Minico Trail Jet Electric Conversion

ichi

1 µW
Joined
Sep 18, 2023
Messages
4
Location
Minnesota
Hey there been a lurker on/off here but now I have a project that I actually want to start doing.

I recently just inherited a late 1960’s to early 1970’s Minico Trail Jet mini-bike with 14” wheels and a blown disassembled motor which is a mess so I figure why not make this my ev project. I have battery building experience with rc planes and drones and plan to build a custom 20s li-ion battery for this project. I also want to stay away from brushed DC motors. Attached are a couple of pics of what I have to work with.

So now questions:
- Is there any recommended ways/kits to go about this?

- Is my 20s battery plan(basically a 72v system) on the right track?

- When it comes to BLDC(brushless DC) vs PMAC(permanent magnet AC) motors from what I read they are the same thing just have a different wavelength for controlling the motor so then does that come down to just different controllers for each?

- So besides battery with bms, drive train wise is it just a motor and controller with a throttle right and for regen that’s also handled by the controller?

Thanks looking forward to the replies.
 

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What do you want the system to do for you, under what riding conditions / terrain / wind / etc? How quick does it need to acelerate? How fast does it have to go? For how long/far? With how much total weight? Etc.

It takes a certain amount of power to do a certain job, so defining the job will let you guesstimate the power needed, and thus make sure you have enough.

Also lets you figure out if a simple hubmotor will do the job, or if you would be better off with a middrive, and what gearing to use to the wheel.

If you want regen (for extra braking, or energy recovery?), a hubmotor is simpler to use for that (putting regen thru a chain/belt/etc to a mid motor puts extra stress on the drive components and requires specific tensioning or mechanisms to ensure it in both directions).

So..:

So now questions:
- Is there any recommended ways/kits to go about this?

- Is my 20s battery plan(basically a 72v system) on the right track?

Both of those will depend on the job you want it to do.


- When it comes to BLDC(brushless DC) vs PMAC(permanent magnet AC) motors from what I read they are the same thing just have a different wavelength for controlling the motor so then does that come down to just different controllers for each?
You may see some of one that are labelled as the other, and vice-versa, or even as both. They do the same job in basically teh same way.




- So besides battery with bms, drive train wise is it just a motor and controller with a throttle right and for regen that’s also handled by the controller?
Yes. Depending on the specific controller design, regen can be controlled via throttle (slip regen, variable strength) or by a separate switch (on/off regen at a fixed level, simpler but not as useful), or by a separate analog input that can be fed by a second throttle or a variable-output brake lever, etc. for variable strength regen.

There's other details you probably want to add, like fuses, perhaps a DC-DC or separate battery for lights, possibly a built in charger if it's ridden in the city, maybe a keyswitch, etc.
 
What do you want the system to do for you, under what riding conditions / terrain / wind / etc? How quick does it need to acelerate? How fast does it have to go? For how long/far? With how much total weight? Etc.
So its gonna be an all over terrain from roads to dirt roads and trails kinda thing. I definitly dont want it to be doggy at all she needs some pep. Top speed I'd like to be around the 40-45mph. Range I guess as much as I can get and fit inside the frame with the other components really. I dont know how much it weights but I'm a big dude around 325lbs. So safe to say I would guess right around 400lbs.

Also lets you figure out if a simple hubmotor will do the job, or if you would be better off with a middrive, and what gearing to use to the wheel.

If you want regen (for extra braking, or energy recovery?), a hubmotor is simpler to use for that (putting regen thru a chain/belt/etc to a mid motor puts extra stress on the drive components and requires specific tensioning or mechanisms to ensure it in both directions).
I dont want to go with the hub motor because I would like to keep the original wheels. So mid drive motor with sprockets and chain would most likely be the way to go to be able to reuse the original wheel.
You may see some of one that are labelled as the other, and vice-versa, or even as both. They do the same job in basically teh same way.
So then do you normally buy the motor and controller together and/or are they interchangeable?

There's other details you probably want to add, like fuses, perhaps a DC-DC or separate battery for lights, possibly a built in charger if it's ridden in the city, maybe a keyswitch, etc.
So I do plan to have a DC-DC BEC added in for at least a head light and tail light. Planning on just keeping the Charger seperate. As for key switch it seems that you need to controller that has that integrated as I haven't seen any just by themselves I could be wrong.
 
