Motor perhaps overextended?

[Cyclomania]

I have a bike with a 250 watt motor.

I have overvolted this bike quite a lot. So I have a controller with max current of 25. And a 48volt battery 17AH.

When going up a slope earlier today. The motor then started making all kinds of strange noises. At least I am 80% sure this sound comes from the motor.

The battery connections still shows me 48 volts so I don't think the battery or controller have taken any damage. But the motor gave me a lot of strange sounds. It still runs but with a strange sound. Any idea what this is or how I can fix it?

 

[Cyclomania]

Yeah so this is why I don't understand why the cutoffs happen. The new battery rail has well soldered cables(same battery still). But the cutoffs still occurs. As I wrote above it cuts of at times. I see it go from around 1200watts on the display. And when the cutoffs appear seems to drop a bit.

Why this happens is a mystery to me.

Nobody knows?

 

[Cyclomania]

I would like to know why this is happening. Anyone has a clue?

 

[E-HP]

I would like to know why this is happening. Anyone has a clue?

Maybe you explained it already, but I have no idea of what you mean by "cutoff". In you description, you say you're running around 1200W and when there's a cutoff, it drops a bit. That doesn't sound like a cutoff, since there still power flowing, just a bit less. What is the bike's behavior when there's a "cutoff"

 

[LewTwo]

I don't know if this is the right word for it in english. Since I am not english or american.

No worries, we have the same problem ourselves at many time ....
George Bernard Shaw was quoted in 1942 as saying,
"England and America are two countries separated by the same language."

What the British do to the King's English at times should be considered a crime but it does not come close to what the Chinese do to it.

 

[amberwolf]

I might've missed it, but did you ever test the voltage drop at the moment the cutoffs happen? Meaning, what is the voltage at the input to the controller at that moment: before it happens, at the moment it happens, and after it has happened.

You'll need a voltmeter (not one built into the controller or display, but a separate one you know measures reliably and has a relatively quick display update, or is an analog display with a needle rather than digital. (cheap digital meters often update only every second or two, and probably won't catch the voltage drop at the critical moment).

Or use a wattmeter / coulometer that includes a voltage display and a Vmin readout, so you can see the voltage at any particular moment, as well as the minimum voltage the system reached under load (which would happen at the moment of a cutout if it's momentary, but if it actually shuts power off this Vmin may read a much lower voltage than happened at the cutout). For this to be useful you'll need the meter to be powered by it's own battery, so youc an still see it's readouts during and after the cutout, if cutout means the battery shuts off.

 

[ZeroEm]

starting to sound like the battery is out of balance.

 

[Cyclomania]

I would like to know why this is happening. Anyone has a clue?

Maybe you explained it already, but I have no idea of what you mean by "cutoff". In you description, you say you're running around 1200W and when there's a cutoff, it drops a bit. That doesn't sound like a cutoff, since there still power flowing, just a bit less. What is the bike's behavior when there's a "cutoff"

Yeah about the cutoffs. It kind of "cuts off" if you understand what I mean. Feels like the current drops and the system shuts down. You know like the motor stops for a second. There is no power for half a second or so. Then it keeps on going again.

Imagine like when the oven shuts off for a second or so, and becomes dark, at home. And then afterwards it keeps on going again.

The bike works pretty well now. It is just annoying that these cutoffs occurs now and then. And it would probably be good to know why it occurs. So I can get a better understanding of electric vehicles overall, and to keep this from occuring again in the future.

 

[Cyclomania]

I don't know if this is the right word for it in english. Since I am not english or american.

No worries, we have the same problem ourselves at many time ....
George Bernard Shaw was quoted in 1942 as saying,
"England and America are two countries separated by the same language."

What the British do to the King's English at times should be considered a crime but it does not come close to what the Chinese do to it.

What are the americans called that can trace their lineage all the way back to the first brits in 1776? American posterity or something like that?

 

[Cyclomania]

I might've missed it, but did you ever test the voltage drop at the moment the cutoffs happen? Meaning, what is the voltage at the input to the controller at that moment: before it happens, at the moment it happens, and after it has happened.

You'll need a voltmeter (not one built into the controller or display, but a separate one you know measures reliably and has a relatively quick display update, or is an analog display with a needle rather than digital. (cheap digital meters often update only every second or two, and probably won't catch the voltage drop at the critical moment).

