Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[markcycle]

Ok, I just saw that you had mentioned earlier that it had "push you back in the seat" power. Sounds good to me. What dimensions do you need from the swingarms? I've got quite a few bikes/swingarms around here I could measure up for you to save you some r&d costs. I've got access to XR100, XR200, DRZ125, TS185, '88 CBR600, '02 GSXR 600, '06 GSXR600. I also could make some phone calls and get some dimensions for RMZ450, DRZ400, and some various other ones. What is the volt limit for this motor? What do you think the top speed could be with more volts? I saw in a really early post something about 60mph. Do you think this is still abtainable with higher volts? I really like the black finish, but some people really like the bling factor. Are there any plans for having different colored hubs in the future? It's not like you have to hide it like in a bicycle in some places. If it is aluminum, then you could have it anodized different colors.
Also, have an option to go with some light weight/performance rims such as excel.
http://www.rkexcelamerica.com/mx_excel_rims.html

Lots a really good question here
First Jay thanks for the offer If in your spare time when you get a chance if you could give me the spacing between the arms at the axle mounting and axle Diameter for the different bikes you mention above, that would be great, a real help.

What is the volt limit of this motor?
I'm rating the motor at 96 volts or I should say a 96 volt battery which hot off the charger will be higher.

Top speed of the motor
Top speed is hard to predict, it depends of the Aero of your bike. That said 100 volts and 100amps will get you 10KW at the battery that's 13HP so 11.5 to 12HP at the tire. Now do 2 wheel drive and Wow that will be a fast bike!!

Color can happen, not a priority right now. Powered coat seem better if I go with a cast side cover If machined them anodizing is possible (cost is always a factor)

Just to review voltage for this motor
As we all know wheel diam. is the gear ratio for a hub motor.
For a Wye connected motor
I am using a 18 inch rim with a 3 inch tire, which is big for a rear wheel of a motorcycle (not width but Diam.). My motor at 70volts under load is doing 45MPH and pulling just under 60 amps (the motor is running cold at that power level) At 96 volt the motor will draw 82 amps (better) Now how does that relate to real world speed well its hard to predict since air resistance goes up exponentially with speed. At speed a good areo bike is much more important than weight so that's where the effort should be when you got about 12Hp to work with.

Delta connected motor
For 16 inch and 17 inch rims I am going to connect the motor Delta otherwise the voltage need would be to great.
For the delta connected motor I am rating the wheels 60 volts for the 17 inch and 72 volts for the 16 inch. The current will need to go up by a factor of 1.73 to maintain comparable power to the wye connected motor.

Also, have an option to go with some light weight/performance rims such as excel
The unsprung weight issue can be addressed to some degree by doing just that. Brand name rims such as excel are expensive but for those who want them sure. Excel rims will make this hub shine by shedding pounds off the wheel compared to a steel rim.

Happy New Year all
2009 the year of the Motorcycle Hub Motor
The year you can easily put enough batteries in that E-Motorcycle to go the distance.

Mark

 

[gogo]

What is the volt limit of this motor?
I'm rating the motor at 96 volts or I should say a 96 volt battery which hot off the charger will be higher.

So, what you are saying here is that someone needs to test their motor on an 18" wheel @120V/160A? :wink:

 

[Jay64]

I just realized that I had earlier had mentioned a GS 650 as a good bike. I meant to suggest both a GS500 and a SV650

 

[markcycle]

Quick update
I purchased this motorcycle yesterday online, should have it in a week.
I'm thinking of keeping the gas engine in the bike and make it a parallel hybrid. Running on both the gas and hub motor It will double the horsepower of the bike.

Drawing are being finalized as we speak and hope to have them out to the manufacture early next week. I also got the swingarm from 2 different bikes Ninja250 and a Honda Rebal and using them to verify my design.
Have a phone meeting next week with Nissin Brakes An R&D engineer is going to help me specify a disc brake for the Hub Motor.
Also sick as a dog
Also got my 120 volt Kelly Controller but I'm just to sick to install it.

