Mcfizzlestag's GT Avalanche Elite BBSHD Build

[mcfizzlestag]

Originally Titled: Which kit.. Stealth Geared hubs

hello!

So i live in the suburbs of the Vancouver region, so its very hilly, and i unfortunately decided for a direct drive magic pie edge kit for my first ebike build. Don't get me wrong, i love it and it still works great for the money i put into it, but burning 7 AH on one hill makes me second guess my choice. Being 300 lbs does not help matters.

My commute to work is 28 km, but i like the option to throw my bike on the bus on really crummy days or when my knees have had it for the week. Unfortunately the local bus provider has deemed e-bikes unsafe for bike racks due to drivers "not being able to tell the weight of the bike." I built my first kit to be under 50 lbs and i lift it on the racks with ease, so most drivers don't even bother saying anything, the ones that do have an issue, i tell them i understand and don't take the bad policy out on them I digress.

So here's what i want to go for, a kit that is the same diameter of a 7/8 sp cassette/freewheel.

So far i've found 3 kits that peaked my interest

Xiongda 2 speed hub
q128c/h
g310

currently i have the g310 as the front runner, but i am concerned about overheating, plugging my stats in the sim, 52V, 150 kg and 9% grade at my commutes worst point, it shows overload in 5 minutes, so i may be melting my gears when im 10 minutes into my climb :/ Not sure if filling it with ATF will help mitigate this. With the other two motors, im worried about replacement parts. Im open to any suggestions. I will be building the next bike around what kit i settle for.

 

[amberwolf]

Sounds like you might be better off with a middrive, so you can shift gears for that hill (and others like it), and leave the motor in it's efficient speed while the bike goes slow up the hill.


A geared hub in the wheel, pushed the same way a DD hub is in the same situation, is more likely to overheat than the DD hub, and may not use any less battery to do the same work.

Filling it with oil of some type may help the heat, but it's going to leak oil whenever the bike is tilted far enough, or laid on it's side (or falls over), and may weep oil out the axle wires from surface tension creep even if it's always uprigth and the oil is nowhere near axle-level. (had this with a small Fusin geared hub, even after I finally got it sealed up; gave up on the idea after it kept gettng on the braking surfaces)



If you don't want to buy a middrive, you could move the hub you already have into the frame and have it drive the pedal drivetrain; this has been done with a number of motors over the years. There's a number of threads, but the old Hubmotor Middrive Media Group thread probably has the most in one place.

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, though your idea is sound, its still going to be taxing on the motor at your weight. That's the reason your current motor eats power going up the hill. The geared motor will too.

But a mid drive would allow you to climb on 200w if you use the lowest gears. Climbing slow, like sub 5 mph, is possible with the mid drive, so you can add your 100w to the power, cutting the total used by 1/3 right off the bat. Plus the mid drive will run slow much more efficient, saving you more power.

You need a mid drive for sure.


Dorks on the bus will still hassle you, but they will catch on that your bike is electric even with the small motor hid. Hard to hid that battery, or even the other stuff he's staring at from 2 feet away as he drives. I don't think you can stealth enough to never get hassled.


And anyway, with the mid drive, you might find a lot less need to do the bus thing.

 

[wineboyrider]

Mid drive foldable bicycle

 

[wturber]

Mid drive foldable bicycle

With a 20" wheel, a hub motor foldable will climb hills better than the same motor on a 26". And if you don't mind the unconventional, put a 20" hub wheel on your existing bike.

 

[markz]

So you have had bus drivers tell you that you can not put the bike on the rack.
That sucks. I've never had an issue. Try to hide the motor the best you can, and put the battery in a triangle bag, or pannier bag. Most drivers would never have a clue. But you cant hide a mid drive very well can you.

 

[wineboyrider]

So you have had bus drivers tell you that you can not put the bike on the rack.
That sucks. I've never had an issue. Try to hide the motor the best you can, and put the battery in a triangle bag, or pannier bag. Most drivers would never have a clue. But you cant hide a mid drive very well can you.

I disagree the motor on BBS02 is fairly discreet on some bicycles.

 

[markz]

So you have had bus drivers tell you that you can not put the bike on the rack.
That sucks. I've never had an issue. Try to hide the motor the best you can, and put the battery in a triangle bag, or pannier bag. Most drivers would never have a clue. But you cant hide a mid drive very well can you.

I disagree the motor on BBS02 is fairly discreet on some bicycles.