Or use a wattmeter / coulometer that includes a voltage display and a Vmin readout, so you can see the voltage at any particular moment, as well as the minimum voltage the system reached under load (which would happen at the moment of a cutout if it's momentary, but if it actually shuts power off this Vmin may read a much lower voltage than happened at the cutout). For this to be useful you'll need the meter to be powered by it's own battery, so youc an still see it's readouts during and after the cutout, if cutout means the battery shuts off.

I haven't quite got that far. Came so much snow and I started training a new sport and stuff.

But I have that blue one. I think I screenshoted earlier in this thread if I am not mistaken. Do you think that is good enough to do what you talk about. Looks like in the link below:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003975079461.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.23.1a4b2aadU4BDXE&algo_pvid=9f1db769-7192-4e0b-9570-c340438326a6&algo_exp_id=9f1db769-7192-4e0b-9570-c340438326a6-11&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000027613732969%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21NOK%21219.56%2169.17%21%21%21%21%21%402100bc5c16739549063406548d06d8%2112000027613732969%21sea&curPageLogUid=kJIEHRWyHz3R

 

[Chalo]

I might've missed it, but did you ever test the voltage drop at the moment the cutoffs happen? Meaning, what is the voltage at the input to the controller at that moment: before it happens, at the moment it happens, and after it has happened.

I haven't quite got that far. Came so much snow and I started training a new sport and stuff.

But I have that blue one. I think I screenshoted earlier in this thread if I am not mistaken. Do you think that is good enough to do what you talk about. Looks like in the link below:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003975079461.html

Those capture and scroll a value indicated as Vmin, which is the lowest voltage recorded since the device was plugged in. That's likely to be the value at maximum sag under load. That will tell you if you've dropped into the neighborhood of low voltage cutoff for the whole pack. It won't tell you if one of the cells fell below minimum and triggered the BMS to cut off.

EDIT:
If the BMS cuts off, and the wattmeter is connected to the output leads, then it will be cut off and reset all its recorded values. If you attach the wattmeter to the cell pack terminals before the BMS, it will maintain the values. It also might stay on if it's plugged into the charge port (or it might not).

 

[Chalo]

What are the americans called that can trace their lineage all the way back to the first brits in 1776? American posterity or something like that?

WASP twats?

First Brits set up shop in what is now USA in 1585. It was the early 1600s before any of them stayed, survived and thrived. But there had been many generations of native born Anglo-Americans by 1776.

The earliest successful European settlement in what's now mainland USA was in 1565 by the Spanish.

 

[LewTwo]

What are the americans called that can trace their lineage all the way back to the first brits in 1776? American posterity or something like that?

WASP twats?

First Brits set up shop in what is now USA in 1585. It was the early 1600s before any of them stayed, survived and thrived. But there had been many generations of native born Anglo-Americans by 1776.

The earliest successful European settlement in what's now mainland USA was in 1565 by the Spanish.

I was going to say "deluded and diluted".
The US, as well as much of the rest of the world, is melting pot these days.

 

[ZeroEm]

I resemble that remark!

 

[Cyclomania]

I might've missed it, but did you ever test the voltage drop at the moment the cutoffs happen? Meaning, what is the voltage at the input to the controller at that moment: before it happens, at the moment it happens, and after it has happened.

I haven't quite got that far. Came so much snow and I started training a new sport and stuff.

But I have that blue one. I think I screenshoted earlier in this thread if I am not mistaken. Do you think that is good enough to do what you talk about. Looks like in the link below:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003975079461.html

Those capture and scroll a value indicated as Vmin, which is the lowest voltage recorded since the device was plugged in. That's likely to be the value at maximum sag under load. That will tell you if you've dropped into the neighborhood of low voltage cutoff for the whole pack. It won't tell you if one of the cells fell below minimum and triggered the BMS to cut off.

EDIT:
If the BMS cuts off, and the wattmeter is connected to the output leads, then it will be cut off and reset all its recorded values. If you attach the wattmeter to the cell pack terminals before the BMS, it will maintain the values. It also might stay on if it's plugged into the charge port (or it might not).

Interesting.

Hmm perhaps mine is not good enough to do a good reading then. Have you any other in mind that you could recommend perhaps? I mean to analyse the droppage and stuff. I can order things from Amazon and Ali. But not other US based firms usually, because then the shipping goes through the roof.

