Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[markcycle]

Mark,
I am enjoying the thread about your new "powerful" hub motor. I'm currently working on a leaning three wheeled E-vehicle here in Western NY (Near Rochester).I know you have a lot on your plate but before you do too many runs on that hub motor by all means FIX THE SPOKE PATTERN. Get some longer spokes and lace it up correctly. The current spoke angle will not only restrict the amount of power (Torque) the motor can send to the rim but it can be VERY DANGEROUS! Use the first photos in your discussion as a pattern and work from there if possible.
Keep up the great work.
Regards
John Head
C/O Elegant British Bike Bits.

Your certainly right about the spoke pattern not being the best way or the strongest way to build a wheel. I haven't made a issue of it with my supplier because there are so many details of the motor design that had to be addressed that I didn't want to overwhelm him. I probably let him do radial spokes for the next prototype as we are working on so many design details for the hollow axle design. At this point the spoke pattern is easy to fix and not worth making a issue about. In the end I'll get motors without rims in many hole numbers 36, 40 and so on. If the motor is a success I'll even have a cast aluminum version. Thanks for the encouragement.

My original wheel was built by a small company out west called Wheel Master. The quality is obvious when a skilled wheel builder builds a wheel.
Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark, I hear you regarding the spokes being at the bottom of the long list of "issues" to be raised. I do quite a bit of lacing and truing on my british motorcycle restorations. Add my name to the list of people interested in purchasing a motor. Will they be available in a 40 hole version? Drop me a line regarding price when they become available to the general public.
Regards
John

 

[markcycle]

Mark, I hear you regarding the spokes being at the bottom of the long list of "issues" to be raised. I do quite a bit of lacing and truing on my british motorcycle restorations. Add my name to the list of people interested in purchasing a motor. Will they be available in a 40 hole version? Drop me a line regarding price when they become available to the general public.
Regards
John

Yes they will be available in a 40 hole version and thanks again your words they help Mitigate the risk of bringing a new product to market. Also, you're in New York so when the weather gets a little nicer (can't wait) come down and give my bike a ride with the motor.

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Thanks Mark for the offer,
Let me know when it's ready to test and drop me a e-mail. I'd like to give it a "spin"
Where are you located?
Regards
John Head

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Mark,
An update and further questions. I have been doing some more "engineering" on my leaning three wheeler and I've come to the conclusion that providing drive with the rear two wheels, while being preferred, adds many complexities. ( differential, multiple chains and sprockets etc.) So I may be in the market for one of your high energy, high powered hub motors after all. I know they are not initially designed for use on the front wheel, HOWEVER I have access to a few of the old style BMW (Earls forks) designed front fork. Using this style of front forks I believe I can utilize your motor. The anti rotation arm would be attached to the (ground parallel) tubes that connect to the axel. This may work for my application and it would be the first "e-motorized front wheel drive" leaning three wheeled concept (that I am aware of)?
The "Leaning linkage" can be adjusted to limit the amount of lean possible. Therefore if I was to slip on a wet serface, or over torque the front wheel throttle I would not "totally" fall over? Let me know when your motors become available and once again.
Best wishes
John

 

[Hafting]

While I am waiting for the hollow axle prototype I Delta connected the motor to verify the theory. The measurements are as follows. I got the expected 1.73 times the speed and the same reduction in torque. The test wasn't all positive. It turns out the Wye connected motor doesn't support circulating parasitic currents which as it turns out can be substantial in a non sinusoidal controller. The Kelly controller seemed to not like the Delta connected motor and intermittently shut down, ran hot during hard acceleration, something that never happened with the Wye connected motor no mater how hard I ran the motor. I believe that circulating parasitic currents resulted in very high phase currents and caused the controller to shut down intermittently and run hot.

I would be interested in what others have experienced with Delta connected brushless motors.

Mark

There is a third alternative to delta and wye. Consider not connecting the phases to each other, drive them independently. That means 6 wires out of the motor instead of 3. Two for each set of coils. This gives some interesting options.

The user can switch between delta ans wye - it'll be somewhat similiar to shifting gears. Start in wye, switch to delta to get higher speed (but less acceleration to get there.)

