Looking for Upgrade advice!

[cayars]

Hello guys!

I almost pulled the trigger on part of an upgrade earlier today but had second thoughts. I decided to solicit help from you guys first. A Bit of brief history.
I currently have an X-Treme Scooters X-CURSION Folding Electric Mountain E-Bike in Silver. Same bike in this link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-2015-X-Treme-X-Cursion-Folding-Electric-Bike-Replaces-XB-310LI-Lithium-Batt-/171730628440
I have a 2nd "spare" battery. So essentially I have qty 2 24V 8AH batteries.

I "lost" my license for a while so this ebike is my primary source of transportation. I have flexible work hours and work about half the time from home. The office is 50 miles or so from my house but this has no bearing on the bike. I get a ride to work once a week (take my bike) and stay 2 or 3 nights. I stay at a local hotel a few miles from the office. I use the bike to commute back and forth from the office to the hotel. I then get picked up later in the week. Having the "folding bike" is essential as it allows for easy transportation. I occasionally use light rail transportation and being able to fold up the bike again is nice in this respect.

My problem is that I work in a suburban area of Philadelphia (in NJ). From work to the hotel is a couple 4+ lane roads with no sidewalks for part of the trip. Not really a fun place to ride a bike! I know this is only going to feel/get worse as winter rolls around as it will be dark and cold after work. The bike "as is" just feels to slow and seems dangerous because of this. If I had another 10 to 15 MPH on "top" I'd feel a lot safer. I could essential ride with traffic instead of getting passed by every car (some to close for comfort). From the office to the hotel is about 3 to 4 miles I'd say.

I've got saddle bags on the bike at present which I transport my clothes and stuff (ie poncho, charger, spare battery) and wear a computer bag on my back.

So getting back to the original point of the message. Earlier I was about to pull the trigger on this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/48V1500W-electric-bicycle-e-bike-conversion-kit-electric-motorcycle-kit-LCD/261936192898?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32237%26meid%3Dd44403ff44524a6d864f5e604a8149ef%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261960254308&rt=nc which is 48V1500W electric bicycle e bike conversion kit (or something similar). I was thinking of stripping my Xcursion down and moving the parts to another bike and putting this kit on my Xcursion folding bike.
EDIT: Another kit I was looking at is this one: http://www.fastusaebikes.com/48v-1500w-rear-26-single-or-6-speed-electric-bicycle-motor-kit-for-e-bike,name,100670,auction_id,auction_details

I was thinking as a stop got of maybe using the 2 batteries I presently have as a 48V 8AH back (I know it's not much) or putting together a cheap LIPO pack to get started. I fly RC planes and helis including some big ones. I have some high end charging equipment already and know all the dangers of LIPO vs others. This would only be a "stop gap" measure for a couple of paychecks before I'd want to build/buy a better battery pack.

So I'm going to be using this bike for a while in different seasons of the year. I'm fully aware of the federal watt limit but I'm not worried about that. I doubt I'm going to see a cop pull out a watt meter.

So I'm looking for any advice any of you might be able to give me. If I end up replacing all the electronics then I'll move what's currently on my bike to another and then I'll have a "guest" ebike (which I have the need for).

Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with and can suggest.

 

[dogman dan]

Spend what you have to, on a good strong battery that's safe to charge. Like an Em3ev pack.

Though RC lipo would power up that kit real nice, I shudder to think about a lipo fire in a hotel. You fly that stuff, so you should know how easy it can be to have a problem with those cheaply made cells. You need a plug in and go to bed battery.

But I understand, if you have the packs in hand, using them temporarily will be reasonable. But charging in the hotel room, I just can't see that. Got a balcony at the motel? Possible to charge at work? Awake and prepared to chuck the whole flaming pile of shit out the door?

I know it's a small possibility burning down the hotel. But the chance of it has to be zero. You'd be lawyered up for life if you burn down the hotel. Renting a car is cheap by comparison. So live with the slower bike till you get your battery.