Which is why I'm up at 3:20 AM in New York writing this

Mark

 

[Jay64]

If you leave the motor in, where are you going to be able to fit the batteries?

 

[markcycle]

If you leave the motor in, where are you going to be able to fit the batteries?

My goal is to use 96 volts @ 20AH
Saddlebags and under the seat I hope. When I get the bike I'll explore the fesability in detail

Mark

 

[evmotorcycle.org]

That motors coming out dude! Hope you feel better!

 

[marty]

That motors coming out dude! Hope you feel better!

I agree with evmotorcycle.org - Remove that noisy smelly gas motor. Sell it on Ebay or scrap aluminum.

Got a battery pack for you. Put battery where motor was. Go here to learn more.
DEFECTIVE * Makita Lithium Ion 18V * FOR SALE
Will sell the whole pile. Send private message.
View attachment 1

x I'm just to sick to install it.
Which is why I'm up at 3:20 AM in New York writing this
Mark

I also was sick about a week ago. All better now

 

[evmotorcycle.org]

I thought I was the only one who ate the LifeP04! Nice pile Marty I just hope none of those terminals are touchin'

 

[markcycle]

That motors coming out dude! Hope you feel better!

I agree with evmotorcycle.org - Remove that noisy smelly gas motor. Sell it on Ebay or scrap aluminum.

Got a battery pack for you. Put battery where motor was. Go here to learn more.
DEFECTIVE * Makita Lithium Ion 18V * FOR SALE
Will sell the whole pile. Send private message.
View attachment 1

x I'm just to sick to install it.
Which is why I'm up at 3:20 AM in New York writing this
Mark

I also was sick about a week ago. All better now

Hi Marty
There no way I could build a pack out of so many small cell I just don't have the time. I'm very happy with HI POWER cells that I got from Electromotorsport, and would try to go with them again or take a chance on thundersky. For me large format is the way to

Mark

 

[markcycle]

So the hollow axle motor is a 100% go fully financed and supported by my company EnerTrac Corp. All the details have been worked out and I don't mean design details.
I may be sick but its been a good week. I am getting better and I'm hoping early spring for general availability.

Mark

 

[markcycle]

That motors coming out dude! Hope you feel better!

OK the motor is coming out My friend is going to pull it for me as soon as the first Hollow axle unit is ready

I bow to the masses

Mark

 

[Jay64]

Ah, the sweet smell of peer pressure. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mark, glad to hear that you are starting to feel a little better. I will work on getting you more of those different measurements.

 

[markcycle]

While I am waiting for the hollow axle prototype I Delta connected the motor to verify the theory. The measurements are as follows. I got the expected 1.73 times the speed and the same reduction in torque. The test wasn't all positive. It turns out the Wye connected motor doesn't support circulating parasitic currents which as it turns out can be substantial in a non sinusoidal controller. The Kelly controller seemed to not like the Delta connected motor and intermittently shut down, ran hot during hard acceleration, something that never happened with the Wye connected motor no mater how hard I ran the motor. I believe that circulating parasitic currents resulted in very high phase currents and caused the controller to shut down intermittently and run hot.

I would be interested in what others have experienced with Delta connected brushless motors.

Mark

 

[Doctorbass]

While I am waiting for the hollow axle prototype I Delta connected the motor to verify the theory. The measurements are as follows. I got the expected 1.73 times the speed and the same reduction in torque. The test wasn't all positive. It turns out the Wye connected motor doesn't support circulating parasitic currents which as it turns out can be substantial in a non sinusoidal controller. The Kelly controller seemed to not like the Delta connected motor and intermittently shut down, ran hot during hard acceleration, something that never happened with the Wye connected motor no mater how hard I ran the motor. I believe that circulating parasitic currents resulted in very high phase currents and caused the controller to shut down intermittently and run hot.

I would be interested in what others have experienced with Delta connected brushless motors.

Mark

Wow.. Now that's something interesting to me! Thanks for this little report Mark!

