Motorcycle class Hub Motor
- Thread starter markcycle
- Start date
RoughRider
100 W
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 208
mark, tell us about the 602 test?? 
dave.com
10 mW
swbluto said:Looks like that motor would sing at 130-150 volts.
I thought so too, so I took some liberties with the available data (made a few WAGs), and ran a simulation of the 602 using your cool sim.
It appears the Lifan with the 602 and a Kelly 144V*, 250A controller just might be a 13 second bike.
Assumptions and caveats:
The Kv came from the data in this forum, as stated by Mark.
The winding resistance of .052 ohm is extrapolated from comparing the resistance of the 5303 and 5302, and dividing the published winding resistance for the 603 by the ratio between the 2 X5 motors. Probably wrong, but maybe close enough (I avoided using the phase of the moon in my calcs).
The drag numbers came out of my butt, I really have no idea. A 'busa reputedly has a CdA of about 0.27. CdA is the product of the drag coefficient and frontal area. I'm guessing the Lifan is much worse, maybe .35 or so? Let's call it .7M^2 area X .5 Cd. Aero drag probably doesn't affect 0-60 much, but would definitely limit terminal speed and et in the 1/4 mile.
The mass of the bike/rider is assumed to be 350lb + 150lb.
10p50s a123 pack, which should be able to deliver the current, roughly 10.8C.
The catch, although the batteries might be able to supply the current, the Kelly 250A 144V controller is going to be in serious armature current limiting till we're at about 25mph (it's highest setting is 600A). This might actually help a little, as wheelspin would probably keep the bike from putting the power down anyway.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I'm overvolting the Kelly a bit (their website says the 144V unit will take 180V).
Call me a dreamer, but whadda ya think, maybe a mid to high 14 second bike?, still quite respectable. Now, I wonder what it would do in my 70lb, carbon fiber go-one?
Dave
markcycle
10 kW
It all looks good except your wheel dia. way to big for an 18 inch motorcycle rim go with 24 to 25 inch
Stay with a smaller tire and it could be a 10 second bike
Just wanted to add with all that voltage a 17 inch rim may be better and a tire Dia. of 22 inches
Mark
Stay with a smaller tire and it could be a 10 second bike
Just wanted to add with all that voltage a 17 inch rim may be better and a tire Dia. of 22 inches
Mark
dave.com
10 mW
markcycle said:
Yeah, I didn't know the exact width and series you used, so I guessed. I agree, there are lots of low profile choices in 17" or smaller that would work much better.
I think 10s would be possible with the right controller. (Otmar, hint, hint, wink, nudge), but it won't get done just stuffing in more amps. With 300V and 250A, 10s are within reach, in the dream world of simulation, anyway. I wonder if the Xlyte windings can take the pwm spikes at 300V. These motors are pretty bombproof, I'd almost be willing to fry, uh, I mean try it.
A NEDRA record might help your sales, but I expect you want to get production nailed before going off on record attempts.
Jay64
100 kW
I'm not really into drag racing, but I used to do some drag racing back in the day. I can get awesome starts at a roadrace now. But to me they are over way too fast. Right when I get my addrenaline going, the race is over. I do have a drag race track right down the road from here. I could go do some tests there too. But I will be testing at the roadrace track first and foremost, and only do the drags as testing and for show.
But to me they are over way too fast. Right when I get my addrenaline going, the race is over. I do have a drag race track right down the road from here. I could go do some tests there too. But I will be testing at the roadrace track first and foremost, and only do the drags as testing and for show.dave.com said:swbluto said:Looks like that motor would sing at 130-150 volts.
I thought so too, so I took some liberties with the available data (made a few WAGs), and ran a simulation of the 602 using your cool sim.
It appears the Lifan with the 602 and a Kelly 144V*, 250A controller just might be a 13 second bike.
Assumptions and caveats:
The Kv came from the data in this forum, as stated by Mark.
The winding resistance of .052 ohm is extrapolated from comparing the resistance of the 5303 and 5302, and dividing the published winding resistance for the 603 by the ratio between the 2 X5 motors. Probably wrong, but maybe close enough (I avoided using the phase of the moon in my calcs).