Then go with that mid drive, I heard good things about them. Bus drivers are usually clueless. It would be the very odd driver that would be so stickler for rules and realize what you have.

 

[wturber]

Check with the bus authority and see if there is a weight limit or rule about ebikes. Just cuz a bus driver sez something is so doesn't make it sew. ;^)

 

[wineboyrider]

My mid drive bicycle is quite a bit lighter to pick up than my hub bicycles

 

[zro-1]

As someone who owns both a full-suspension MTB with a mid drive and a single-speed track bike with a small geared hub motor, I also vote going with the mid drive approach. Here's why: You can get the same performance at lower total wattage with a mid drive because you have the benefit of running through gears. As a result, since you have lower system wattage, you can use a smaller battery pack that will be easier to hide. the bike will also be lighter. Additionally, if you start with a road frame without a suspension, your total bike weight will be lower. A flat-bar gravel bike with big tires would give decent shock absorption for road use.

Looking at pictures, mid drives seem like they stick out like sore thumbs, but in real-world use, they tend to blend in and go unnoticed by the vast majority. They main thing with a stealthy build is don't strap a ton of stuff on your bike. Keep it clean and make sure everything is as tucked away as possible.

 

[wturber]

As someone who owns both a full-suspension MTB with a mid drive and a single-speed track bike with a small geared hub motor, I also vote going with the mid drive approach. Here's why: You can get the same performance at lower total wattage with a mid drive because you have the benefit of running through gears. As a result, since you have lower system wattage, you can use a smaller battery pack that will be easier to hide. the bike will also be lighter. Additionally, if you start with a road frame without a suspension, your total bike weight will be lower. A flat-bar gravel bike with big tires would give decent shock absorption for road use.

Looking at pictures, mid drives seem like they stick out like sore thumbs, but in real-world use, they tend to blend in and go unnoticed by the vast majority. They main thing with a stealthy build is don't strap a ton of stuff on your bike. Keep it clean and make sure everything is as tucked away as possible.

IMO, the very hilly terrain and 300 lbs argue strongly for the mid drive. I'm skeptical that it will improve battery performance by much though.

A clean tucked away install is one way to go stealth. Another is to hang a lot of standard bike stuff on the bike (racks, panniers, baskets, water bottles, etc so that the electric stuff gets lost in the "mess." I remember early on showing my early e-bike build to a friend. They listened to my spiel about the bike and then asked me quite straight-faced, "but where is the battery?" I had 7 hoverboard packs shoved into an old camera bag that was bungee cord strapped to my rack. It was big and obvious, but was apparently invisible to him because it looked like the standard stuff that people often strap to their racks. I think hubs not much larger than disc rotors and cogs also tend to "disappear."

 

[zro-1]

IMO, the very hilly terrain and 300 lbs argue strongly for the mid drive. I'm skeptical that it will improve battery performance by much though.

I generally have to agree with you there with the ride consideration.

A clean tucked away install is one way to go stealth. Another is to hang a lot of standard bike stuff on the bike (racks, panniers, baskets, water bottles, etc so that the electric stuff gets lost in the "mess."

LOL That would do it too, though I recommended a clean, tucked away build in the context of trying to keep total weight under the 50 pound(?) limit for the bus. Adding all that stuff on top of the ebike parts will make for a very heavy bike.

 

[mcfizzlestag]

With winter approaching and my current MP edge build is dealing various component issues and wear, i have decided to scrap the build in the coming months. After a couple weeks of scouring craigslist being disappointed by shady responses or finding flagged serial numbers, i decided to take advantage to the end of season sales all around town. I purchased a 2018 GT Avalanche Elite online to start this new build off.

I might as well turn this thread into a build thread now, so i've attatched the catalog photo to act as a before


Some quick specs that matter:
11-40 10sp cassette with a Shimano Deore Shadow RD-M6000GS derailleur
29" wheels (would have prefered 650b, but they were out of stock, and can be changed down the road)
Shimano M315 hydraulic disc brakes

Since i last posted, my wife told me my face was getting too fat and put me on a diet (wait im sorry, "lifestyle change"), so i'm about 30lbs lighter and getting sexier by the day, so i feel im right in the BBSO2 range, but i still worry about temp, so i may end up going BBSHD. My concern with the BBSHD is whether i can run it at 20 amps (or lower if possible). My battery pack is a 14s3p GA cell, although specced at 50amp continious, i keep it in a pannier and it gets pretty hot at 20 amps continuous. I commute mainly, so i'm not interested in getting the extra power, i just want the reliability. I've scoured plenty of topics and people seem to go up, not down in current. If anyone has gone this route, please pipe up if there has been any disadvantages. The other advantage to going with the HD is being able to up the current to specs if i ever decide to use the Coquitlam trail system that is next door to my house.