I found many interesting link about WYE and delta switching caracteristics

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=613

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/wyedelta-in-perspective.aspx
ou ceci:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=228511&page=7

http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/wyedelta-in-perspective.aspx

The method of selecting between Wye and Delta is also an important factor. Many systems use the wye/delta selection like a gear change where the users must pick a gear before even starting the spindle. There is a more powerful technique which is called switching "on-the-fly." With this method, the system starts out in the low-speed Wye winding and changes to the high speed Delta winding when the spindle speed reaches a point where performance would be improved.

STAR (WYE)-DELTA STARTING MOTOR
For resistor applications used on Star (Wye) -Delta type motors, ( CLOSED TRANSITION ) the resistors are connected to the motor winding before the delta contactor is closed.

The resistors are used to avoid the possibility of high inrush current when the winding is momentarily open – circuited when switching from Star (Wye) to Delta Winding configuration on the motor, therefore providing a smoother acceleration of the motor.

and thisone is VERY informative on the moment where the transistion is done and the effect!
http://www.mastercontrols.com/EngInfo/Articles/Wooddall/TA_RWood.htm




Page 6 here show current vs time in switching from WYE to delta
http://www.scialert.net/pdfs/jas/20...id=jhfgJKH78Jgh7GkjH7Gkjg57KJhT68JKHgh76JG7Ff


You are probably aware that under a standard star/delta arrangement, the motor is temporarily disconnected from supply during the transition from star to delta.

When the motor is reconnected to supply (through energising the delta contactor) the generated voltage from the spinning motor is not necessarily in phase with the supply voltage.

The worst case scinareo is that the two voltages add together thus exposing the motor to a maximum of twice supply voltage for a very short period of time, eg 40 milliSeconds. This causes a current transient of twice locked rotor current (typically 12 - 16 times motor rated current) and a torque transient of 4 times locked rotor torque. It is therefore fair to say that a star/delta starter causes more severe electrical and mechancial stress than Direct on Line or Full Voltage Starting.
The idea behind closed transition star/delta is to ensure the motor remains connected to supply (via resistors) during the transition from star to delta. This will act to greatly reduce the current and torque transients mentioned above to more acceptable levels.
source:http://www.lmpforum.com/inforum/Closed-Transition-Wye-Del-t91.html


I hope that give you some idea or help you to figure out how to limit the spike votlages.

Doc

 

[markcycle]

Here is where I got the information on parasitic electrical currents hurting the efficiency of a brushless motors

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor

A motor with windings in delta configuration gives low torque at low rpm, but can give higher top rpm. Wye configuration gives high torque at low rpm, but not as high top rpm. [1]

Although efficiency is greatly affected by the motor's construction, the wye winding is normally more efficient. In delta-connected windings, half voltage is applied across the windings adjacent to the undriven lead (compared to the winding directly between the driven leads), increasing resistive losses. In addition, windings can allow high-frequency parasitic electrical currents to circulate entirely within the motor. A wye-connected winding does not contain a closed loop in which parasitic currents can flow, preventing such losses.

From a controller standpoint, the two styles of windings are treated exactly the same, although some less expensive controllers are intended to read voltage from the common center of the wye winding.

I need to do more research on the subject

Mark

 

[Electro-Schmitt]

One thing that always kept me from experimenting with hub motors on my bikes is that all the hub motors I saw had a fixed axle to fit in drop outs, while most of my motorcycles have the axle slide through the forks or swing arm. Are you going to have a motor that has a slide through axle?

I agree with Jay. The fixed axle vs. slide-through could be a deal breaker for a lot of people. I guess that's why Baskin-Robbins doesn't just sell vanilla -- but you've got to start somewhere.

Good work so far. Keep it up.

 

[markcycle]

One thing that always kept me from experimenting with hub motors on my bikes is that all the hub motors I saw had a fixed axle to fit in drop outs, while most of my motorcycles have the axle slide through the forks or swing arm. Are you going to have a motor that has a slide through axle?

I agree with Jay. The fixed axle vs. slide-through could be a deal breaker for a lot of people. I guess that's why Baskin-Robbins doesn't just sell vanilla -- but you've got to start somewhere.

Good work so far. Keep it up.