The drag numbers came out of my butt, I really have no idea. A 'busa reputedly has a CdA of about 0.27. CdA is the product of the drag coefficient and frontal area. I'm guessing the Lifan is much worse, maybe .35 or so? Let's call it .7M^2 area X .5 Cd. Aero drag probably doesn't affect 0-60 much, but would definitely limit terminal speed and et in the 1/4 mile.
The mass of the bike/rider is assumed to be 350lb + 150lb.
10p50s a123 pack, which should be able to deliver the current, roughly 10.8C.
The catch, although the batteries might be able to supply the current, the Kelly 250A 144V controller is going to be in serious armature current limiting till we're at about 25mph (it's highest setting is 600A). This might actually help a little, as wheelspin would probably keep the bike from putting the power down anyway.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I'm overvolting the Kelly a bit (their website says the 144V unit will take 180V).
Call me a dreamer, but whadda ya think, maybe a mid to high 14 second bike?, still quite respectable. Now, I wonder what it would do in my 70lb, carbon fiber go-one?
Dave
I have no idea what kind of batteries you're using, but I would expect something a lot less than .05 ohms for the battery's internal resistance to provide that much power. The batteries internal resistance could have a large impact on your prediction's performance. Oh wait, I see the batteries. 10p50s -> (50*.008)/10 = .04. Ok, so it's not off. Nevermind.
dave.com
10 mW
[/quote]
I thought I remembered 10 milliohm per cell, it's actually 8, wow. Well as long as you made me think twice about the data, there is also the .005 ohm controller resistance ;+} I'm making a big assumption that the fets in the 144V Kelly have very low rds on (or there are many in parallel), but you could write a book on what I don't know about this crap.
swbluto: PS, any chance of a "multiple motor" option for the sim?, i.e. single controller driving 2 siamesed motors, 2 independent controllers driving 2 independent motors. I've been cheating by just dividing the winding resistance in half and doubling the limit and no load current, but I don't know if this is really correct. And don't worry, I won't ask about armature current limit . And btw, this sim is just too damned cool, I'll never use my ev power spreadsheet again!
swbluto said:
I have no idea what kind of batteries you're using, but I would expect something a lot less than .05 ohms for the battery's internal resistance to provide that much power. The batteries internal resistance could have a large impact on your prediction's performance. Oh wait, I see the batteries. 10p50s -> (50*.008)/10 = .04. Ok, so it's not off. Nevermind.
I thought I remembered 10 milliohm per cell, it's actually 8, wow. Well as long as you made me think twice about the data, there is also the .005 ohm controller resistance ;+} I'm making a big assumption that the fets in the 144V Kelly have very low rds on (or there are many in parallel), but you could write a book on what I don't know about this crap.
swbluto: PS, any chance of a "multiple motor" option for the sim?, i.e. single controller driving 2 siamesed motors, 2 independent controllers driving 2 independent motors. I've been cheating by just dividing the winding resistance in half and doubling the limit and no load current, but I don't know if this is really correct. And don't worry, I won't ask about armature current limit
. And btw, this sim is just too damned cool, I'll never use my ev power spreadsheet again!
liveforphysics
100 TW
I'm going to be putting Mark's 602 onto the lightest little BMX style bike I can find, and putting my 50kw capable 84v 20Ah LiPo pack on the bike, and my giant Kelly controller. I'm aware that I will need to make my own wider/stronger rear wheel stays, and I can make them longer to help avoid wheelies. Maybe do a delta/wye setup with it if I feel like i'm not getting enough top-end.
Jay64- For road racing, you are going to be pushing less power than the little aprilla 125cc road racing bikes, while weighing a ton more, and those 125bikes are all ready painfully slow, despite the fantastic cornering provided by the ultra lightweight, which you wont have on your side. Just the batteries alone will outweigh the entire aprilla 125 roadrace bikes. I don't want to sound like a downer, and I wish you the best of luck.