I will be purchasing through em3ev and going for the gear cut off and likely the 42T bling ring

 

[markz]

With winter approaching

Yes winter is approaching too soon IMO.
I had days where the snow was just too deep in the fields and the roads were hairy and the pathways were hardened footsteps. A fat bike is in order for that kind of riding, yes I do have a good frame, but some welding is required to increase wheel base for the 3" to fit.

 

[mcfizzlestag]

Guess im a bit lucky here where the winters are relatively mild in vancouver. The roads are generally fine, and i stick to side streets. Last year i used studded tires, but they ended up wearing through the inner lining of the tire within 3 months and popped 5 tubes in 2 weeks. My biggest issue is when i go over a bridge, the bike path is never cleared and quickly becomes iced over road bike ruts. I'm hoping the bikes tires at 2.25" will be enough to not be as punished going over the ruts.

 

[mcfizzlestag]

The Parts are in and my wife is angry!

Here's a list of what I have added to the bike over the last couple weeks...

• Topeak super tourist uni dx pannier rack (chainreaction)
• Cane Creek Thudbuster Quadra LT Seatpost (chainreaction)
• Planet bike cascadia II 29er full fenders (MEC)
• BV Rear side Kickstand (Amazon)
• BBSHD (em3ev)
• 42t Lekkie bling ring (em3ev)
• 160mm buzz bar(em3ev)
• Hydraulic m355 disc brakes w/ electronic cut-offs built in (em3ev)
• EggRider Display (em3ev)
• Type 2 Thumb Throttle (em3ev)

Here is a look at the build where its currently at, its fully functional, just needs some QoL changes.
View attachment 5

An up close shot of the Drive side. With the Bling ring, the chainline came out pretty well with no spacers needed. High only when i'm on the 40t is the chain line a bit out, but i rarely will be in that gear. I was worried the BBSHD case would torque against the chainstay but it cleared it fine until the last bit of cinching on the locknut.


My lockring tool proved rather useless for this install, i ended up using a 12" pipe wrench to set the lockring. Was a bit tight to fit it in, but managed to get it. I thought the kit didn't have the spacers for a 73mm BB, but after making my own, i found them...


Heres an up-close of the motor, i'm going to need to make a new label for it that says 500W
View attachment 1

Here's the overall view of the handlebar, i was hoping to get away from the wire bundle under the stem, but its not worth snipping wires.


And of course the eggrider display
View attachment 4

Putting this together i had a few issues.

1. Couldn't find insulated pipe clamps as big as my shocks locally, or without abhorrent shipping costs for 2 of them, so the front fender is held on with a tie wraps until i do.

2. Thudbuster LT supports 250lbs, but only gives inserts up to 225lbs, so i had to order a $6 insert with $25 shipping...

3. The Topeak rack came with a ton of hardware, but the two support rails were an inch too short to reach my bikes mounting point, so i repurposed one of the many spare reflector mounts i had. Also seems i unnecessarily ordered the disc model, when the brakes are inset enough to clear a normal rack support.

4. The brakes from em3ev!

• They were a headache and a half. I expected just the levers, so was pleasantly surprised to see new calipers, i had a slightly lesser quality hydraulic set already. So i uninstall my brakes, install the rear new one, and the brake line is a few inches too short, should have gone with enduro length. Luckily i purchased a hydraulic bleed kit thinking i had to use it, so i swapped out brake lines.
• The front brake, after installing it, i noticed the piston on one side was stuck. When you fully press on the brake with a bleed block in it, a small bit of hydraulic oil bubbles out. Unfortunately since i'm impatient and want to use my bike now, rather than deal with warranty returns, i swapped out the caliper with a shotty piston with the lesser model i had installed already. Just had to bleed another brake... Thankfully i was able to salvage the oil from my old brakes (barely used) to complete the bleed job, since the new oil i ordered had yet to arrive
• This is more of an observation, My Bike manufacturer (GT) and em3ev's source don't use the legit shimano hydraulic mineral oil, was surprised because i figured the sets come pre-filled. Doesn't really matter in the end.
• Brakes again... After everything is put together, i noticed the brakelines are too long now, can't win... Unfortunately i dropped my syringe of all the mineral oil i had left, and so i dont want to run the risk of air in the lines yet. This will be fixed down the road.

