motor and freewheel questions

[kenkad]

Hello,
Can someone who is familar with the non-geared Cyclone motors please tell me what the size of the key is on the 12 mm shaft (I assume that the shaft is 12 mm from some previous thread). Also, how long is the shaft from the face of the motor. How long is the key? I have not been able to find anything that provides this info and all I get from Cyclone USA is a drawing of the geared motors.

Are there CW and CCW freewheels? On the Cyclone, I assume that the direction of rotation of the motor is changed to accommodate the freewheel (so it was implied to me). I cannot just flip it because the threading becomes opposite. I need threaded freewheels, not keyed ones like Cyclone provides (like White Ind, except both CW and CCW). Thanks for the information and help.
kenkad

 

[gunthn]

Kent,

There are two different spin cyclone fws. CW and CCW. If you need one or the other just ask Paco at cyclone. He will get you the right one. They have the same keyway and they are not expensive. The motors and controllers are specific to the spin direction. They can be modified but it is not super simple to do. Not super hard either.

Hope this helps your quest!
Gunther

Sorry you said non geared my info was for geared. Just contanct Paco at cyclone tw. He knows every detail of the motor and parts availability. http://www.cyclone-tw.com/contact.htm

 

[boostjuice]

Straight off the cyclone website....

For the ungeared Cyclone motor - The armature shaft is 14mm and externally tapers down to a 12mm shaft that protrudes 43mm from the outer radius flange face (41mm from the stepped out inner flange face). The outer 30mm of this shaft is sprocket mountable. The 12mm section doesn't feature a keyway as such, rather it has two machined flats in 180degree opposition to form a 10mm wide mid-section. A double D shaft is one way to describe it. The flats also have two 4.2mm divots drilled at about 15mm from the end of the shaft. On my motor these were poorly aligned and poorly drilled.

It is designed for mouting 12mm ID single setscrew - or double 180degree offset setscrew - sprockets/roller clutch sprockets. It also has an M5 threaded hole in the end of the shaft for optional thrust washer support. It's design could be improved, the shaft would ideally feature 2 flats at a 90 degree offset to maximise shaft>sprocket contact/surface/fritional area.

Since the beginning of 2009, cyclone have been selling these motors with 7T sprockets contiguous with a one-way needle bearing to achieve freewheeling at the motor shaft. Torque-wise, these are borderline rated for these motors and so need replacing often compared to the regular BMX freewheels used on the planetary motors.

[Image courtesy of 'Methods']

PS: gunthn is referring to the planetary geared motors which do utilise a conventional style 20mm output shaft with a 6mm keyway. Depending on the drive mounting circumstances ie. CW rotation for twin chain BB drive setups, or CCW for single chain return path setups, a corresponding CW or CCW externally threaded freewheel adapter is keyed to the motor shaft in compliment with the motor rotation direction.
The required CW or CCW threaded/ratcheting freewheel is then attached as needed.
'ACS' and 'Dicta' make reverse threaded freewheels. The ACS version is called a 'Claw Southpaw' and like the dicta version, is available in as low as 14T (in 30mm IDx1mm threads).

If you want to mount a BMX freewheel directly to the shaft of an ungeared cyclone motor then you have 3 options;
-Get a custom made 12mm ID > 1 & 3/8" x 24TPI OD freewheel adapter with set-screw holes
-Get a custom made bushing to convert any of the large ID imperial freewheel adapters to 12mm
-Use a 1/2" (12.7mm ID) > 1 & 3/8" x 24TPI OD freewheel adapter with an epoxy glue/JB weld 'bushing' (however grip strength will be lower than close tolerance metal on metal contact)

 

[kenkad]

Hello BoostJuice,
I am not interested in the motor you pictured. I know that is on Cyclone's website. I am looking for a motor that has a true keyway on a 12mm shaft. I understand what Gunthn said. I have that drawing, but I am not interested in using Cyclone's planetary geared housing. I cannot imagine that the Cyclone planetary geared housing slips onto a double sided flat shaft as on the motor in the drawing you posted. That would be an awful design, needless to say not very accurate or snug. I did post to Cyclone asking for PDF drawings. I just have not heard back yet and I thought that someone on this forum was using the 650W or 900W non geared Cyclone motors and knew the answer to my question.

I really do appreciate the info about the ACS and Dicta freewheels. It appears that the ACS have 4 pawls and the Dicta have 2. At this point, I put the ACS info in my build file and will plan to use them. I do like the White Ind freewheels.
kenkad

 

[gunthn]

Kenkad,

I am fairly certain that you are referring to the 'ghost' motors of the cyclone website. They only exist as phantoms bedeviling would be customers. :wink:

I think they were discontinued. Boostjuice has a description of all of the motors available and their merits. I think it's a few threads back. I am sure he will fill in the blanks.

You are stuck with the 1500w non-geared if you want a 12mm shaft, though as you observe it is not a true keyed shaft. If you can do with 22mm and a key then the geared mtrs can have the freewheel removed from the shaft. Again, Boostjuice knows these motors better than cyclone so he can give you the inside line on what is exactly available and it's exact specs and build attributes. I am working from gathered info and my own exper. w. the geared motors so I most certainly defer to him. Also, Paco may as well hire him to do marketing because he seems to leave much confusion from his legendary website.

Gunther

 

[boostjuice]

kenkad,

When you said 'ungeared' motor i naturally understood that to mean the larger ungeared motors that Cyclone sells, not the planetary geared motors with the gearbox removed... a bit of clarity would have avoided all the irrelevant material.
Whilst the planetary gearbox output shaft is 20mm with a 6mm keyway, these also have a 12mm motor shaft that has striaght-cut gear splines machined directly into the shaft so as to mesh directely as the sun gear amidst the planet gears. There is no sun gear keyed to the shaft as you might expect.
If you have a gearbox on hand with a 12mm keyed input that you want to use, none of the cyclone motors will be any good to you without modification to the shaft or without bushing/coupling adapters being used.
12mm is not a common power transmission shaft size. 11mm and 14mm are IEC power transmission standards and you are far more likely to find motors with these shaft dimesions. Why is this the case? probably so Headline motor can avoid paying royalties to IEC

There are a few brushless DC motors with 14mm shafts to choose from here, but none that use conventionaly keyed 11mm or 12mm shafts; https://www.kellycontroller.com/shop/?mod=cat&cat_id=51,52

Gunthn, thanks for the kind words. As much as i rant on about tech details like i might work for Cyclone, i actually HATE the company due to their incompetence and would never work for them. However I am quite fond of the motors and controllers they provide due to the;
-Mid>High quality
-Realistic pricing
-Brushless design
-Decent power in a small package (>500W)
-The fact that - at least the planetary motors - are squat enough to fit between cranks with minimal BB spindle lengthening

I haven't found any other motors/controllers that come close to matching all these criteria. This is all credit to Headline electric though, It's a pity we cant order directly from them and avoid paying the markup for all the crappy mounting brackets that Cyclone bundles with them.