Jay64- For road racing, you are going to be pushing less power than the little aprilla 125cc road racing bikes, while weighing a ton more, and those 125bikes are all ready painfully slow, despite the fantastic cornering provided by the ultra lightweight, which you wont have on your side. Just the batteries alone will outweigh the entire aprilla 125 roadrace bikes. I don't want to sound like a downer, and I wish you the best of luck.
markcycle
10 kW
liveforphysics said:
At first I wasn't going to reply to this, why when in time will have the real world test, but I am. It is not possible to do a direct compare between a gas engine and an electric motor because of the torque curve differences. Sure off the line it not going to compete. The track Jay has planned for the test is a curvy course with no real straightaways. So if we size everything right and understand the speed he is going into the turns and the speed he wants coming out of the turns we'll do OK. Once the motor gets overs 200 RPM You can really feel the acceleration. Being direct drive 0 to 200 RPM is the low eff and power band so off the line yes the motor is not race material, but once its going just keep dumping amps and she'll perform. We'll run the motor right up to the edge of overheating, 300 to400 amp pulls out of the turns. she'll do well. We're not build a race bike just trying to show the potential of the bike and motor.
Mark
liveforphysics
100 TW
I would love to have Jay show me that I'm wrong, but I'm just not convinced Mark. I do believe that electric smooth torque has it's advantages, and I bet it does pull pretty well when it's in its efficiency curve, however... The whole weight of those bikes is 248lbs, and they make 33bhp. They have gearing to enable the rider to just slip the clutch for a brief second or two off the line, and then close enough gears to never drop out of the power band, so they are always pushing at least 25-33bhp while your ride them (if you are a rider who can shift well enough to milk the engines power effectively). They have exceptional suspension, exceptional brakes, exceptional handling, and very light wheels with racing frame geometry. They are super fun for learning to corner, which they do very well. Even a novice can learn to drag his knee riding a fantastic handling Aprillia 125.
And yet, they are still a damn hazard on the track because they are so slow. Down the straight, it's like they aren't even moving, it's seriously like having a moving chicane in the middle of the straights off every turn you have to get around as you are passing them. They are probably where the term "almost drove up his tailpipe" originated from. I really hope to be proven incorrect, but I can't see a hub motor even being able to match the Aprillia 125 around even the tightest of road courses.
It seems like you have a great and unique product for making an electric commuter motorcycle conversion, and it creates a uniquely silent and reliable and simple conversion, which are all awesome things, and I personally will be buying your product. However, I can't help but think that racing with it seems more like a way to unintentionally highlight the weaknesses of the product rather than it's strengths. I hope I am badly mistaken in this train of thought! And I do wish the best of luck, and excitedly await all updates on how it goes.
Best Wishes,
-Luke
And yet, they are still a damn hazard on the track because they are so slow. Down the straight, it's like they aren't even moving, it's seriously like having a moving chicane in the middle of the straights off every turn you have to get around as you are passing them. They are probably where the term "almost drove up his tailpipe" originated from. I really hope to be proven incorrect, but I can't see a hub motor even being able to match the Aprillia 125 around even the tightest of road courses.
It seems like you have a great and unique product for making an electric commuter motorcycle conversion, and it creates a uniquely silent and reliable and simple conversion, which are all awesome things, and I personally will be buying your product. However, I can't help but think that racing with it seems more like a way to unintentionally highlight the weaknesses of the product rather than it's strengths. I hope I am badly mistaken in this train of thought! And I do wish the best of luck, and excitedly await all updates on how it goes.
Best Wishes,
-Luke
markcycle
10 kW
liveforphysics said:
Luke everything you say is true and I we are not building a race bike. We said that in every post. We're just saying we are going to take a bike hopefully powered to the max and test it on the track. I saying it will perform well for an electric motorcycle. Mostly I'm trying to show that a bike built with this hub motor can be fun to ride, a bike you can zip around and through traffic and have head room in the throttle. Specifically I want to show that a hub motor can make a true motorcycle, not the most powerful by any stretch but when you get on it and ride you will say to yourself, this is no scooter. That's my goal, and I feel I have achieved that with my Lifan build using the MHM-603. This is a attempt to take the concept of a hub motor motorcycle a little further and get some testing data. So no disagreement, none of the current electric motorcycle can come close to a race bike. This is being shown at the Iles of Mans race all the elecric bikes are posting slower times than ICE bikes.
Mark
liveforphysics
100 TW
Cool, you've been a really straight shooter with all of this right from the get-go, and I really respect that.
Just for fun, one electric bike did run faster than a petrol bike Electric's need to start somewhere, and beating the small records is how you begin to advance. It's a great day!
The winner, team Agni, posted a time that beat the 50cc record for the track set in 1966.