I guess you didn't read the whole thread

The hollow axle version will be in my hand by the end of February

 

[Electro-Schmitt]

I guess you didn't read the whole thread

The hollow axle version will be in my hand by the end of February

Not so much "didn't read" as much as "didn't pay attention." I was focusing on your performance data and other info, and the discussion of your hollow axle prototype failed to register.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Jay64]

Mark, I've had a few people contact me about helping them get their bikes converted and I think your hub motor would be perfect for a couple of them.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I'm definitely interested in this project, but I don't understand how the hollow-axle version of the motor is secured. Obviously with bicycle hub motors, the stator is welded onto the axle, so to prevent it from spinning you just prevent the axle from spinning. But with your motor, the axle is a regular motorcycle axle, so how is the stator position fixed?

 

[markcycle]

I'm definitely interested in this project, but I don't understand how the hollow-axle version of the motor is secured. Obviously with bicycle hub motors, the stator is welded onto the axle, so to prevent it from spinning you just prevent the axle from spinning. But with your motor, the axle is a regular motorcycle axle, so how is the stator position fixed?

It's a axle in a axle design. The outer axle is connected to the stator and fixed from rotating by the torque arm. The outer axle has a hole through it for the inner motorcycle axle. The inner axle fixes the motor to the bike but its the outer axle that prevents stator rotation.

Mark

 

[CGameProgrammer]

Oh, I see... though that bend in the torque arm looks like a significant structural weak spot, but I'm not an engineer.

How will you be keeping dirt and water from getting in the motor? If you don't take that into account and protect against them, all motors would be doomed to failure eventually.

 

[ZapPat]

While I am waiting for the hollow axle prototype I Delta connected the motor to verify the theory. The measurements are as follows. I got the expected 1.73 times the speed and the same reduction in torque. The test wasn't all positive. It turns out the Wye connected motor doesn't support circulating parasitic currents which as it turns out can be substantial in a non sinusoidal controller. The Kelly controller seemed to not like the Delta connected motor and intermittently shut down, ran hot during hard acceleration, something that never happened with the Wye connected motor no mater how hard I ran the motor. I believe that circulating parasitic currents resulted in very high phase currents and caused the controller to shut down intermittently and run hot.
I would be interested in what others have experienced with Delta connected brushless motors.
Mark

Hi there Mark, I don't often check out the motorcycle area of ES... there's lots of good stuff here for power freaks!

Anyways, I might have an idea of your controller problem. I think it's really the reduced resistance and inductance of your motor that's not being very kind to your controller. In the delta config your phase currents are much larger than with your wye at the same duty cycle, forcing the controller into current limiting much more of the time (your kelly controller is phase current limited, which is equivalent to motor current). You could get as much torque out of the delta, but your going to need a very hefty controller! I wonder also how symetrical all three windings in these cheap motors are, since symmetry is not so important in a wye (as your post about circulating currents mentions).

I haven't read through your whole thread yet, and so am sorry if you already mentioned it, but are you wanting to have a delta/wye switch like Docbass is aiming for? I'm planing on using him as my controller tester, and just for him (for now) I will add outputs for the needed relays to do the switch just at the right time during the commutation period (while the motor is runing of course). Also be aware that many of the links Doc posted above are aimed at three phase AC motor systems, where they have no control over bus voltage like our DC controllers (this makes it easier for us and should help us avoid the potential spark during the change). Anyways, I hope to find out the perfect time to switch the mobile coil in the motor in the next month or two, when I get to that point in my development!

Pat

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark,
I am enjoying the thread about your new "powerful" hub motor. I'm currently working on a leaning three wheeled E-vehicle here in Western NY (Near Rochester).I know you have a lot on your plate but before you do too many runs on that hub motor by all means FIX THE SPOKE PATTERN. Get some longer spokes and lace it up correctly. The current spoke angle will not only restrict the amount of power (Torque) the motor can send to the rim but it can be VERY DANGEROUS! Use the first photos in your discussion as a pattern and work from there if possible.
Keep up the great work.
Regards
John Head
C/O Elegant British Bike Bits.