Other wise, looks like a decent plan. The bike won't be light anymore with a big motor and battery, but it sure will be nicer on a busy road to go a bit faster.

 

[MadRhino]

I don't like the idea to build much faster with a folder. Doesn't mean it is not feasable, but I'd first go riding downhill at the targeted speed and weight, to feel the bike's handling, cornering and braking. IMO, it will need some upgrades (and maye some mods) to make a good ride at much higher speed.

 

[cayars]

dogman dan, I agree on the battery. The only reason I brought up LIPO was for "testing" since I already have most of what I'd need. I'm all to familiar with LIPO fires. I've seen many go up in flames in crashes and when charging. My thoughts on LIPO were nothing more than short term use if at all.

MadRhino, I hear what you are saying. Unfortunately I don't have much choice. Around here in New Jersey it's mostly all flat land. No hills big enough to really get a feel for speed. The best I've been able to do is get up to 30-32 MPH (gps) a couple of times. Nothing that felt uneasy about the bike to me at those speeds.

Thus far on the commute from work to hotel I've had 1 really close call with a car. It was close enough that it knocked my mirror off. I've gotten one flat (back tire) due to having to hug the side of the road where "junk" collects. To me it would just seem safer to go from 15-18MPH to 30-35MPHish and be able to stay in the middle of the road and avoid these issues. This is city traffic so there are traffic lights and whatnot. Part of the issue is just not having enough acceleration also.

So what I'm looking for is the "proper" power plant to upgrade to. Even if the "kit" has a 70KPH rating does not mean I'd use it like this. You can have a car that goes 150MPH but you probably typically only drive it 50 to 60 MPH but do take advantage of motor on occasion for quick acceleration or for passing someone.

I technically do not have a budget and could order up what ever I need if it's the right/correct equipment. With that said, I of course don't want to pay a premium if I don't need to. Nor am I trying to build the world's fastest bike. You guys know my objectives.

It is a folding bike which makes the placement of batteries a bit more difficult (could go on the rack). So let me refocus this a bit.
Do I want/need a 1500 watt kit? Will 1000 watt work? Should I consider a 3K kit or similar?

Should I be considering 48V pack, 60V or 72V? etc...
Ideally the (if hub) the rim will keep the 7 gears I presently have along with disc brakes.

As previously mentioned I presently have 2 of these: http://www.farbike.com/xb-310-24v-lithium-lifepo4-battery/
I would assume I could disconnect both and charge separately with the included charger I already have. (or pick up another charger and charge both at same time). I should then be able to connect both together for a 48volt 8ah pack.

Correct me on my math if incorrect
Assumptions (worst case): Want to travel at 35MPH for whole trip (reality will be about 1 mile in the worst of traffic) at 3 miles.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55283&sid=6bcb389baea39ae00ecb7a2398ecef69#p824151 shows that for 35MPH it would take 1532watts.
1532w/35MPH = 44 watts per mile (rounded up).
Two packs mentioned above would give me 48Volt 8AH or 384 watt hours (48*8). Assuming I want to keep 30% charge in batters that leaves me 384w*0.7=268 usable watt hours
268 watt hours / 44 watts per mile = 6 miles
This should work for me until I purchase a nice large pack and give me "room to spare" for the commute.
(correct me if I'm wrong).

So what suggestions if any do you guys have for me?

 

[MadRhino]

To ride the car lanes safely, you need at least 3000w and preferably more. One thing I know about power is that it is highly addictive, you probably won't shift the gears anymore. Sooner or later, you will use the power and speed of your bike all the time, so better think now about braking distance, cornering, balance and tires.

 

[cayars]

I was editing my message when you responded. I added some math to make sure I "get it" correctly.
Obviously this "pack" wouldn't work for a 3KW motor. But is my understanding correct from what you can see?

3000w really? I guess it's no surprise.

