again..

 

[marty]

My plan is to use every precaution to not make a fire. But if these 18650 Li-Ion cells do catch on fire? Should I dump sand on them? Should I pour water on them? Should I use a dry chemical fire extinguisher? Just run away and loudly tell everyone to leave the house?

Liveforphysics - How about some how to put out lithium battery fire videos.

 

[John in CR]

In processing used ones, literally hundreds of packs, I've seen a few that looked a bit scorched at one end, and some that apparently got hot and bubbled the green plastic wrapper. The scorched end ones appeared to be from a loose tab weld resulting in arcing. I've tried fast charging bad cells, and the most I've gotten is some hissing from some gas escaping and they got very hot, no actual flames but hot enough that I left it outside until the next day after it returned to 0V. The same kind of thing happeded trying to charge bad A123 cells, though I never heard any gas release and they seemed to stay hot for longer, though none of them ever looked scorched, at most a yellowing of the white paper wrapper. I've even thrown both into an open fire, which was also uneventful.

Maybe in some kind of large format pack enough of some kind of gas can build up and ignite, but nothing has happened with any of my packs. Mine are made with used cells though, so any defective cells got weeded out. That's one of the reasons I think used cells are actually better. The problem is not knowing how used they are, which has been hit or miss in my purchases of used packs.

I did a few searches and the most I came up with was some speculation that a Makita charger may have caused a fire, but no flaming packs.