Keyswitch is just a keyswitch. What it controls and how it controls it is up to you and the hardware you choose. Most systems have built in wiring to turn the controller on with some form of switch, some don't; but you can use a keyswitch to enable or disable it whether it has specific wiring or not.

If you're going to use a specific type of motor, you just make sure to use a controller that says it operates that (and meets all your other requirements of current, voltage, features, etc).


For the power needs you'll have to define the actual terrain it will need to handle, because you can't do the math or simulate the power needs without that. If you don't do that, you'll have to just guess how much power it will take, and what gearing, etc., and then perhaps overbuy on power at motor, controller, and battery, and then hope that's enough to do what you want (if it isn't, you'll have to buy new parts with higher capability and then hope *those* will do it, and if not....).

If you don't know what the terrain actually is, you can install apps on your phone that will use the built in phone sensors to record the whole path of the worst parts you'll ever use it on, then go ride it or walk it, and use the data collected to see the worst-case parts' slopes and lengths, and base your highest power needs on those.

Youll also need to decide what speed you want to go up those worst-case bits, and if it is significantly lower than your normal top speed, and you will have a single-speed setup, you may need more power capability or at least cooling capability than you would otherwise, as running a motor slower than optimal at high load will heat it much more rapidly than if you ran it at it's optimal speed at the high load. Ebikes.ca has a simulator that can help you see how this works.

Here's one example simulation with a direct hubmotor (picked becuase it's already thermally modelled so you can see how the overheating works, and I didn't want to take the time to figure out gearing to use it as a middrive so I used a high voltage pack instead to compensate for the small wheels), for 45mph up a 15% slope at 450lbs. (I used that because it's likely the whole system including the bike is going to weigh more than 75lbs).
I copied the data table below. At this basic guesstimate (you can do better ones by working out gearing with custom motor specs to match what you might want to run on it, etc; the results you get can vary hugely based on all the factors you enter and parts you choose), it takes about 10kw to do this. YOu probably wouldn't be going up this steep a hill very much or for very long, so let's say that most of the time you only need the power to go that speed on the flats, which is only about 4kw, and only need the other power maybe 10-25% of the time. So, if you used a 72v pack, and need 10kw, that's 10000 / 72 = 138.9a, so call it 150A to ensure parts aren't stressed, so the controller in this case would need to be rated around 150A battery current limit, and the battery itself would need to be able to handle more than 150A (so it isn't stressed when the controller does draw that much, and so it can still do it as the pack ages) . 4kw at 72v is 55.6A, so anything that can handle the extreme parts can handle that.

Let's say you needed an hour's riding time, with 3/4 of it on the flats and the rest fairly extreme; you'd need 0.75 x 4kwh (4kw for an hour, but only 3/4 of one), or 3kwh for the part on the flats, and 10kw (we'll be nice and call it 8kw average for the extreme parts) for 0.25 of an hour, or 0.25 x 8kwh or 2kwh, for a total of 5kwh of battery. I'm not sure there is enough space in the frame for that, even if there's only battery in the frame and not motor or gearing etc.

If you don't have anything that extreme to go up, don't need to go as fast, or as long, etc., the numbers go down from there. If you have worse hills, you'll need more power, and if you need more acceleration at the higher speeds you'll need more power and possibly a higher actual speed capability even if you never go that fast.


GraphSyst A
Wheel Torq82.0Nm
Mtr Power9220W
Load9248W
Efficiency86.0%
RPM1074.2 rpm


ElectricalSyst A
Mtr Amps84.0A
Batt Power10716W
Batt Amps66.2A
Batt Volts161.8V


PerformanceSyst A
Acceleration-0.02 mph/s
Consumption238.1 Wh/mi
Range13 mi
Overheat In20 minutes
Final Temp159 °C






Note that having a midmotor means you have (probably much) less space for battery if you only have battery inside the frame space.
 
Sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the information! Yeah once I figured out a motor and controller I would know its rough size to be able to roughly map out how to install things and make a battery around that.

So based off your picks of a 10kw motor with a 150a controller al a 72v battery do you happen to have any recommendations of brands or places to buy a mid mount motor and a controller or a combo of them together?
 
I didn't pick anything. I showed you examples of what might work in a specific situation; you have to define your specific job and terrain and figure out what power level you actually need. You might need more than that, less, etc.
 
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