I'm fully ready to make other adjustments to the bike as needed. Better brakes are already planned as well as tire replacements. These are easier to do compared to selecting the proper power plant.

Out of curiosity, for 3KW what kit and battery would you use?

 

[wesnewell]

No, it doesn't take 3000W to go 35mph. Actually about half that. A 48V 1000W kit run on 15s lipo will get you ~35mph on level ground and be able to run at that speed for about 20 miles before overheating even with some short hills. I run my 1000W motor on 24s llipo with a 72V 40A controller and it's over 4 years old now. It will top out over 40 mph on level ground and I've had it up to 61.4mph going DH.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70169

 

[MadRhino]

No, it doesn't take 3000W to go 35mph. Actually about half that. A 48V 1000W kit run on 15s lipo will get you ~35mph on level ground and be able to run at that speed for about 20 miles before overheating even with some short hills. I run my 1000W motor on 24s llipo with a 72V 40A controller and it's over 4 years old now. It will top out over 40 mph on level ground and I've had it up to 61.4mph going DH.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70169

I said : To ride the car lanes safely

If you ride 35 with cars aroud you, you need not only good braking distance but also some fair acceleration. A bike that you ride like a motorcycle in trafic, is not safe if it is not meeting those basic requirements. We all know that you can build a 60 Mph bike for the price of a good set of brakes and we appreciate that, but it doesn't mean we consider this safe to recommend.

 

[motomech]

NJ's "moped"law;

A motorized bicycle (moped) is defined by law as a pedal bicycle with a helper motor, electric or gas-powered, capable of a maximum speed of no more than 25 miles per hour on a flat surface. A moped has a maximum displacement of less than 50 cubic centimeters (no more than 1.5 brake horsepower).

How to get a moped license
You must be at least 15 years old
Visit an MVC Agency to complete an application for a moped permit.
Pass the 6 point -ID requirements
Pay $5 examination permit fee
Pass the knowledge and vision tests to validate your permit. Study by reading the Driver Manual, Motorcycle Manual and Moped Manual
You must practice with a permit for at least 20 days before being eligible to take the road test
If you pass the road test, take your permit, ride slip and score sheet to an MVC Agency to receive your license and pay the $6 license fee

Pretty straight-forward, you will need a permit, but the good news is, it is not dependent on having a driver's license first.

Unlike a lot of States where the laws are rather confusing, I would think a trooper would know what the law is and if he/she sees you going 30 mph and above without a plate, you would be likely to be pulled over.
I think you might want to consider keeping the speed under 27 mph or so.

If it were me, I would probably go with the cheapest of the proven formulas and build two of the the Wally World mountain bike/48V Yescom direct drive motor kits and leave one at the motel.
they will do 27 mph with a "plug and play" battery.

 

[dogman dan]

Stay at that hotel a lot? Possible to buy a small motorcycle and keep it there? Just tossing that out there.

 

[cayars]

Guess you guys didn't read what I wrote.
"Lost my license" in 2nd paragraph. That would include all forms on NJ license including a moped license.

I already have the Excursion and I'm not considering any other frame as I must keep it folding in order to transport it work. I get dropped off and picked up by another person. This is also a very strong frame by all accounts and part of the reason this was chosen to start with.

At present the XCursion is "street legal" but of course any mods "could" put me over the limit of what is or is not required to fall into the moped classification. I'm more than confident that unless I go crazy I'll stay under the radar screen as it looks like a bicycle and doesn't look anything like a conventional moped. I'm also not going to be riding it like a crazy person drawing attention. I just want to be able to ride with traffic (even peddling) for a mile or so part of the trip to stay with traffic instead of getting passed by which isn't safe for me on this stretch of roadway.

Don't really want to be "snippy" when I'm asking for help and all but could we stay focused on what I'm specifically asking help with which is the power train? Or put another way the best kit to use as an update to get in the 30 MPH range.

Thanks

 

[motomech]

Guess you guys didn't read what I wrote.
"Lost my license" in 2nd paragraph. That would include all forms on NJ license including a moped license.