"Barber led the TTX GP from the early stages and crossed the line at the end of the one lap race with a time of 25m 53.5s, 87.43mph, just inside the 50cc TT lap record of 86.49mph, set by Ralph Bryans in 1966.
Barber, riding for Team Agni in the Pro class, finished a whopping 3m 11.43s ahead of second place Thomas Schoenfelder on the XXL Racing Team entry. Schoenfelder clocked the fast time through the Sulby speed trap of 106.5mph, the only rider to exceed 100mph.
Barber said: “I’m really pleased for Cedric (Lynch – the creator of the winning machine who has been building electric bikes for competition since 1981). He really wanted to beat that 50cc record and we’ve done it."
Just for fun, one electric bike did run faster than a petrol bike
Electric's need to start somewhere, and beating the small records is how you begin to advance. It's a great day!The winner, team Agni, posted a time that beat the 50cc record for the track set in 1966.
"Barber led the TTX GP from the early stages and crossed the line at the end of the one lap race with a time of 25m 53.5s, 87.43mph, just inside the 50cc TT lap record of 86.49mph, set by Ralph Bryans in 1966.
Barber, riding for Team Agni in the Pro class, finished a whopping 3m 11.43s ahead of second place Thomas Schoenfelder on the XXL Racing Team entry. Schoenfelder clocked the fast time through the Sulby speed trap of 106.5mph, the only rider to exceed 100mph.
Barber said: “I’m really pleased for Cedric (Lynch – the creator of the winning machine who has been building electric bikes for competition since 1981). He really wanted to beat that 50cc record and we’ve done it."
Jay64
100 kW
Sorry, I haven't been able to get online for a while. Seems like I wasn't very clear here. Like Mark mentioned, we are not trying to build a RACE bike. We are not trying to break any track records. Well, wait a second, on second thought, I guess any lap time produced will technically be a lap record... a lap record for fastest EV bike around the track. 8) But that is not the intention of the test. Like I mentioned before, the first and foremost goal is to go fast enough to stay out of the way of other riders and not be a danger to them or myself. I want to take Mark's motor out to the track and flog the living s*!t out of it. I want to give a good showing of what it is capable of when pushed to it's limits. Yea, there is probably a very good chance that I will expose some potential short comings in the motor. But in my eyes as a test rider, that is my job. I do the same thing with ICE motors. The team I used to ride for did this all the time, they build a new spec motor and had us go out and flog it, then take data from the test and tweak the spec. From all I know about Mark, I believe he will do the same thing with any data we get from the testing. The original purpose of racing is to push the envolpe of the design in exaggerated real world conditions. That is how you refine/improve a design. You need to be able to find the weaknesses in order to improve them. I have mad respect for Mark for putting his design up to this potential abuse, to learn what it can do and what it needs improvement on. Very few companies in this industry put their products out like that. Mark has proven his motor in real world/every day use. Now we need to go farther.
I don't plan on beating the 125s in the corner, not gonna happen. Nor do I plan on beating the 1000s on the straights, not gonna happen. But that is why I roadrace, not just drag race. It is a whole lap. It is putting multiple corners together, and putting multiple laps together. I plan on beating the 125s on the straights and the 1000s in the corners.
My point of me wanting to pass at least one ICE bike was more a matter of my personal drive to beat people on the track. By no stretch of the imagination am I thinking I'm just going to motor past someone on the short straights. Hell, maybe you are right, maybe I won't pass anyone. But the odds against me not passing anyone never stopped me before. I'm a racer. I race. I push myself and machine to always go faster. I will do my best to pass someone with this Ev build. If I don't, no one except myself expected me to, if I do... GRAVY!!! 8) You have to admit, if I DO pass someone with this build, that would be fricken incredible. The motor design is for a zippy commuter. It is not meant to pass up ICE bikes on a race track. If the bike doesn't do this, then it is not a fault of the motor, it is still within the design of the motor. Me not passing anyone will only be a blow to my own ego. But, if I am able to ride the bike/motor to it's limits like I think I can, then that will be a testament to the ability of the motor to outperform it's intended purpose. And there is also a very good chance that none of this will happen on the first test run. But I do plan to learn from the test, make changes, and then go at it again. Even if I do pass someone in the first test, I plan to make changes, and then go at it again, and see if I can drop my lap times.
