Most powerful midmotor option below 10kg/23lbs

Another thought is that most left drive systems (as far as I've seen) are direct drives. Isn't it a relevant disadvantage if you don't have a gear reduction ? At what point does a gear reduction get unnecessary ? I mean sur ron uses a quite powerful motor and also uses a reduction. I guess more torque and less wait is always better (as long as you can still get the required top speed) ?
 
At the moment it seems like the QS 165 (sur ron replacement) motor would be the most powerful option below 10kg.
Would you agree with that or does anyone have an other guess ?
 
Well it'd be which midmotor comes liquid cooled, I know some of the magicpie stuff is liquid cooled, but I dont know their weight.
https://www.goldenmotor.com/
but then what about rc motors midmotor? Astro is what comes to mind, surely theres others.
 
calab said:
Well it'd be which midmotor comes liquid cooled, I know some of the magicpie stuff is liquid cooled, but I dont know their weight.
https://www.goldenmotor.com/
but then what about rc motors midmotor? Astro is what comes to mind, surely theres others.
Thanks a lot for your reply calab,
unfortunately all the golden motors are quite heavy and i guess if you add water and all the needed parts it gets even more heavy.
 
ebuilder said:
You want a high power e-bike aka over 4K watts?...then...
you need single rear cog and thick chain like a motorcycle.
You have a single rear cog...and throw in field weakening which allows for high motor RPM to create more power?...then...
To exploit power, you want short gearing which renders pedaling irrelevant.
Translation? Not feasible to pedal a high power ebike. Buy a Sur-Ron without pedals or higher power ebike aka e-motorcycle. Me?...at this level of motor power, gas aka ICE motorcycle wins every time in cost, power and range.

Yeah all the points you make there are correct but where I think the high powered E-bike really has some advantages is in the areas between a bike and a motorcycle. My aim with my V10 is to build something that is much lighter and more nimble than a dirt bike or even a Sur-ron with a target weight of around 60-70lbs and designed for a much lower top speed since it will be impossible to ride faster on the trails I want to ride anyway. This puts me in the enough power to not make it pedal-able but still nowhere near dirt bike levels of power. There is also the concern of making it still clearly a mountain bike so I can use it on mountain bike trails which I totally realize makes me a rule breaker with all the issues that go along with that I'm also the farthest thing from one in how, when, and where I ride.
 
I always want my bike lighter but accomplishing that you have to start making some real trade offs, in this case it will be hard to make it very light considering the bike already weights around 37.5lbs without any ebike parts on it. Still though that is a small fraction of what even the lightest (and still capable) dirt bikes weight. I expect if you wanted the a very light bike with still plenty of power it would be something along the lines of a carbon trail bike with a two stage belt or chain reduction similar to the Lightning rods but with a much lighter brushless outrunner aggressively air cooled and using a modified rear cassette and derailleur to take the power.

For another reference point I just finished a friend's build of a Nomad 2 in carbon fiber with a CYC X1 stealth and it certainly has more power than it needs, combined with it's short wheel base (size small frame) and light riders using anywhere near full power while keeping traction in the front end is tricky. I haven't weighted the bike but it's pretty light for what it's got, although currently has a very small backpack battery. Like the example above if I took that same setup and removed the gearbox from the drive, improved motor cooling (forced air) and increased current a tad, then sized the chainring down much smaller to make up the reduction it would be lighter with similar or more performance (especially if you added some of that weight from the gearbox into the motor size) but you would have to give up the ability to pedal.

I think there is a place for electric motorcycles that are slightly smaller and lighter than most motorcycles but again they have to be designed to be good at certain things and not good at everything. I've always found motorcycles uncomfortable and unsatisfying compared to bikes, which probably explains the DR350 that has been sitting in my garage for years unridden. I think this is partially down to me, a 200lb+ guy on that DR350 can maneuver it's weight and control it, the reach and height are comfortable, for me I can only barely tip toe even with the suspension slammed and my 120lb mass has barely any effect on the bike and I feel like a child sitting on it. Sure there are smaller bikes but very few seem to really be where I want to be. Those factors combined with I find EVs super interesting to build and work on and find gasoline engines and drive systems unnecessarily complex and inefficient.

I would someday like to build a street electric bike for 50-60mph speeds but I think it needs to be designed a bit different than the current crop of available bikes to be better than a gas bike for what I'm after. For one I think you need some serious aero work to have any hope of good range and reasonable weight. Starting with one of the few small bike frames in the 50-125cc range and giving it a realistic range and stupid torque through ludicrous phase amps.
 
Thanks a lot for your reply electric_nz,
I absolutely agree. But as I want to keep the derailleur to switch gears and to be able to pedal home when battery is empty. That's why I'm trying to reduce the force on these parts as much as possible by using a 24 inch wheel and going from 32t to the 52t cassette. If anyone has an other idea to reduce more force please let me know.

Just a little info on power, mid drives, and gearing...I run a Bafang BBSHD and I have an aftermarket controller that is set to 60A. I use a 28T Lekkie chain ring and a 22T White Industries freewheel. Also running a 72v battery. According to the Grin Tech Motor Simulator, I get 440 NM of torque at the rear wheel. I have to be careful when coming out of a corner or the front wheel comes up even if I have my 200 lbs positioned as far forward as reasonably possible.

Since an electric motor has max torque at zero rpms, I just run a single speed drivetrain...and even if I wanted to go faster, I'd still run a single speed. I use a Surly Singleator chain tensioner as opposed to a derailleur but I don't see any reason you couldn't run a a derailleur...since it just freewheels, the amount of torque going through the chain shouldn't matter. In fact I did run a 7 speed freewheel with a derailleur until I figured out I didn't really need the extra gears and I swapped to the single speed freewheel just to simplify everything. Your chain length and derailleur tension should be set so you get plenty of teeth engaged with the chain...my chain would slip on the smallest sprocket when I was running the 7 speed freewheel...I just can't remember if it was an 11T or a 13T since I have freewheels with both.

Did you end up going with the Lightning Rod kit and if yes, which one did you get i.e. big block or small block? How do you like it...if I didn't already have the BBSHD and I wanted to run "High" power, one of the Lightning Rod kits would be what I would buy :).
 
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I did actually build a LR belt drive single stage Small Block bike, still have little adjustments here and there but overall it's everything I ever wanted. I have it geared absurdly low and "only" have it running at 130 phase amps and it's always more torque than I can use while being faster than I ever will probably ride on the trails I ride. And with the right controller setup it is sublimely controlable even in the most technical terrain, certainly moreso than my ability to ride said terrain. And all of that in a bike that only weights 58 lbs currently.

I would say the LR kits are certianly not as plug and play as most kits available now but they are perfect for those more technically minded that want to build and tune for maximum performance.
 
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