 

[Cyclomania]

Interesting.

Hmm perhaps mine is not good enough to do a good reading then. Have you any other in mind that you could recommend perhaps? I mean to analyse the droppage and stuff. I can order things from Amazon and Ali. But not other US based firms usually, because then the shipping goes through the roof.

I would much appreciate if someone knows a good tool for making this reading. Without costing extreme amounts of money. I have gotten through the winter by living with these cutoffs now and then. (The bike is still very good when it is working which is always but just not during cutoffs). But it would be nice to get to the bottom of the issue just so it does not happen on another bike I build or so

 

[E-HP]

I would much appreciate if someone knows a good tool for making this reading. Without costing extreme amounts of money. I have gotten through the winter by living with these cutoffs now and then. (The bike is still very good when it is working which is always but just not during cutoffs). But it would be nice to get to the bottom of the issue just so it does not happen on another bike I build or so

Search for a multimeter that includes and min/max function. It could be several hundred dollars for something like a Fluke or you can find something as low as $30 or so for something cheaper but would likely work as well in this case.

 

[amberwolf]

A wattmeter will do these things; even the cheap ones can usually do it just fine in my experience (though I haven't used very many of them).

I haven't seen your test results with the wattmeter you have so far. Until you try testing with it, there's no point in buying different test equipment, since it may do the job just fine. We won't know until you do the tests and post the results.

If yours doesn't have the function or can't detect Vmin or Amax correctly, then you can get a different one that would.

According to the page you linked for it, the specs, etc. are listed below.

It doesn't say specifically if it displays the Vmin or Amax, so you have to test it and see if any of the readouts on the screen change to show you the other values, or if it only shows the four things in the sale page images all the time. All the cheap meters I've had so far, from the original WattsUp to the TurnigyWattMeter and other clones, all use one of the displayed value spots to continuously change every few seconds to show the other values not constantly displayed. I thin it's the lower left one (Wh) on mine that do this. Below there is a spec "Data Queue Sequence Time" of 2 seconds, and that's probably the time it takes to swap out values onscreen.

It also says 400ms to update a measurement, so the display is almost half a second behind reality (but the actual measurements should be happening much faster than this and so be correct).

Digital LCD Display Blue DC 60V 100A Balance Voltage Battery Power Analyzer Watt Meter Checker Balancer Charger RC Tools Features: 1. The digital LCD screen provides clear digital readings. 2. Intermittent treatment up to 100 amps and continuous operation at 50 amps. 3. Connect the load to the battery to provide real-time battery charge readings. 4. Process 0 to 60 volts. Suitable for 12, 24, 36 and 48 volt battery pack systems. 5. Very low power consumption is 7 mA. More efficient than any other instrument. 6. Measure energy (wh), charge (ah), power (w), current (A) and voltage (V). 7. Accurate and accurate 0.01 A current and 0.01 V voltage resolution. 8. Measure max current, max power (except Doc Wattson) and voltage minimum (sagging). 9. Rugged - Handles 50A continuous and 100 A max at 60V. 10. Precision Alu-Chrom current sense resistor with a resistance of only 0.001 ohms and the circuit consumes only 7 mA. 11. Use DSP to increase ADC resolution and differential measurement amplifiers to improve noise immunity. Description: 1. Excellent complement to DC circuits, solar systems, boat / RV and battery backup systems. 2. Integrated meter, power meter, voltmeter, ampere hour meter, ammeter and electric energy meter. 3. A perfect troubleshooting tool. 4. Analysis, testing and troubleshooting of any DIY DC power supply project are indispensable. Specifications: Color: blue Voltage: (0)V-4V-60V 0.01V (resolution) Current: 0-100 A max 0.01A (resolution) Power: 0-6554 W 0.1W (resolution) Charging: 0-65 Ah 0.001Ah (resolution) Energy: 0-6554 wh 0.1 Wh (resolution) Measurement update cycle: 400mS Signal sampling rate: sample / sec Data queue sequence time: 2 seconds Circuit resistance: 0.001 ohms Working current: 7 mA Packing size: 117*75*35mm/4.61*2.95*1.37'

 

[Cyclomania]

A wattmeter will do these things; even the cheap ones can usually do it just fine in my experience (though I haven't used very many of them).