BTW, if I pass a bike in the corners and they come blowing back past me on the short straight, that still counts as a pass on my part! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't plan on beating the 125s in the corner, not gonna happen. Nor do I plan on beating the 1000s on the straights, not gonna happen. But that is why I roadrace, not just drag race. It is a whole lap. It is putting multiple corners together, and putting multiple laps together. I plan on beating the 125s on the straights and the 1000s in the corners.
My point of me wanting to pass at least one ICE bike was more a matter of my personal drive to beat people on the track. By no stretch of the imagination am I thinking I'm just going to motor past someone on the short straights. Hell, maybe you are right, maybe I won't pass anyone. But the odds against me not passing anyone never stopped me before. I'm a racer. I race. I push myself and machine to always go faster. I will do my best to pass someone with this Ev build. If I don't, no one except myself expected me to, if I do... GRAVY!!! 8) You have to admit, if I DO pass someone with this build, that would be fricken incredible. The motor design is for a zippy commuter. It is not meant to pass up ICE bikes on a race track. If the bike doesn't do this, then it is not a fault of the motor, it is still within the design of the motor. Me not passing anyone will only be a blow to my own ego. But, if I am able to ride the bike/motor to it's limits like I think I can, then that will be a testament to the ability of the motor to outperform it's intended purpose. And there is also a very good chance that none of this will happen on the first test run. But I do plan to learn from the test, make changes, and then go at it again. Even if I do pass someone in the first test, I plan to make changes, and then go at it again, and see if I can drop my lap times.
BTW, if I pass a bike in the corners and they come blowing back past me on the short straight, that still counts as a pass on my part! :lol: :lol: :lol:
MikeB
100 mW
markcycle said:
Hey, wait a moment, my non-electric scooter is a 600cc Honda SilverWing, and I've taken it to 105mph. Don't knock scooters just because some of them are slow.
Btw, I'd love to see your motor put into a SilverWing body. It's got tons of room for batteries, and is an excellent ride in most any condition. I know you're targeting the smaller motorcycle conversion, but maxi-scooters might do just as well. The only issue I see is moving to a 12-13" wheel, rather than 18".
The low step though is a crucial characteristic to define "scooter". Although you might be able to lift your leg on a Silverwing in a side impact. The small wheel diameter is the what makes scooter dynamics suck. The Defiant scooter gives motorcycle wheel dynamics.
http://defiantscooter.com/Pages/Make A Defiant/defiant_kit_3_suspension.html
http://defiantscooter.com/Pages/Make A Defiant/defiant_kit_3_suspension.html
markcycle
10 kW
MikeB said:markcycle said:
Hey, wait a moment, my non-electric scooter is a 600cc Honda SilverWing, and I've taken it to 105mph. Don't knock scooters just because some of them are slow.
Btw, I'd love to see your motor put into a SilverWing body. It's got tons of room for batteries, and is an excellent ride in most any condition. I know you're targeting the smaller motorcycle conversion, but maxi-scooters might do just as well. The only issue I see is moving to a 12-13" wheel, rather than 18".
No knock to scooters especially maxi scooters It just that in general scooter get you from place A to place B but they are not regarded as fun to ride in the sense that you look forward to seeing how fast you can take a turn (for me thats not very fast). I've never seen anyone on a scooter set up a turn shift there weight in the opposite direction and kinda push the bike down as they go around there favorite bend in the road. Take the inside and pull up along the outside while giving it full throttle out of the turn. I'm trying to put the parts together so we can build electric motorcycles with enough batteries to have a little fun with (ICE bikes being much faster are alot of fun) and go from place A to Place B all at the same time. Some will say a hub motor is not the way to do it But if you want to put a large amount of batteries low on the bike the hub motor solution really can work.
Mark
dnmun
1 PW
whaattta jeeerrk, where's popeye? i thought he only did this shit to me.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Yes, but usually not for that long.swbluto said:
Jay64
100 kW
swbluto said:
Uh, wasn't that all from a totally different thread????
You never saw me back in my 'wild days'. There were a couple of drunken nights in college with me packing one of my race partners on my GFs little razz scooter where we were both nearly dragging knee and sliding the rear tire and dragging the side bodywork all the way through the turn. :lol:markcycle said:
Aahh, good times. ha ha.Similar threads