5. Battery Connector. I thought em3ev uses an xt90 connector on the motor, so wasnt happy to find bullet connectors on the battery, But reading further its when you buy a battery with the motor you get the connectors. The battery leads are also too short. I had to make a temporary extension. So now i go Bullet to XT60 with its bullet connectors rubber taped up. Then to a Wattmeter that changes the xt60 to xt90.

6. Eggrider app. I was excited to finally head outside and give it a whirl, but i wanted to verify the settings, so i go to connect to the app, and apparently you need to activate it. This i have no problem with, but it should have been automated. After waiting a few hours, Eggrider eventually ask me for an order number, which surprised me since its from a third party vendor. The wait time was 5 hours, but what if their staff go on vacation, or its the weekend.

7. Sluggish performance! This was due to me not properly writing to the controller after swapping around settings, i moved too far away and the Egg rider app sometimes needs to be disconnected then reconnected. Thankfully the app kept my settings so all i had to do was resubmit.

Overall I am extremely pleased with the kit. The display is awesome, although i do wish they swapped short press Mode with Longpress, that way if you accidentally press M instead of Up, you dont switch to offroad. I programmed in Karl's recommendation, but turned down the max amps to 20A. The only difference between the Modes is 10km/h more. The bike weighs in at 49.5 lbs, so its under the 55lb bike rack limit

A big shout out to EM3EV! They did a very good job packaging, had a very speedy shipment, and duties werent astronomical. Right after purchase they email you the documentation so you can read ahead of time. So despite the brakes, i am still happy with them

 

[MadRhino]

In BC, mineral brake oil, Shimano or Tektro or Magura (any will do), should be available at a local bike shop since there are so many MTB riders on the west coast. Alternatively, you can use any hydraulic grade mineral oil of the same weight (auto parts, aero clubs airports). Don’t use mineral oil from the pharmacy, it is too heavy for this purpose.

You can ‘rubberize’ pipe clamps with self fusing silicon tape (Amazon, or local hardware stores). Yet, 2 tie wraps are not bad at all for mud guard mount.

Look like your build was not that hard to do after all. Wish you good rides.

 

[mcfizzlestag]

The build was indeed fairly easy, just a bit of frustration redoing the brakes. I had a good solid week of commuting (i work 6 on/3 off), with detours to see what the motor can push at 20 amps. I did give a try upping the amps for the off road profile to 25, but i was not comfortable with how hot the battery gets for that current, despite what Luna says it can handle. I work in industrial electrical maintenance, i see what heat does to electronics almost daily, and that battery was almost too hot to pick up despite being 5A below "rated" continuous current.

Low voltage cut off has reared its head at me a couple times a bit sooner than expected thanks to voltage drop. This was due to me being 30km into a commute on a 14s3p GA cell and hugging the throttle too much. Thankfully i only had 2 km of mostly flat terrain left, so i restarted the controller and really dialed down the PAS. My old kit was not PAS, so its taking a bit for me to get used to not needing to hold the throttle down.

I personally feel 25amps would be a nice sweet spot for what i want to throw at this kit, so likely will need to look into buying a 14s4p or 14s5p battery, when the wife cools down from all these purchases i made.

Although not an apple to apples comparison, i'd say i'm enjoying a further range, the efficiency of the mid drive for Suburban Vancouver really outshines the Magic Pie Edge i had previously. The bikes weigh the same, but the middrive has knobby tires where the hub kit had commuters, so now that i've switched to a more hybrid tire (schwabe hurricanes) i'll likely see a further increase in range.

I got to deal with my first instance of the mid drive lock-ring loosening, i was sure i got it tight enough. Luckily i had another chunk of conveyor belt rubber to space the motor off my wires, and went to town with a pipe wrench. While you dont get much room to move the wrench, you cant beat the torque you get when compared to a bicycle lockring wrench. Seems to be holding for now.

 

[cafu02]

Hi
Hi there
Are you still using your BBSHD setup with the GT for your daily commute?
I have a 2018 GT Comp 29er that i'm looking to convert as a daily rider to work which is about45km return trip. Planning to go with the BBS02 and a 48v/ 13 Mah batter and the 42T Bling Ring.

Has there been any issue with your setup?
How is it working out for you?
Thanks in advance

 

[mcfizzlestag]

I have called it quits on the 14s3p GA cell Luna Battery.