I haven't seen your test results with the wattmeter you have so far. Until you try testing with it, there's no point in buying different test equipment, since it may do the job just fine. We won't know until you do the tests and post the results.

If yours doesn't have the function or can't detect Vmin or Amax correctly, then you can get a different one that would.

According to the page you linked for it, the specs, etc. are listed below.

It doesn't say specifically if it displays the Vmin or Amax, so you have to test it and see if any of the readouts on the screen change to show you the other values, or if it only shows the four things in the sale page images all the time. All the cheap meters I've had so far, from the original WattsUp to the TurnigyWattMeter and other clones, all use one of the displayed value spots to continuously change every few seconds to show the other values not constantly displayed. I thin it's the lower left one (Wh) on mine that do this. Below there is a spec "Data Queue Sequence Time" of 2 seconds, and that's probably the time it takes to swap out values onscreen.

It also says 400ms to update a measurement, so the display is almost half a second behind reality (but the actual measurements should be happening much faster than this and so be correct).

Digital LCD Display Blue DC 60V 100A Balance Voltage Battery Power Analyzer Watt Meter Checker Balancer Charger RC Tools Features: 1. The digital LCD screen provides clear digital readings. 2. Intermittent treatment up to 100 amps and continuous operation at 50 amps. 3. Connect the load to the battery to provide real-time battery charge readings. 4. Process 0 to 60 volts. Suitable for 12, 24, 36 and 48 volt battery pack systems. 5. Very low power consumption is 7 mA. More efficient than any other instrument. 6. Measure energy (wh), charge (ah), power (w), current (A) and voltage (V). 7. Accurate and accurate 0.01 A current and 0.01 V voltage resolution. 8. Measure max current, max power (except Doc Wattson) and voltage minimum (sagging). 9. Rugged - Handles 50A continuous and 100 A max at 60V. 10. Precision Alu-Chrom current sense resistor with a resistance of only 0.001 ohms and the circuit consumes only 7 mA. 11. Use DSP to increase ADC resolution and differential measurement amplifiers to improve noise immunity. Description: 1. Excellent complement to DC circuits, solar systems, boat / RV and battery backup systems. 2. Integrated meter, power meter, voltmeter, ampere hour meter, ammeter and electric energy meter. 3. A perfect troubleshooting tool. 4. Analysis, testing and troubleshooting of any DIY DC power supply project are indispensable. Specifications: Color: blue Voltage: (0)V-4V-60V 0.01V (resolution) Current: 0-100 A max 0.01A (resolution) Power: 0-6554 W 0.1W (resolution) Charging: 0-65 Ah 0.001Ah (resolution) Energy: 0-6554 wh 0.1 Wh (resolution) Measurement update cycle: 400mS Signal sampling rate: sample / sec Data queue sequence time: 2 seconds Circuit resistance: 0.001 ohms Working current: 7 mA Packing size: 117*75*35mm/4.61*2.95*1.37'

I will try to get the time to do it during this weekend. Problem with my wattmeter is it shows amps and wattage and stuff( the blue one). But this is during the actual ride. So I think I will have to look down on the meter while riding kind of.

If anyone knows a good one that can be bought from Amazon it would be appreciated as well. We have Amazon in Scandinavia now so we can basically get all the things that are listed there these days. Although most other american sites have too expensive shipping. But Amazon is fine.

 

[amberwolf]

Doesn't it have one of the fields (usually lower left) that rotates thru the Amax, Vmin, and other statistics?

All the ones I've personally seen do, and the info from the page I quoted appears to indicate this one does, too, changing every couple of seconds..

 

[Cyclomania]

Doesn't it have one of the fields (usually lower left) that rotates thru the Amax, Vmin, and other statistics?

All the ones I've personally seen do, and the info from the page I quoted appears to indicate this one does, too, changing every couple of seconds..

It looks like this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003975079461.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.130c5f60qe0L69&algo_pvid=aa48503c-e0ba-4153-aa31-1d2dd135ca93&algo_exp_id=aa48503c-e0ba-4153-aa31-1d2dd135ca93-20&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000027613732969%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21NOK%21226.56%2195.13%21%21%216.22%21%21%402100bdd516690686646043246e9953%2112000027613732969%21sea&curPageLogUid=oxxssE68XteZ

It does not have a setting(as far as I know) that makes it possible to see when you are still(not riding) what happened during the ride. I have to look down on it and try to see in real time what happens on the screen during the cutoffs I believe.