And then there is the third option, which is to drive the three phases independently. With wye, two phases are connected in series and the third one is unused. With no connection between phases, it is possible to drive them with the same "firing pattern" as wye, but connected in parallel instead of series. Each set of coils will then see twice the voltage of a wye setup, and draw twice as much current. That means 4 times the power, 2 times the torque, and it doubles the (unloaded) max speed. wind resistance probably means you won't double the real max speed. Just like wye, there is no circulating currents. A controller made for this setup is necessary.
The effect is exactly the same as doubling the voltage to a wye setup - and that may be an easier way. (Have two battery banks, use a switch to connect them either in series or parallel). Still, one can use both tricks in order to run the engine with good efficiency over a wider speed range. A hub motor is more efficient close to its max speed. High-torque/acceleration low-maxspeed for starting. Closer to that low maxspeed, double it by changing to parallel coils. When the new maxspeed is reached, double it again by reconfiguring the batteries. You don't want to use the highest speed setup when going slowly - not only is there less acceleration, but the engine might run too hot from inefficiency.

 

[CGameProgrammer]

That's a great idea but where would you get the controller?

Another thing you might want to design into the motor is a provision for water-cooling. Just a thought but you could maybe put an threaded inlet and outlet on the side of the stator, with caps on them to seal them when they're not being used.

 

[Doctorbass]

Another thing you might want to design into the motor is a provision for water-cooling. Just a thought but you could maybe put an threaded inlet and outlet on the side of the stator, with caps on them to seal them when they're not being used.

That in my to do list :wink:

I agree that for a independent delta coil wiring the controlelr would need to have 6 wires output too! :|

I just hope my 18 4110 fets controller will handle well the delta config from 55kph to 105kph at 8000W :lol:

Doc

 

[markcycle]

That's a great idea but where would you get the controller?

Another thing you might want to design into the motor is a provision for water-cooling. Just a thought but you could maybe put an threaded inlet and outlet on the side of the stator, with caps on them to seal them when they're not being used.

Water cooling is on my todo list. My design lends itself well to water cooling because of the 60mm Dia. hollow axle. It will be easy to bring tubes or drill the axle for water fittings.

While I'm here I'll post an update

I will have the Hollow axle prototype next week, thats pretty exciting. I stripped the motor out of the Lifan, I'll post pictures latter and i ordered Thundersky batteries from Elite power and they will be at my door on Monday. Lots going on. I have a price for the motor and rim but I can't post it just yet, as I am still working out details with the vendor. I think within 2 to 3 weeks I will be able to accept orders for the motor. But more important is that in a few weeks I'll have a hollow axle motor running a motorcycle, set up at 106 volts and 40AH. I'll be able to show what can be done when the motor is removed from the center of the frame.

Mark

 

[oatnet]

i ordered Thundersky batteries from Elite power and they will be at my door on Monday.

Hey Mark!

I didn't realize that you went with the T-sky over the Headways - I'll be interested to see how they work for you. Did ElitePower work with you on a pack price, or did you still pay $2/cell-ah?

I too have been considering making my next 48v80 pack from T-sky cells, JungleMotors (ebay ID digita1drumr - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190285533135 ) was listing them for just over $1.50/cell-ah, I'll have to see if Victoria can compete with those prices. The T-Sky are more convenient to install, but I think they are rated at 3c and the headway's are 'rated' at 5c. If my drain turns out to rarely go over 240a, then a 2p of the t-sky 40ah cells could be on the short list.

It would also be interesting to put headway and T-sky packs in series to compare them - they should be exposed to the same loads...

-JD

 

[markcycle]

i ordered Thundersky batteries from Elite power and they will be at my door on Monday.

Hey Mark!

I didn't realize that you went with the T-sky over the Headways - I'll be interested to see how they work for you. Did ElitePower work with you on a pack price, or did you still pay $2/cell-ah?