I already have the Excursion and I'm not considering any other frame as I must keep it folding in order to transport it work. I get dropped off and picked up by another person. This is also a very strong frame by all accounts and part of the reason this was chosen to start with.

At present the XCursion is "street legal" but of course any mods "could" put me over the limit of what is or is not required to fall into the moped classification. I'm more than confident that unless I go crazy I'll stay under the radar screen as it looks like a bicycle and doesn't look anything like a conventional moped. I'm also not going to be riding it like a crazy person drawing attention. I just want to be able to ride with traffic (even peddling) for a mile or so part of the trip to stay with traffic instead of getting passed by which isn't safe for me on this stretch of roadway.

Don't really want to be "snippy" when I'm asking for help and all but could we stay focused on what I'm specifically asking help with which is the power train? Or put another way the best kit to use as an update to get in the 30 MPH range.

Thanks

Guess you guys didn't read what I wrote.
"Lost my license" in 2nd paragraph. That would include all forms on NJ license including a moped license.

Mr. Snippy,
And I guess you can't read. It doesn't say you have to have a driver's permit to get a moped permit.
But it does say a bicycle with ANY motor is a moped and the operator has to have a permit.
Maybe if you payed more attention to motor vehicule regulations, you wouldn't be in your current situation.

 

[wesnewell]

If all you want is 30mph, you might get by with just upping the voltage, although you may need to get a new controller for that. Specs say it has a 300W motor which I assume is a geared brushless motor. Should get ~30mph with a 48V pack.

 

[cayars]

motomech,

The permit is just a piece of paper saying you have passed a vision and paper/computer test and know the laws of NJ for driving. It gives you the right to practice driving from dusk to dawn in order to pass your road test.. You must have a permit for at least 20 days before you can take your moped license road test. You can not apply for a permit (for any type vehicle) with a suspended license (me). I've had a moped license when I was 15 (many many years ago). At present my motorcycle, auto, boat, bus and commercial driving privs are suspended. No way around this in NJ.

Hence a semi-suped up bicycle which would NOT require a license (at least by first appearance). Technically, up to 750 watts and 20MPH unassisted. There is no ordinance federal or state that specifies how fast you can go assisted other than the arguable 750 watt motor clause which doesn't specify input or output watts. It's a "gray area" at best that under present NJ law would be extremely hard to enforce if one is peddling (assisted mode).

Ironically, this is what I do for a living (work with law firms/courts in PA/NJ on traffic violations). I'd be happy to elaborate more in PM about this but not in a public forum. But needless to say this idea (moped) is out.

Wesnewelll,
Yea, I thought about that. I've tried this bike on 36Volt with Lipos and the speed controller handles it but I don't think it would take 48v (for long). I drove it about 5 miles on 36V and it added a couple of MPH but not enough. Motor was much hotter than normal too. I don't think this 300 watt motor would last a long time with 48v at the speed I'm shooting for and probably wouldn't give me the speed I was looking for. Guessing but I think with a controller change and with 48V I'd be lucky to do 25MPH for short bursts before letting off to let it cool down.

I'm contemplating picking up a mxus 3KW motor kit and spraying 750 watt on the side of it. I just doubt 48 volts would be enough for it. I could of course build/buy a better higher volt pack (ion) but that will double/triple costs. A 1500 watt motor would probably have the grunt needed to meet my needs but I haven't found a kit I really like. It's going to be a challenge to "mount" the batteries on this bike unless I just put them on the rack.

Thoughts?

 

[wesnewell]

A MXUS 3000W would be overkill for what you want. I've got one and rarely ride it. Any of the 48V 1000W kits will work fine, but you might want to consider physical smaller sized geared motor that won't change the appearance of the bike much. But whatever choice you make, you'll need to move to 48V.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=48v%201000w%20rear&LH_PrefLoc=1&rt=nc&LH_FS=1&_trksid=p2045573.m1684