Or I might have misunderstood the settings on it. But as far as I know it works only in real time.

Which of these should I look for during the cutoffs? The one in the top left corner called "A"? And then see if it drops or something?

 

[E-HP]

It does not have a setting(as far as I know) that makes it possible to see when you are still(not riding) what happened during the ride. I have to look down on it and try to see in real time what happens on the screen during the cutoffs I believe.

Or I might have misunderstood the settings on it. But as far as I know it works only in real time.

Which of these should I look for during the cutoffs? The one in the top left corner called "A"? And then see if it drops or something?

Here's the cheapest multimeter on Amazon with a Min/Max function. Connect it to the battery, set the meter to volts, press the Min function, go ride around.

https://www.amazon.com/AVID-POWER-Auto-Ranging-Capacitance-Temperature/dp/B095CDBH8T/ref=sr_1_88?crid=1QAE8E66X0M8A&keywords=digital+multimeter+min/max&qid=1678057591&sprefix=digital+multimeter+min/max,aps,194&sr=8-88

 

[amberwolf]

If your meter isn't functionally just like this one

Amazon.com

I'd be surprised.

At about 30 seconds before the end of the video, it shows the lower left number changing from one parameter to the next every couple seconds or so. The sale page for yours indirectly says it should do that, too.

In this meter, it shows Ap for peak amps, and Vm for lowest voltage dip.

This meter, which looks like yours (probably is the same),

Amazon.com

shows images that indicate that lower left number does change, because it has different parameters in different pictures.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71he+7DVj0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg

It's specifications say it changes every 0.4 seconds between these values

DC power analyser:
4V - 60V 0 - 100A for measuring power flow in a low voltage circuit such as the flow - in Watts - and the cumulative rate of flow - in Watt-hours - from a solar panel or a DC wind generator into a battery.
+positive/-negative (GND) two-wire input (Source)
two-wire output (Load) for series insertion into circuit.
Parameter:
Two-line LCD - updated per 0.4 seconds - displays eight different values:
Power 0 - 6554 Watts to 0.1W resolution
Current 0 - 100 Amps (max) 50A continuous to 0.01A resolution
Voltage 4 - 60 Volts to 0.01V resolution
Power flow rate 0 - 6554 Watt-hours (Wh) to 0.1Wh resolution
Current flow rate 0 - 65 Amp-hours (Ah) to 0.001Ah resolution
Peak current in Amps
Peak power in Watts
Voltage minimum (dip) over monitoring period
Low in-circuit resistance just 0.001 Ohms negligible 7mA circuit load.
Dimensions 84 x 50 x 20mm (L x W x D)

This one that also is like yours

Amazon.com

also does the same stuff:

Feature:​

100% Brand new and high quality.
Digital LCD screen gives clear crisp number readings.
Handles up to 100 amps intermittently and 50 amps continuous duty.
Connecting load end to the battery provides real-time battery charging reading.
Handles 0 to 60 volts. Works on 12, 24, 36, and 48 volt battery bank systems.
Extremely low power consumption of 7 mA. More efficient than any LED meter.
Measure energy(wh),charge(ah), power(w),current(A) and voltage(V).
Accurate & precise 0.01 A current and 0.01 V voltage resolutions.
Measures for peak Amps, peak Watts(except for Doc Wattson) and Voltage minimum(sag).
Rugged- handles 50A continuous and 100 A peak at 60V.

This search of amazon shows a bunch of similar meters (and a bunch that aren't, but they're generally obviously different visually).

Amazon.com : turnigy watt meter

 

[E-HP]

 

[amberwolf]

Yes, like that one does.

 

[Cyclomania]

So I have dabbled a bit with the screws. But realised they sit hard as a mofo.

I think I should they a step back and wait for opinions on good torque wrenches(or other tools for this job?), from you guys, before I keep going.

I think perhaps I will destroy the threads if I screw harder to the left now with my regular hexagon key.

Any idea on how to get this thing open without destroying the threads too much?

I think it perhaps sits with loctite also. Looks like the clip:

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Image of the thing:

This thread got its solution. So can be archived.