I too have been considering making my next 48v80 pack from T-sky cells, JungleMotors (ebay ID digita1drumr - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190285533135 ) was listing them for just over $1.50/cell-ah, I'll have to see if Victoria can compete with those prices. The T-Sky are more convenient to install, but I think they are rated at 3c and the headway's are 'rated' at 5c. If my drain turns out to rarely go over 240a, then a 2p of the t-sky 40ah cells could be on the short list.

It would also be interesting to put headway and T-sky packs in series to compare them - they should be exposed to the same loads...

-JD

I went with ThunderSky because of the ease factor
I purchased 2 48 volt 40AH systems with charger at the published price. If I subtrack the cost of the charger from the package I paid 67 per 40AH cell which is 1.67 per AH VS Jungle motor which quoted me 64 for 40AH cell or 1.6 per AH. I went with Elite power because I like the charger they offered with the package deal. Every time I go to Elite web page the price goes up 3 weeks ago a 40AH cell was 68 dollars now its 80. So what I'm saying is old news.
There service so far seems good they shipped quickly but the quality of the cells is yet to be determined.

Mark

 

[oatnet]

I went with ThunderSky because of the ease factor
I purchased 2 48 volt 40AH systems with charger at the published price. If I subtrack the cost of the charger from the package I paid 67 per 40AH cell which is 1.67 per AH VS Jungle motor which quoted me 64 for 40AH cell or 1.6 per AH. I went with Elite power because I like the charger they offered with the package deal. Every time I go to Elite web page the price goes up 3 weeks ago a 40AH cell was 68 dollars now its 80. So what I'm saying is old news.
There service so far seems good they shipped quickly but the quality of the cells is yet to be determined.

Mark

Thanks for sharing your pricing details, I would have made the same choice and still might. I lend a lot of creedence to your opinion so I'll be really interested to see how you think they perform.

-JD

 

[markcycle]

Here is the Lifan as I take her apart waiting for me to start the battery box

Mark

 

[pgt400]

Sky Energy quoted me $75 for 60AH cells and $50 each for 40AH cells, including straps and connecting bars. They claim their cells are better the TS cells. Specs appear the same, blue in color.

I went with ThunderSky because of the ease factor
I purchased 2 48 volt 40AH systems with charger at the published price. If I subtrack the cost of the charger from the package I paid 67 per 40AH cell which is 1.67 per AH VS Jungle motor which quoted me 64 for 40AH cell or 1.6 per AH. I went with Elite power because I like the charger they offered with the package deal. Every time I go to Elite web page the price goes up 3 weeks ago a 40AH cell was 68 dollars now its 80. So what I'm saying is old news.
There service so far seems good they shipped quickly but the quality of the cells is yet to be determined.

Mark

Thanks for sharing your pricing details, I would have made the same choice and still might. I lend a lot of creedence to your opinion so I'll be really interested to see how you think they perform.

-JD

 

[markcycle]

Sky Energy quoted me $75 for 60AH cells and $50 each for 40AH cells, including straps and connecting bars. They claim their cells are better the TS cells. Specs appear the same, blue in color.

I went with ThunderSky because of the ease factor
I purchased 2 48 volt 40AH systems with charger at the published price. If I subtrack the cost of the charger from the package I paid 67 per 40AH cell which is 1.67 per AH VS Jungle motor which quoted me 64 for 40AH cell or 1.6 per AH. I went with Elite power because I like the charger they offered with the package deal. Every time I go to Elite web page the price goes up 3 weeks ago a 40AH cell was 68 dollars now its 80. So what I'm saying is old news.
There service so far seems good they shipped quickly but the quality of the cells is yet to be determined.

Mark

Thanks for sharing your pricing details, I would have made the same choice and still might. I lend a lot of creedence to your opinion so I'll be really interested to see how you think they perform.

-JD

It's almost impossible to figure out what is the best value for a given application.
without an independent testing labs testing each manufacture to the same standards. I just went with my gut feelings for what I think is a safe bet. For me it was between Headway, HiPower, and thundersky. I am having good luck with HiPower cells but I would need to import them from china as I could not find a domestic source for the cells. I decided I didn't want to deal with importing batteries. There are some new regulations with putting Lithium batteries on airplanes and I want to see how that plays out before I risk 2 or 3 thousands dollars(currently I have not heard of any problems). So that's why I went with Thundersky. Time will tell if that is a good decision.