• Here is my experience with my soft pack luna battery.
• Tried Running at 25A that luna advertises being rated continious, can't touch the battery for more than a quick tap when done commute. Had to dial back amps to 20A, which still gets too hot for my liking.
• Use the battery 6 out of every 9 days, charge at home to 80% (around 60% after trip) charge at work to 100% (25-35%
• After 10 months It will charge to 58.6V max, then it drops to 57.8V within an hour after charge cycle ends. after riding about 10 minutes, i end up at 60-65% on mostly flat terrain with one bridge crossing.
• If i charge it, it will stop charging at 52V, until i power cycle the charger a couple times, then it will continue.
• Their 300W charger....Its advertised as being awesome, and maybe thats true if you never move it. However bringing it on the commute has taken its toll. The 120V power cord broke open at its strain relief, imo its the wrong type of strain relief to use on a portable device. I stripped back the wire a bit and crimped the broken hot wire inside the charger. I tie wrapped the cord with a slight loop to the venting holes to reduce the strain on the cheap cable. Next issue was the vibration from the road has set the charger out of calibration twice. I tweaked the trim pots back to the intended parameters.
• They included a little display with leads coming out of the pack, i would have rather this not be included as the wiring was very flimsy and broke off causing a dead short.

So while the cells in the pack may be awesome Panasonic GA cells, it was misleading claiming the data specs as a real world application. While i know the seller has a controversial history here, Its a bit buried on the google, there is so much higher seeded search results with positive reviews. So i unfortunately never bothered researching as extensively as i should have. Anyways i digress...

The new battery has arrived!



I chose em3ev because they are willing to sell their packs with realistic specs listed. I went with 14s5p pack with 33g cells. I want long term use and these guys seem to fill that role. I also required it to fit in my topeak pannier bag and the listed dimensions showed it to fit. Unfortunately those dimensions did not take into account the connectors for the wires, so it took a bit of effort to get the battery in the pannier, to the point i wont be removing it when charging. If cellman reads this, please consider giving an option for the hard case batteries to have right angle strain relief connectors.

Em3ev lists the pack at 23A continious whereas the datasheet for the cells would put a 33g-5P pack at 32A so they derated to help prolong battery life. Just the leads alone are much better done than my previous battery. It is refreshing to see a seller more intent on providing quality products at fair prices without all the marketing hype or need to bring down other vendors to justify themselves.

I am liking the bluetooth BMS but i do wish the app was more streamlined. Features i would like would be auto login, shouldnt need to wait 30 seconds to scan for devices every time you open the app. Would also love to see the ability to change the idle shut off timer as well as the ability to use the app to change charge profiles (ie 80%-90%-100%)

As for how the bike it treating me, im still riding to and from work no matter the weather. The wheels were never trued properly and i started to see the effects of it through a couple broken spokes. Ordered a handful of new spokes from a place in Victoria, BC then i made a truing stand at work with some scrap server rack UPS mounts Cant believe the difference in how the bike feels to ride. Unfortunately i somehow bent up the rear derailleur and while trying to re-tune the shifting (with throttle use) the chain fell off and wrapped almost twice around the crank and completely bent up the derailleur hanger aswell :/ So i went out and bought a new chain, a rd-m786-gs derailleur and a new 11-36T cassette since my old one was out of spec. I could have sourced another rd-m6000-sgs but i found i didn't even need the 40t ring, in fact i'd call it excessive. I cant even use it without power as i end up getting very wobbly going uphill so slow The new rd-m786-gs has a lot more chain tension which i like Couldnt find a LBS that had the derailleur hanger in stock, so i manually bent it back in alignment by eye.

I have had a few PMs from people looking to do near identical set ups to mine, so rather than repeat myself even more, i'll talk a bit more about the eggrider. Im still loving the display but i have had to do a warranty replacement which i went directly through the manufacturer vs em3ev. Symptoms were swinging voltages, buttons acting like they were held down, Constantly changing PAS level. THe manufacturer suggested water ingress at first and i thought it was firmware update issues, ends up they were right when several weeks later i saw the moisture in the display. I follow their facebook group and have not seen this issue appear aside from me. I have ridden through several rain storms aswell as many days in freezing wet weather, so it deftinately gets abused My biggest recommendation if you go with the egg rider is do not crank it on too tight, leave it able to turn on your handle bar with a bit of pressure since its weakpoint is its plastic mounting clamp and people have reported snapping it.