Sky energy is quoting you a great price but you have to figure the shipping from China for the real price. It could be as much as 10 dollars per cell for shipping and no real warranty. Elite give a 1 year warranty so that is something to consider.
In the end you have to determine how much risk your willing to take and accept the results both positive and negative.

Mark

 

[pgt400]

Agreed, I wouldn't buy from them without a referance source. They quoted me $500 for shipping.....$20 per cell.

I am leaning towards Headway but wanted to see how the group buy cells fared.....taking them forevere to get them.

 

[gogo]

I may have found an application for your hub motors. When they changed the Iowa law in 2006 to allow electric bicycles as bicycles, they deleted the engine size and power restrictions for mopeds. This would require a motor wind that was appropriate to 30 MPH of course.

With all the regen development going on in infineon controllers it may be easy to use the moped engine to keep the batteries charged.

Talk about a sleeper though! Can you imagine the crotch rocket and Harley riders having to flog their mounts to keep up with the two stroke smoke?

 

[Hafting]

That's a great idea but where would you get the controller?

Use a standard controller and some extra transistors. The driving pattern and hall effect sensor setup is the same, after all. There may be issues with a sensorless setup, as sensorless uses a winding for sensing position. For schematics, take a look at:
http://www.aitel.hist.no/~helgehaf/ebike/parallel-bldc.pdf

 

[BiGH]

definitely get one that is local or at least has a full service center locally. My headway bms died, and because the replacement part they sent didn't work the whole pack got sent back to china. I still don't have it back yet, and its been 3 months!

 

[markcycle]

Preparing the Lifan for the MHM-602 Hub Motor Here I'm building the battery tray. There will be 2 levels of batteries this is the lower level

Also cutting out the gas tank

 

[sonicyellow]

Well Mark, add me to your list of purchasers. I'm going to be building an electric motorcycle this summer. I've actually been looking for a good long time to find a motor that could reasonably (and safely) power a motorcycle at normal road-speeds. So THANK YOU for taking the initiative!

You know, you might think about contacting battery and controller suppliers and let them know what you're up to - they might give you a discount if folks like me can purchase everything through you. Just a thought.

Anyway, very psyched about this project! Keep up the good work!

Bill

 

[markcycle]

Well Mark, add me to your list of purchasers. I'm going to be building an electric motorcycle this summer. I've actually been looking for a good long time to find a motor that could reasonably (and safely) power a motorcycle at normal road-speeds. So THANK YOU for taking the initiative!

You know, you might think about contacting battery and controller suppliers and let them know what you're up to - they might give you a discount if folks like me can purchase everything through you. Just a thought.

Anyway, very psyched about this project! Keep up the good work!

Bill

Thanks
I hope to be able to offer a controller with the motor. I'm working on it. The Kelly controller people really don't offer any discount for resellers so there out. and batteries require to much up front investment. I will still recomend the Kelly Controller for best performance, as it is a great product, but very expensive. For good performance but not great performance I hope to offer a controller for half as much.

Mark

 

[markcycle]

Back onto the batteries
Todd Kolin of Electricmotorsport had advised me when I purchased my HiPower batteries to do a one time charge with all the batteries in parallel and told me if I did this the batteries would stay in balance. His advice worked with the HiPower cells. I use no LVC or charge balancing with the HiPower, I just check them at the end of a ride to see how they are doing. After 3500 miles the batteries have stayed balanced.

So with the Thundersky cells I wired them in parallel and with a charger Todd sold me, I am charger them in parallel in 2 groups of 16 cells, this is the first group being charged

we'll see how well this method works with Thundersky cells
Mark

 

[oatnet]

Nice to see batteries in place, Mark! You are packing a lot of cells in there, it should be a screamer.

-JD

 

[JRP3]

Nice stuff! Maybe I missed it but how waterproof will the motor be? Submersible or just splash resistant?
Why do you have the torque arm pointing down then connecting at an angle instead of just parallel to the swing arm?
What voltage and current are you parallel charging the TS cells with?